Mbbhat's Views and Churnings

To discuss the BK and PBK versions relating to the progressive differential development of BK & PBK ideologies or theologies.
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mbbhat
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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 10 Sep 2012

# post No. 47

3)SM 15-3-78(3):- Devtaayein chaahte hain hum Brahma Bhojan khaaven. TO BABA, Mama AUR PHIR OOPAR SE DEVTAAVON KI AATMA AATEE HAIN, VAH BAITH KHATEE HAIN. PHIR BHI RUCHE SE TAB KHAAVENGE JAB PAKANEVAALE YOGI HO. Devtaayein Brahma Bhojan kee mahimaa karte hain. Baaki Baap to kahte hain main ayaa hun tumhaaree service karne. Hum to tumhaaraa pooraa nishkaami servant hun. Tum bhal 36 prakaar to kyaa 108 prakaar kaa Bhog lagaavo. Bhakton ne hee Bhog lagaayaa aur bhakton ne baantkar khaayaa.

= Deities wish to eat Brahma bhojan. So, Mama, Baba and then souls of deities from above come and sit and eat(!)... [Who eats? Who are deity souls that come from above?]- to what period Baba has said this? why they desire Brahma bhojan? ... ]

I think here- Baba is saying so to praise brahma bhojan

4)SM 21-6-72(1):- Krishn ko bhagavaan nahin kaha ja saktaa. Vah to manushy hai. Devi devtaa dharm ka hai. VAASTAV MAY DEVTAAYEIN BVS SOOKHSMVATAN MAY HEE RAHTE HAIN. Yahaan manushy rahte hain. Manushy ko sookshmvatanvaasi devtaa nahin kah saktey. Brahma devtaayaa namaha, Vishnu devtaaya namaha kahte hain na. Vah hai devi devtaa dharm. Sri lakshmi devi, Sri Narayan devtaa. -200 [BVS, wot, Subtle Region]

= actually deities BVS reside in Subtle Region itself.

Here Baba is discriminating between human deities and the subtle deities and bring the conscious of the people to this corporeal world so that let them understand that Golden Age really existed in Physical World.

5)SM 3-2-76( 2):- Vishnu ke do roop LN hain, jo nayi duniyaa may raajy karte hain. Baaki 4 bhujavaalaa manushy koyi hota nahin. Yah sookshmvatan may aim object dikhaate hain pravruttimaarg kaa. -48

= .....In Subtle Region the aim object of pravruttimarg is shown.

See- Aim object is shown in Subtle Region!

So- when Baba uses /places three deities in Trimurti picture , then some place of residence also should be given to them, is it not? so- it is shown in Subtle Region! - i think so.

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 10 Sep 2012

# Post No. 48

6)SM 15-11-83(2):- Brahma ki raath do yug, phir Brahma ka din, do yug. Manushy toh samajhte nahin. PHIR KAHENGE BRAHMA TOH SOOKSHMVATAN MAY HAIN. Parantu Prajapita toh zaroor yahaan hi hoga. -48- [Prajapita]

= ...... Two ages are nights of Brahma. Two ages are days of brahma. People do not understand. Then (they) say brahma is in Subtle Region. But Prajapita should be here, is it not?

See- Baba points that lowkik people believe Brahma is in some world above.
------------
7)The following Murli point is special:- It says Baba uses and gives vision of Bhaktimarg picture (even though not real) as it is and then explains the meaning. This may be the reason why Baba says- without picture of Subtle Region it would be difficult to explain knowledge (especially in the beginning)

SM 12-11-80(1):- Sookshmvatan may faristey rahte hain. Vahaan haddi maans hota nahin. Devtaavon ko to haddi maans hai na. Vah isee Bharat may raajy karke gaye hain. Yah baatein naya koyi suney to samajh na sakey. Yah to samajh ki baath hai na. Brahma so Vishnu, Vishnu so Brahma. Vishnu naabhi kamal se Brahma kyon dikhaayaa hai. SOOKSHMVATAN MAY TO YAH BAATEIN HOTI NAHIN. Na javaahaaraat aadi ho sakti hai. ISLIYE BRAHMA KO SAFED POSHDHAARI BRAAHMAN DIKHAATE HAIN. AUR KUCH NAHIN HAI. Prajapita Brahma saadhaaran manushy bahut janmon ke anth may gareeb huvaa na. IS SAMAY HAI HI KHAADI KE KAPDEY. Vah bichaarey samajhtey nahin sookshm sharir bhi kyaa hota hai. Tumko Baap samjhaate hain vahaan hai hi faristey jinko haddi maans nahin hotaa. Sookshmvatan may to yah shrungaar aadi honaa na chaahiye. PARANTU CHITRON MAY DIKHAAYAA HAI TO BABA USKAA HI SAAKSHAATKAAR KARAAKAR FIR ARTH SAMJHAATE HAIN. Jaise hanuman ka saakshaatkaar karaate hain. Ab hanuman jaisaa manushy koyi hota nahin jo chitr hai. Nahin. Bhakti MAY BANAAYE GAYE HAIN. TO BAAP ARTH SAMJHAATE HAIN. Bhaktimarg may to anek chitr banaaye hain. Jinkaa vishwaas baith gayaa hai unko aisaa kuch bolo to bigad padtey. Deviyaan aadi ki itni poojaa karte hain. Fir dubo dete hain. Nahin doobti hai to panda unkey oopar baith_kar kahte doob jaavo. Yah sab hai Bhaktimarg. -52 [Prajapita, WOT, vision, chitr]

= ... but since it is shown in pictures, Baba gives vision of the same and then explains. eg- Hanuman. but actually there will be no man like picture shown in hanuman's picture. People in Bhaktimarg have some belief in those pictures. If you say something to them, they will get upset. ...


8)SM 10-6-82(2):- Sachchaa preetham ek hai. Ek ka hee naam lete hain. Tum sab samajhte ho humko preetham milaa huvaa hai. Abhi is Madhuban may saadhaaran Brahma ke tan may baithey hain. Tum BKKyaan ho. SABKO YAH SAMJHAAVO KI BRAHMAKUMAARIYON KE AAGE PRAJAPITA AKSHAR NA AANE SE BHI MOONJH HO JAATI HAI. PRAJAPITA KO TOH SABHI JAANTE HAIN. BRAHMA KO PHIR SOOKSHMVATANVAASI SAMAJH LETE HAIN. Tum Prajapita Brahma kahenge. Tum samjhenge Prajapita BKKyaan barobar hain. Isliye poochaa jaataa hai Prajapita Brahma se kyaa sambandh hai? Pita akshar to pahley hai hi. SHIV KO PARAMPITA PARMATMA KAHTE HAIN. AUR KOYI KA PARMATMA NAAM NAHIN HAI. Ab tum jaan gaye ho ki ek hai paarlowkik parampita doosra hai Prajapita Brahma. Lowkik Baap ko toh jaante hi hai. TUMNEY TEEN PITAAVON KO AB SAMJHAA HAI AUR KOYI DUNIYAA MAY NAHIN JAANTEY. -54 [Prajapita, ShivBaba]

= Tell all that without placing name Prajapita in front of BK people will get confused. All know the personality Prajapita (in one or other way- like Prajapati, Adam, Adi Dev, etc). they think brahma is at Subtle Region. You say Prajapita Brahma. You understand actually Prajapita BKK practically exist. Hence it is asked- what is your realtion with Prajapita? ...

Here also Baba says- lowkik people believe that Brahma is in Subtle Region. But, when the word Prajapita is added to that, then only they will realize- Oh- yes, he should be here. then who made him as Prajapita ? Definitely God only can make him so. how can god make him so? By incarnating in him....blah, blah, blah

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 10 Sep 2012

# post No. 49

9)Another point where Baba points- lowkik people believe that brahma resides above.

SM 12-6-72(1):- Hum niraakaar Baap ke bachche hain. Unkey sammukh baithey hain. PBKKyaan hain. PRAJAPITA AKSHAR NA DAALNEY SE MANUSHY MOONJHTE HAIN. SAMAJHTEY HAIN BRAHMA TO SOOKSHMVATANVAASI DEVTAA HAI. VAH PHIR YAHAAN KAHAAN SE AAYAA? Kahte hain brahma devtaayaa namaha, Shankar devtaayaa namaha. -189 [Prajapita, WOT]

=... If you do not put word Prajapita, people will get confused. They think Brahma as deity in Subtle Region. Then How he came here? ...

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by fluffy bunny » 10 Sep 2012

So are you saying BapDada some how "anesthetizes" Gulzar and she does not leave her body?
mbbhat wrote:Just think- why ShivBaba does not experience anything when he enters a body. He has power of aneasthisia in himself as natural. ... So- one cannot judge by coughing of Dadi - that- soul of Brahma Baba is incomplete.
The question is not if he 'feels' it or not ... I have no idea, I cannot remember anyone asking BapDada such simple, logical questions ... but what 'causes' it.

Even effect has a cause according to the Law of Karma ... so whose karma is the "impure/negative" cough. I understand this is the point being made.

All the rest, e.g. Shiva having the power of aneasthisia, has no foundation at all in the Knowledge. You're proving yourself how myths, legends and Bhakti is created by human imagination.

I remember the BKs once telling us that Gulzar does not like bananas and yet when BapDada comes, he eats bananas and this is "proof" god and Lekhraj Kirpalani must be within her body.

Such examples prove the level of mentality we are dealing with.

Do possessing spirits exist or not? Indeed the phenomenon arises all over the world and people under their influences, whatever it may be, do strange and fantastic things. Unfortunately, one aspect about them appears to be universal, is that what they say is never 100% accurate and they are inconsistent. DIfferent peoples have different theories about what these possessing spirits or altered states of consciousness are ... a common one is of "hungry ghosts". Hungry for material existence ... or in the case of Lekhraj Kirpalani ... bananas.

I always thought it was a bit of Maya and Bhakti to give Lekhraj Kirpalani a new pair of brassiere and panties each time he came back and entered Gulzar, and wondered what they did with them afterwards. cannot he just have a minimum of three pairs like everyone else? (... one clean, one in the wash and one spare).

It would interested to ask him what entering a female body felt like and how he experienced it. Of course, the problem with that is it says in the Murlis that he does not enter a virgin (female).

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 11 Sep 2012

# Post No. 50

You did not understood what i meant.

1)Bodiless stage gives power of anesthesia. What i am saying is that- soul of brahma baba also has that power. So- both ShivBaba and brahma Baba have that capacity. So- they will not experience even when they are in the body.

2)Gulzar Dadi had gone to trance like stage- like perfect deep sleep- hence will not expereince.

That is all.
----
No one will experience the pain. It is just a physical change in the body.

In a body being operated by a doctor- no one experiences pain.

So- these are like that. In the latter, there is physical anesthesia . but in the former, Brahma Baba has it in himself already.

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by fluffy bunny » 11 Sep 2012

So, would you say BapDada/Lekhraj Kirpalani does not taste the Banana, smell the agarbatti?

There is variance here because, at least in the past, the BKWSU has also said the soul of Gulzar goes off to the Subtle Regions and is not present. I had no idea which is true.

I suspect your idea that she stays in the body but enters a deep, hypnotic trance and then is overshadowed or possessed by BapDada is more likely.

I understand what you say about bodilessness and anaesthesia but I say again it does not address the issue in question of whose karma causes the cough?

I think the idea that Lekhraj Kirpalani is not entirely perfect, that he has a small amount of karma or attachment left and so cannot let go of this world, is a reasonable and logical enough idea within the framework of spiritual understanding.

I don't see why the BKs should be so upset at the suggestion ... except that because it challenges their pride and all their false claims.

If the BKs had been more modest about their claims, and exaggerated about Lekhraj Kirpalani less, they would not be in the mess they are in now.

There are elements of truth to the PBKs observations and VDDs findings. I think the reason that Prakashmani got so upset with him and banished him was that he was digging too deep, demanding too much truth of them, and finding things that they wanted hidden.

The BK leaders just want mild mannered, frightened sheep they can control easily and pull the fleece off ... not real truth seekers.

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 11 Sep 2012

# Post No. 51
fluffy bunny wrote:So, would you say BapDada/Lekhraj Kirpalani does not taste the Banana, smell the agarbatti?
Yes. [but for me- that is not very important. Because even ShivBaba had said- once- i can take smell, another time- hey why should i take even smell?- what i say- is one cannot accuse so about soul of Brahma Baba just by coughing of Gulzar Dadi]-
There is variance here
I agree. BKWSU had been saying that- it is Brahma Baba eats the food.

What i am saying is- it is OK even if anyone eats it, but no one feels it.

simple thing:- the food after going into stomach, no one has control over it. It passes naturally. so- why not ShivBaba and Brahma Baba put food into mouth naturally without any feeling? what forces anyone of them to feel it?
I understand what you say about bodilessness and anaesthesia but I say again it does not address the issue in question of whose karma causes the cough?
There is no karma at all. When a person is operated, his body is cut. But he does not feel any pain. then what karma is there?

while sleeping if anything happens and the soul does not experience- what karma is there? Of course, the effect of cough or anything that comes out after she wakes up- that is her karmic account then.
I think the idea that Lekhraj Kirpalani is not entirely perfect, that he has a small amount of karma or attachment left and so cannot let go of this world, is a reasonable and logical enough idea within the framework of spiritual understanding.
Then why should ShivBaba come to this impure world from Paramdham? Is it his imperfection?

I think- there is a great secret in it. BB gets real title of creator. Actually- the wonderful part of DL is he is always present in the Murli speech, which makes him new world maker. that is why the rudrmala becomes vishnumala.

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 11 Sep 2012

# Post No. 52

Example No. 15:- Murli Cuts/Edits and errors:-

1a)SM 12-12-77(2):- ShivBaba samjhaate rahte hain. Kab koyi shaastr nahin uthaayaa jaataa. Baba sunaa rahe hain. Yah bhi kahte hai main main sun raha hun. Baab nahin hai toh yah bhi sunaate hain. ISMEY BABA HAI. ISLIYE BRAHMA KAA NAAM ITNAA NAHIN HAI. Ajmer may ek mandir banaaya hai. Parantu kuch samajhte nahin. Krishn ko Murli dee hai, Saraswati ko Benjo diyaa hai. Godess of Knowledge Saraswati ko kahte hain. GOD OF KNOWLEDGE BRAHMA KE BADLEY PHIR KRISHN KO KAH DIYAA HAI. Moonhj gaye hain. Baap baith samjhaate hain Trimurti may Krishn toh hai nahin. Bhal karke hain, parantu gupt. RK hee phir LN bante hain. Yah bhi kisko pataa nahin hai. -152-
[SP, rath, Prajapita, gyaan]


1b)SM 12-11-82(2):- ShivBaba samjhaate rahte hain. Kab koyi shaastr nahin uthaayaa jaataa. Baba sunaa rahe hain. Yah bhi kahte hai main main sun raha hun. Baab nahin hai toh yah bhi sunaate hain. ISMEY BABA HAI. ISLIYE BRAHMA KAA NAAM ITNAA HAI. Ajmer may ek mandir banaaya hai. Parantu kuch samajhte nahin. Krishn ko Murli dee hai, Saraswati ko Benjo diyaa hai. Godess of Knowledge Saraswati ko kahte hain. GOD OF KNOWLEDGE BRAHMA KE BADLEY PHIR KRISHN KO KAH DIYAA HAI. Moonhj gaye hain. Baap baith samjhaate hain Trimurti may Krishn toh hai nahin. Bhal karke hain, parantu gupt. RK hee phir LN bante hain. Yah bhi kisko pataa nahin hai. -152-

[Note:- "NAHIN" = "not" is omitted from the orginal Murli dated SM 12-12-77(2) by foolishness. Here the bk who edited Murli point later might have thought that – “”Oh brahma kaa naam toh hai. Because in many Murlis, Baba says Brahma is famous. Hence he might have removed the word “Nahin” from the line - ISMEY BABA HAI. ISLIYE BRAHMA KAA NAAM ITNAA NAHIN HAI.
[But in fact, here Baba is commenting about worshipping of Brahma ]
---------------

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 11 Sep 2012

# post No. 53


2)SM 13-12-77(1):- Drama may harek yug ki rasm rivaaz apni2 hai. Yah Baap baith samjhaate hain. Kyonki Baap hee knowledgeful hai. HAI YAH BHI BABA, VAH BHI BABA. VAH BHI CREATOR, YAH BHI CREATOR. Brahma dwara create karte hain, adopt karte hain na. Adopt arthaat apnaa banaayaa jataa hai. -149- [special, prajapita, rath]

SM 11-11-82(1):- Drama may harek yug ki rasm rivaaz apni2 hai. Yah Baap baith samjhaate hain. Kyonki Baap hee knowledgeful hai. HAI YAH BHI BAAP, VAH BHI BAAP. VAH BHI CREATOR, YAH BHI CREATOR. Brahma dwara create karte hain, adopt karte hain na. Adopt arthaat apnaa banaayaa jataa hai. -49- [special, prajapita, rath]

[We can see here at one place it is Baap and another place it is Baba]

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 11 Sep 2012

# Post No. 54

Here- there is error even in the year. I have seen some Murlis where the year would be typed as wrong.


SM 9-11-87(2):- Raja to thode banenge. Ek raja ki dher praja banti hai. Purushaaarth oonch karna chaahiye. Raajaavon may bhi koyi badaa raja, koyi chotaa. Bharat may kiteey raajaayien hain. Foreign may ek hi hai. Bharat may raajaayein chale aate hain. Satyug MAY BAHUT RAAJAAYEIN BAHUT MAHARAJAAYEIN HOTE HAIN. Maharajavon ke prince princess bhi hote hain. Maharajavon ke bahut property bhi koti hai. Rajavon ko kum hoti hai. Abhi to praja ka praja par raajy hai. – 108- [Kings, SP]

SM 18--11-78(2):- Praja toh bahut ban_ni hai. Raja phir bhi Raja hai. Ek2 raja ki laakhon praja rahti hain. Purushaaarth toh oonch karna chaahiye. Raajaavon may bhi koyi badaa raja, koyi chotaa raja. Bharat may kitney raajaayien hain. Us taraf (Foreign may) dekhenge ek hi hai. Yahaan se hi chalaa aayaa hai. Satyug MAY BHI BAHUT RAAJAAYEIN BAHUT MAHARAJAAYEIN HAIN. Yah Satyug se lekar chalaa aayaa hai. Maharajavon ke phir prince princess bhi hote hain na. Maharaajaayein, phir raajaayein donon ikattey chal padtey hain. Maharajavon ke bahut badi property hoti hai. Rajavon ko unsey kum. Abhi to hai hee praja ka praja par raajy. Abhi phir raajadhaani sthaapan ho rahi hai. Yah hai sri LN ban_ney ki knowledge.Uskey liye hi purushaarth chalta hai. poochte hain tum LN kaa pad paavenge yaa Ram sita ka. TOH KAHTE HAIN HUM TOH LN KAA HEE PADD PAAVENGE. Maa Baap se pooraa varsaa lenge. – 69- [Kings]


SM 13-11-77(2):- Prajaa toh bahut ban_ni hai. Raja phir bhi raja hai. Ek Raja ke laakhon praja rahti hai. Purushaarth toh oonch karnaa chahiye. Rajayi may bhi koyi badaa Raja, koyi chotaa Raja. Bharat may kitney Rajaayein hain. Us taraf foreign may ek hee hai. Yahaan hee yah Rajaayi chali aayi hai. Satyug MAY BHI BAHUT MAHARAJAAYEIN, BAHUT RAJAAYEIN HAIN. YAH Satyug SE LEKAR CHALAA AAYAA HAI. MAHARAJAAVON KE PAAS PRINCE, PRINCESS BHI HOTEY HAIN NA. MAHARAJAAYEIN, PHIR RAAJAAYEIN, DODNON IKATTHEY CHALTEY RAHTE HAIN. Maharajaavon ko bahut property hoti hai. Raajaavon ko kum. Abhi to hai hee praja kaa prajaa par raajy. Abhi phir Rajadhaani sthaapan ho rahi hai. Yah hai hee LN ban_ne ki knowledge. Uskeliye hee purushaarth chaltaa hai. POOCHTEY HAIN TUM LN KAA PADD PAAVENGE VAA Ram SITA KAA? TOH KAHTE HAIN HUM TOH LN KAA HEE PADD PAAVENGE. Maa Baap se pooraa varsaa lenge. -111-

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 11 Sep 2012

# post No. 55

the following is the essence of the Murli.


4a)SM 21-10-78(1):- “Padhaayi ka pahlaa aadhaar hai nishchay. Padhaanevaale par nishchay ho, toh padhaayi kab miss na karey”. -28- [Murli cut]

4b)SM 12-10-83(1):- “Meethay bachche- padhaayi kabhi bhi miss nahin karnaa hai. Padhaayi kaa shownkh tab rahegaa jab padhaanevaale Baap par atoot nischay hogaa, nishchaybuddhi bachche hi service kar sakenge”. -12- [Murli cut]

Extra addition is here.
------------

5a)SM 21-10-78(3):- Aisee2 service ke samaachar Baba ko likhnaa hai. DO (=2) BAAP KI POINT MUKHY HAI. Naam hee hai swargeey pitaa. Swarg kaa raajbhaag denevaalaa. -29- [Murli cut]


5b)SM 12-10-83(3):- Aisee2 service ke samaachar Baba ko likhnaa hai. DO (=2) BAAP KI POINT MUKHY HAI. NAAM HEE HAI SWARG. VAH HAI SWARG KAA RAAJBHAAG DENEVAALAA. -13- [Murli cut]

Swargeey pita (heavenly Father) got replaced by swarg(heaven).

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 11 Sep 2012

I will not discuss about these in detail. Already put in forum about this and also that discussion can never end.

some other highly important Murli points with typing errors are already put in forums and discussed

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 14 Sep 2012

# Post No. 57

Example No. 16:- Is ShivBaba puppet within the hands of drama?

There is a Murli point- "Bhaktimarg may merey may gyaan emerge nahin hotaa hai. Gyaan Sangam ke samay may hee emerge hotaa hai = During Bhaktimarg period, no knowledge emerges in my mind. It happens in Confluence Age "

I was a little bit confused- Will ShivBaba not have knowledge in him during Bhaktimarg? this was a puzzle to me till few months before.

Later I came to the following conclusion:- ShivBaba is such a master that, he need not remember/bother what he needs to speak/say. Knowledge/drama becomes servant of ShivBaba. It emerges in his mind at the right time automatically. Like servants serve the master at right time naturally.

If ShivBaba has knowledge during Bhaktimarg and keeps it in his intellect, then it is as good as ShivBaba lower than the knowledge. It is like burden or ego. It is like a rich person conscious of the money he has. A true healthy person will not be conscious of even health, a rich person will not be conscious of wealth.


In some other words- it can be said as- Drama and ShivBaba are like King/Husband and Queen/Wife. Both are perfect in themselves, cooperate each other to the extent of 100%, serve their duties fully, easily and naturally.

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fluffy bunny
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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by fluffy bunny » 15 Sep 2012

Murli quotes should be dated so we can examine their context, e.g. it could have been Lekhraj Kirpalani talking.

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 15 Sep 2012

fluffy bunny wrote:Murli quotes should be dated so we can examine their context, e.g. it could have been Lekhraj Kirpalani talking.
Dear soul,
These are churning of an individual. You are free to accept, reject or ignore. Wherever the Murli points are applicable, available, I will post. And sometimes, Baba may not speak openly. I am guessing the possibilities. So- there is no need or possible to quote Murli points in every case. but, if anyone finds and gets, welcome.

Thank you for the suggestion.

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