xBKChat.com

for ex-Brahma Kumaris, to discuss matters related to their experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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fluffy bunny
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Re: xBKChat.com

Post by fluffy bunny » 17 Jun 2008

As the BKWSU continues to unravel, it is in an increasing number of individuals' interest to make the experience of this forum unpleasant, as you are doing. I appreciate that it is a great challenge to the collective self image but I think the more you dig in, the more truthful it actually turns out to be. If the Brahma Kumari's psychic predictions are true, then it is writing of some great event in the future history of humankind. So study it well.

You must be talking about proy at cultexit.org, one of his classic posts is published, here; Excuses, Misery & the BK Laity.

Proy was a moderator here and was going to become one of the directors. Then blew it all by discussing (and publishing on his own site) private matters about others such as sarah that he derived from his privileged moderator status with another ex-member called sparkal who, like you said, was operating two accounts; sparkal and suss gi. In one of his more lucid moments, Sparkal left a Classic Post, here; Teachers Training - Satire but there are many more of them.

It was very bad form for anyone in the counseling/cult exiting world and entirely against the gaurantee offered to cultexit forum members in the guidelines, see below.
elsewhere, proy wrote:The BK related threads will shortly be moved into a Confidential Forum on cultexit.org. My reason is that cultexit is trying to encourage non-BK related ex-cult members, and I feel they are being put off by the predominance of all us ex-BKs.

There is no cover up. It has been proven to me that the issues raised in those threads have no evidence to back them up, and that Sarah is both real and in need of our help here in this forum. I once again apologise for my hasty post on cultexit on that issue. It was never my intention to bring this site into disrepute, I hope you all know that. I have been posting here for a long time, and it was this site which helped me to exit the BKs and to save my marriage. Many thanks to admin for running this site.
Although, in the end, they both had their accounts suspended, I think it is necessary to understand and occomidate the kinds of pressures ex-BKs go through after leaving Gyan which can include suicidal tendencies, mood swings and so on. It can also be incredibly lonely as one is so cut off afterwards. But, it is all out in the open and recorded in public now, here. You decide if the best thing was done or not. As to the "admin encouraging", the guidelines are, here,
admin wrote:To gain membership all one requires is an active email address and to answer a simple question determining which Usergroup one wishes to join. Membership is basis on trust and respect.

Because of the wish to protect contributor's anonymity, and the insecure nature of the internet, it is impossible for us to police individual's memberships. Although not encouraged, it is possible for individuals to have more than one membership and there is nothing the forum moderators can do about this. According to the limitation of the software, it is not possible to track where post are made from.
Bruv, I am not sure whether 'desperate' or 'pathetic' is the better word to chose to describe your attempt to minimise, discredit ... and ignore what is going on here. And by "what is going on here", I do not mean just what the site entails but the effects it is having within the BK world. They cover is blown, they are having to become more honest ... may be even 'accountable' one day.

On the PBK front; well, the BKWSU goes from banish them from centers worldwide (even in the enlightened West) and calling them a "virus", to dragging them off in cars to beat them up in India. As for the other Splinter groups, all you had to do to "be made aware" was look at the front page of this forum ... so what are you talking about? Yes, I agree, that is another matter that we have brought firmly to light here and into BK consciousness generally. Actually, I personally wrote to the United Nations complaining about this when, a) I read the evidence to convince me it was real, and b) certain BKs so sickened me by their actions. Enough was enough. At least now it is a matter of record.

As for "numbers" ...
  • there is an old saying in politics, "one letter equals 10,000 votes".
I am not so sure it is about numbers but the accuracy, details and extend of the knowledge, discussion and materials that are here for individuals to do as they please. Including free Murlis ... something the BKWSU with all its millions, cannot get it heart around providing.

What is a shame is that progressive BK did not grasp the opportunity they were offered in the very beginning to make the site truly inclusive rather than all the ******* throwing less enlightened members have engaged in from on the Wikipedia episode or the law suit to shut us down here. But, there you have it, the atmosphere of fear, control and conformity inhibits them. The feedback we get is that BKs have been fed what to think about this forum without actually ever reading.

What I do appreciate about individuals such as yourself doing, is coming on here and help us document accurately the mind set of the Brahma Kumari world which exists behind the polished PR front. So, please, keep raising the issues and let us help you seek your own truth.

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bansy
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Re: xBKChat.com

Post by bansy » 17 Jun 2008

bruv wrote:I agree, it's a fair question why so few BKs seem willing to actively participate on this forum, maybe you shouldn't advertise the Tao of Traveller thread so prominently?
This is a forum where there are no stats to show how many BKs or non BKs use this forum actively (i.e posting) or passively (i.e browsing). As the Tao DVD is BK related topic, it could therefore be discussed here.

If there are no BKs using this forum, good. Then there is nothing for the BKWSU to be worried about, is there ?

bruv
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Re: xBKChat.com

Post by bruv » 22 Jun 2008

ex-l wrote:On the PBK front; well, the BKWSU goes from... to dragging them off in cars to beat them up in India.
ex-l, can you substantiate the above?
proy wrote:There is no cover up. It has been proven to me that the issues raised in those threads have no evidence to back them up, and that Sarah is both real and in need of our help here in this forum.
Can you also point me in the direction of the discussion the above quote was taken from?
Bansy wrote - This is a forum where there are no stats to show how many BKs or non BKs use this forum actively (i.e posting) or passively (i.e browsing).
Just click on the members link Bansy, a brief scan should give you a good idea.

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bansy
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Re: xBKChat.com

Post by bansy » 22 Jun 2008

bruv wrote:Just click on the members link Bansy, a brief scan should give you a good idea.
No need. I don't use a forum title because I do not see folks as BKs or non BKs, I see them as souls. In addition, in the past there have been members who use one title but are not as such, and there has been at least one who switched. And anyway in this forum, the titles are quite meaningless, as we all know ex-BKs were BKs and BKs were ex-BKs.

However folks have still kept on holding onto their titles after some poll was done to keep it going. However, I abandoned the use of such forum titles way long ago (even though it had been originally assigned as a forum software (version1) default). :D And thus for me there is no need to look at the member list, it is so nice not be attached.

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chai bhai
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Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: i like that this forum gives people the chance to have conversation they may not be able to have elsewhere. we can meet people from different parts of the world, all who have a collective real wealth of experience in Raja Yoga. i support the ideal of an open forum where everyone has a voice and can speak freely.

Re: xBKChat.com

Post by chai bhai » 22 Jun 2008

Hello again bansy. I felt the same way about the titles but when I joined it would not let me choose nothing. I chose 'other' but then 'not sure' is what came up next to my name and picture. I would like to be nothing (ooh, that was profound) but cannot seem to get rid of the label. How did you do it?

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fluffy bunny
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Re: xBKChat.com

Post by fluffy bunny » 23 Jun 2008

ex-l wrote:On the PBK front; well, the BKWSU goes from... to dragging them off in cars to beat them up in India.
bruv wrote:ex-l, can you substantiate the above?
Yes, there are a number of hospital and police reports posted on the forum somewhere and personal witness statements. Perhaps they are on News forum now. Otherwise you can check in with the PBKs. Dr John Walliss in his book on the BKWSU also evidences the degree of irrational tensions within the BKWSU towards Virendra Dev Dixit and the PBKs. The policy of "banishment" is also noted on this forum.
  • "Seek and ye shall find ..." I don't make statements lightly nor without checking sources.
bruv, there is a page view counter on the bottom of the forum and you can tell on each topic how many views it has had. What is more interesting is the number of non-BKs that look at it. Looking at Alexa.com and elsewhere, the differences in the stats between this and official sites are interesting, especially considering the relative financial power etc.

The Traffic rank for BKWSU.org is 468,387 and for brahmakumaris.info is 558,871. The Page Views (per user) for the official site is 5 per user. The Page View (per user) for this site is 9 per user. Currently, Brahmakumaris.info receives over 5500 individual visitors ever month.
  • Brahmakumaris.info users come from these countries:
    • India - 40.3%
      United Kingdom - 32.7%
      Other countries - 27.0%
    Brahmakumaris.com users come from these countries:
    • India - 80.3%
      United States - 7.4%
      Indonesia - 2.2%
      Other countries - 9.8%
    BKWSU.org users come from these countries:
    • India - 24.7%
      Australia - 18.9%
      Sri Lanka - 7.8%
      United States - 7.1%
      United Kingdom - 7.1%

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bansy
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Re: xBKChat.com

Post by bansy » 23 Jun 2008

chai Bhai,

Maybe it can be changed on your personal details page, if not then request the admin to do it.

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admin
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Re: xBKChat.com

Post by admin » 25 Jun 2008

proy wrote:There is no cover up. It has been proven to me that the issues raised in those threads have no evidence to back them up, and that Sarah is both real and in need of our help here in this forum.
An official response
  • • There are now no known case where users are posting using two or more accounts on this forum.
There were 3 known cases in the past for a number of reasons both acceptable legitimate in nature, e.g.;
  • to make a clean start where there had been personal conflicts previously
    to post private information anonymously that the individuals did not want to expose as coming from them
    due to lost of passwords
and reasons unacceptable and illegitimate in nature, e.g.;
  • to evade suspension
Those posts made with a second account have now been transfered to the original user account. In one case, the user remains suspended for abuse as noted elsewhere.

Having more than one user account is neither encouraged nor discourage. It is a matter left to the conscience of the individual. There are conceivably very good reasons to do so, as listed above, and it is not a matter that moderators have any control over or can police. Where there is confusion or possible abuse, please refer the matter to the admin account to be dealt with.

Thank you

bruv
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Re: xBKChat.com

Post by bruv » 25 Jun 2008

proy wrote:There is no cover up. It has been proven to me that the issues raised in those threads have no evidence to back them up, and that Sarah is both real and in need of our help here in this forum.
OK Admin, but assuming the above quote was taken from a public discussion thread, I'd still appreciate if you could point me there so that I can see it in context. Thanks
ex-l wrote:On the PBK front; well, the BKWSU goes from ... to dragging them off in cars to beat them up in India.
OK ex-l, I found the above allegation detailed in the thread below. What and where are the sources of these reports? Hospital and police reports are alleged to have been made but are not provided, nor links to where they might be found?

8/10/06 - BKWSU Thugs use Violence to Suppress Religious Group

All I can find related to this elsewhere on the forum, is the thread below, in which Arjun appears to be admitting to having no knowledge on Police reports etc being made.

3/6/07 - Which PBKs got a beating

Bansy,

in your initial post on this thread, you appeared to be defining the appeal and scope of the forum in terms of the different categories of membership. So, when you said:
bansy wrote:If this forum is so unappealing to BKs, can it be said that definitely no BKs peep into this website ? Are all BKs non inquisitive ?

I thought it fair to assume that you had carried out some sort of label based qualitative analysis.

Statements by you on other threads, such as the one below, add to the feeling that you are highly keen on forum stats analysis, particularly BK activity/inactivity, which is why I initially attempted to answer you as I did.
From '[BKs only] What do you have to hide ?'

* This is a sticky post for active BKs only who are browsing this forum *

Dear BK Sisters and Brothers, You have now read much material in this forum, why do you not reply to the various issues and queries raised in this forum ?

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bansy
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Re: xBKChat.com

Post by bansy » 25 Jun 2008

I thought it fair to assume that you had carried out some sort of label based qualitative analysis. Statements by you on other threads, such as the one below, add to the feeling that you are highly keen on forum stats analysis, particularly BK activity/inactivity, which is why I initially attempted to answer you as I did.
You assumed wrong that I had carried out some sort of label based qualitative analysis. Why would you think I can or be bothered to ? To be highly keen on stats ? Well, if you or anyone have any idea how it could be done, it would be nice to know how it be done. Or you can ask admin if it is possible.

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fluffy bunny
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Re: xBKChat.com

Post by fluffy bunny » 26 Jun 2008

You misread and mispresent what Arjun said. He said a "few PBKs" filed police reports. We are talking about India here. One has to be realistic about the nature of their legal and police system. Human rights abuses are very commonplace.
bruv wrote:OK ex-l, I found the above allegation detailed in the thread below. What and where are the sources of these reports? Hospital and police reports are alleged to have been made but are not provided, nor links to where they might be found?
I found a file in the Download section, here; BK-PBK violence report.doc. I know there is other discussion scattered over the forum but that is enough for you to get to work on in the first place. There was also a news paper cutting somewhere too.

I suggest you take the BK-PBK violence report to your Brahma Kumari Zone-in-Charge or Madhuban, ask for their written comment, denial, acceptance, modification ... whatever. Best do it in person so that you can see their reaction and use that as a gauge. Then approach the Prajapita Brahma Kumaris in Kampil or Delhi and get their response or additional evidence. (I am not a PBK but even I support human rights and the right of religious freedom).

Once you have all three parts, put them together and see what conclusions you can make. If possible speak to some of the victims in person. Have you also read the book, The Brahma Kumaris as a Reflexive Tradition by John Walliss? its worth reminding that all these PBKs did was EXACTLY what the BKs to do at other religion's or interfaith events. Hand out leaflets and promote their own spiritual understanding.

That such an otherwise outright libel is has remained published in public for such a long time suggest to me it is a stone the BKWSU does not want to over turn for fear of what else is going to come out about their underhand activities. To that I would add the shock to Western BKs of the Indian "security wing" using lathis (riot control sticks) on devoted Brahma Kumari followers as crowd control method during some of the mega programmes.

Here are the address for the PBKs I found on a website. Being such an important matter, please report back to us your findings (complete with the questions you asked) once they are complete.
  • A/1, 351-352, Vijay Vihar, Ritthala, Delhi – 110085; T: 011 27044227

    Kampil [UP] 207505, Dist. Furrukabad, T: 05690 271202
There was an email published recently that will take your enquiry directly to Virendra Dev Dixit as well. Thanks.

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Re: xBKChat.com

Post by arjun » 26 Jun 2008

bruv wrote:All I can find related to this elsewhere on the forum, is the thread below, in which Arjun appears to be admitting to having no knowledge on Police reports etc being made.
Dear brother,
It is nice to know that you have made efforts to know about violence perpetrated by certain BKs against some PBKs. As regards my post referred to by you I am producing an extract of the same:
As regards Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit's opinion in this regard, first he says that whenever such incidents of violence take place they should promptly be reported to Police, but very few PBKs muster up courage to lodge police complaints.
But the above does not mean that PBKs have never filed police complaints. They have filed Police reports at some places. But most of such incidents have gone unreported and are part of individual experiences.

I have myself been at the receiving end on a few occasions. I have already related my experiences on a couple of occasions, but for the sake of your kind information, I would like to repeat that soon after I became a PBK, out of enthusiasm and intoxication of revealing ShivBaba, I went to attend the morning class of a BK center whose incharge was very closely associated with me during my BK days. But she was absent and her junior was taking the class. As soon as I entered the classroom, the explanation of the Murli changed suddenly to warn about the imminent danger of a PBK having entered the class. Taking cue from the teacher, a BK brother sitting on a chair warned me that if I step into that center/area once again he would break my bones. I simply said to the teacher that I came here thinking it to be Baba's house, but I now I don't feel so and therefore I am leaving. That was nearly 13 years ago and since then I have not stepped into a BK center uninvited.

On two other occasions, when I went to BK public programmes I was manhandled along with other PBKs. The BK brothers tried to snatch my bag containing pamphlets. On one such occasion, when I was accompanied by just two PBK mothers, standing more than 100 meters away from the venue of a megaprogramme, four BK brothers (who were on a round in their car looking out for PBKs) got down from their car and tried to drag me physically into their car to be taken to a place where some other PBK brothers were mercilessly beaten and their clothes torn. I cannot reveal more than this, but I must thank ShivBaba for being alive today.

Over the years, such incidents may have decreased because of the disinterest of PBKs in doing service through pamphlets at such mega programmes (the BKs are anyways tutored beforehand to tear all such pamphlets), the victims may have forgiven and forgotten the bad experiences, but the perpetrators of such violence simply cannot forget those incidents.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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fluffy bunny
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Re: xBKChat.com

Post by fluffy bunny » 27 Jun 2008

I look forward to the seeing the true BK colors of bruv now, and then reading official response from the BKWSU when it returns with it.

However ... I will be not bothering myself to expect one. The greatest dissonance surrounding the Brahmakumaris that I can see if their faith that the Age of Truth will be created not just in this manner but by refusing even to discuss it.

We are told that to do a sin as a BK is 100 or a 1,000 times worse than a non-BK and yet this stuff goes on. I underline that as it happens in number states, and banishments all around the global, it must be a centralised policy decided upon by the leadership and passed on my the middle management.

Needless to say, it will all be word of mouth so there is no paper trail to either prove it or disprove it. But, like their Global Chief of PR Karuna Shetty lying to the Moscow Times that Destruction had been removed from the teachings, it will all come out in time.

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Re: xBKChat.com

Post by bruv » 29 Jun 2008

First to again point out, that I would disagree with the form of evangelism that the pbk seem to go in for. I don't think it is at all appropriate for a spiritual group to take advantage of another group's service facilities in order to promote themselves, not unless they have been invited to do so.

However, if these accounts of the BKWSU reaction to the pbk attempts to evangelise at bk centres/gatherings are at all true, then I would certainly agree that it is wholly inappropriate and I am dismayed and shocked to read of it.

Surely, there must be some independent sources available? Does John Wallis comment on the alleged violence?

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fluffy bunny
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Re: xBKChat.com

Post by fluffy bunny » 30 Jun 2008

Thank you for the noticeable change in your attitude over this bruv. Yes, I appreciate that the issue raised on this forum and website are difficult to accommodation within the standard BK mindset but, as I think you will discover over time, they do have validity and are well researched.

I am not a PBK and so I am not arguing their position but dragging off and beating, or the tearing to pieces of posters and leaflets, does seem a disproportionate punishment for the sin of handing them out to co-religionists. Neurotic even. Whatever their differences, BKs and PBKs are co-religionists.

Personally, I can see NO difference between what the PBKs are doing and BKs do and have done at many other religions or organizations events ... indeed what BKs are INSTRUCTED to do by the Murli, e.g. go to Melas, go to temples, go to graveyards and give their view on spiritual knowledge. Until evidence arises to the contrary, the "Om Shanti Beatings" appear to be all one way and more akin to the work of Brown Shirts than angels of light.

I cant separate them from any other activities any other BKs undertake and the BKWSU leadership is taking it usual position of refusing to comment and protecting the abusers.

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