Why do BKs lose their friends?

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Re: Why do BKs lose their friends?

Post by fluffy bunny » 09 Jun 2008

arjun wrote:I don't think Baba has prohibited BKs/PBKs from being friends with each other, but He cautions them against being attached/familiar ...
I think that is exactly the issue that non-BKs pick up on and "take sorrow" from - to put it into BK speak. That is to say, BKs are led to think that it is "not their fault" because they are not 'actively' hurting the other, their family, wife, whoever but are indeed 'passively' hurting them by the inner rejection or detachment. BKs are led to think this sorrow is the others' problem, their karma and "their decision" if they 'take sorrow'.

Sure, the idealised Brahma Kumari is bound to be perfectly polite, friends, tolerant etc ... all the divine virtues present. But they are withholding those internal, emotional, spiritual parts of themselves that "common people" call love, friendship and family ties. I would call the BK Brahmin position more one of 'diplomacy' than 'friendship'.

The idealised BK Brahmin is diplomatic to others, the BK community is diplomatic, not friendly, to external communities but ultimately rejecting of anyone not accepting its dogma and that rejection goes even as far as physical and spiritual family members.

How do we define and perform friendship if we cannot drink with them, eat their food, (mostly) show affection, socialise, laugh with them, lend money to them, play football or small talk, holiday with them, help them for the fear of creating new karmic bonds and alway be operating like double agents taking pulses and calculating "maximum benefit".

The BK path is one of breaking all bonds except for with one. Those bonds are the very things the rest of the world, calls love and uses to hold their family and societies together. Our relationship as Brahma Kumari followers is more akin to aloof missionary colonialists amongst uncivilised, undeveloped natives looking down upon them with mercy (except for where they are rich, powerful and institutionally useful to us).

Obviously, such a definition is not personally towards you or anyone here but is, I think, entirely concordant with the classes and directions given. It may even be ultimately the correct position to take ... who knows ... it is certainly a fairly traditional one for a certain sort of religiosity. For example, I don't drink alcohol even "socially". I would say that alone cuts me out of about 90% of friendly, social interactions in the West. It stops me 'making new friends' and thereby cuts out everything that new relationships would bring into my life; social connections, employment opportunities etc.

A friend thinks first of their friend or family, BKs tend to have this little split second gap where they think and put first Baba and the senior sisters. As "good" BK follower's best yukti is just to keep them selves so busy...

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Re: Why do BKs lose their friends?

Post by arjun » 09 Jun 2008

jaycdp wrote:what is a sin?
which sin is biggest sin?
which sin is forbidden?
which kind sin is to be excused?
Om Shanti. In BK/PBK terms, any thought, word or action performed in bodyconsciousness is a sin. But there are grades of sins as well, like sato, rajo, tamo. For example there could be different kinds of lust. One is to indulge in lust only with the spouse. Second is to indulge in lust with different partners. Third is to indulge in lust/raping someone and then killing her, which has become very common in today's world.

According to Gyan, the biggest sin is to indulge in lust under the influence of body consciousness. This sin is forbidden.

I don't think any sin is excusable, but according to the advanced knowledge, ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) says that in His eyes all other sins except ego are excusable.

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Re: Why do BKs lose their friends?

Post by global » 19 Jun 2008

BKs lose friends because they listen to people who have no clue how to have any.

I have seen more back stabbing in the BK environment than in most lokik working environments. They will :-) but behave differently.

It is really sad that people are getting advice from others who are told one should only deal with this or that person.

Arjun,

I have thought about this what about those weirdos that have sex with children, or animals for that matter, to me this is despicable and cannot be on the same level as a husband and wife?

Surely having sex with one's wife in a loving manner cannot be seen as some monster who rapes someone?

What do you mean by the biggest sin is to "indulge in lust under the influence of body-consciousness"?

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Re: Why do BKs lose their friends?

Post by mr green » 19 Jun 2008

It doesn't really mean anything, it is just religious clap-trap ...

I left Gyan maybe 4-5 years ago now and I am still as 'soul-conscious' as I ever was, more so if anything ... indulging in lust is just a Victorian-style knee jerk, a violent bigoted ideals. BKs tend to lose their friends because they believe in and attempt to serve their peers with such hilarious nonsense, I've done it myself!!!

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Re: Why do some (not all) BKs lose their friends?

Post by bkti-pit » 19 Jun 2008

I cannot think of a single friend that I have lost in 24 years of BK life but I got many new ones. I never tried to convert any of them to my beliefs.

All my friends are idealists like me. Most are vegetarians and do not drink alcohol. None of them is bothered that I do not eat onions or that I wake up so early in the morning. Some have come to the Center, some have taken lessons, some became friends of the BKs.

One of my oldest friend is a full time peace activist. Once he went to India to participate in some peace march and some Gandhian group development project in a village. At the end of it all he was invited by some other participants to visit their family in Mount Abu. He saw those groups of people in white dress and asked his friends who they were. They did not have a very good opinion of the BKs. He thought that this must be the group I belong to and went to visit Madhuban. They tried to give him some Gyan but he found them very arrogant and had no interest in returning.

We remain good friends anyway.

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Re: Why do BKs lose their friends?

Post by arjun » 19 Jun 2008

global wrote:I have thought about this what about those weirdos that have sex with children, or animals for that matter, to me this is despicable and cannot be on the same level as a husband and wife?Surely having sex with one's wife in a loving manner cannot be seen as some monster who rapes someone?
I agree.
What do you mean by the biggest sin is to "indulge in lust under the influence of body-consciousness"?
From the point of view of the outside world, especially from the viewpoint of the Hindu scriptures like Manusmriti, it is OK to indulge in sex for procreation but not for entertainment/lust. I know many would say that scriptures like Kamasutra says just the opposite.

But from BK/PBK point of view indulging in sex even for the purpose of procreation is not allowed. It is believed by the BKs/PBKs that the root cause of all the vices is body consciousness and therefore indulging in any kind of lustful activity under the influence of body consciousness is considered to be a sin. I particularly used the words 'under the influence of body consciousness' because there may be many BK/PBK mothers who are perhaps forced by their spouses to indulge in sex. In that case, if they do not have any interest of their own in sex but submit themselves for the act like a corpse cannot be said to have become impure because of the act. I cannot say anything about the opposite situation, i.e. BK/PBK brothers being forced by their spouses to indulge in sex because Baba has not touched upon that subject in the Murlis/Clarifications/discussions.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Why do BKs lose their friends?

Post by global » 19 Jun 2008

Arjun,

Thanks for your replies from reading many of your posts you are a very good soul and refreshing to see someone like yourself involved in open discussions. I just cannot see how someone wanting to have children with their partner would be considered worse than a murder, thief (robbing a handicap person etc) or environmental polluters who dump toxic waste into the rivers for the sake of profit etc. It really doesn't make sense to me.

From my experience BKs think they are better or chosen, and then the EGO takes over so anyone else outside of the organization is less. So how is it possible that they can have true friendship?

I have been in situations with many females whose conversations are work related etc. Does that mean I cannot talk to them? Does it mean I am going to sleep with them? Do I lack that self control that I can not be in control of any situation?

This is a real bizarre mentality of my experience with bk's of not talking to or being friendly with females. To me this is really body-consciousness ...

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Re: Why do BKs lose their friends?

Post by jannisder » 19 Jun 2008

And if they are friendly, do they not understand the Knowledge or just ignore it??

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Re: Why do BKs lose their friends?

Post by arjun » 20 Jun 2008

From my experience BKs think they are better or chosen, and then the EGO takes over so anyone else outside of the organization is less. So how is it possible that they can have true friendship?
If any BK/PBK thinks like that it is wrong. Baba says that we should view each soul as a future deity souls and not as souls inferior to us. Who knows that the soul whom we are considering inferior to us may grasp the knowledge and gallop faster than us. Even otherwise, there are plenty of non-BK/PBK souls whose dharna is better than many BKs/PBKs.
I have been in situations with many females whose conversations are work related etc. Does that mean I cannot talk to them? Does it mean I am going to sleep with them? Do I lack that self control that I can not be in control of any situation? This is a real bizarre mentality of my experience with BK's of not talking to or being friendly with females. To me this is really body-consciousness ...

One of my colleagues is also in a situation like you. Because of his good nature (and also perhaps his handsomeness) he is quite popular among many of my female colleagues. Some of our other male colleagues are jealous of him and suspect his character, but he has confided in me that although he is friendly with many female colleagues his relationship is limited to conversations and that he is faithful to his wife. He even has two grown up daughters. So, it all depends on the level of self-control. If we talk to women seeing them as souls, then I don't see any harm in it.

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focus on soul consciousness

Post by alladin » 20 Jun 2008

Hi. Regarding "self control", the way I see it it shouldn't mean repression of any kind of attraction when we socialize. BKs end up becoming very fearful, tense and not natural, they loose spontaneity and it is not pleasant to be around such people!

Even though I have no sympathy for the BKWSO, I am committed to practise soul consciousness in my interaction with others, which is a broad topic in its own. What does it mean to me? For example, not looking at the appearances (looks) or the situations people are temporarily in (state of mind or social position), accepting and valuing them for what they are and not for what they seem to be or they have. Having empathy and respect in conversations and interactions. Respecting their opinions and listening to them. Not always wanting to take or use, instead give without expectations. Not to proselytize and try to convert them.

Of course, I appreciate it if people have a similar attitude towards me! I don't like it when someone - especially an arrogant and ignorant person - takes the liberty or even feels the duty of telling me how to do or what to do! Therefore, I try not to lecture others or dispense unsolicited advice. I think that paying attention to these few rules, can help establish and maintain healthy friendships. Sharing ideas and energy between men and women can be enriching. I don't think we are genderless, but we have to develop and experience what our gender means in an elevated way, how we can contribute through it. Unfortunately, in Kaliyug, male and female qualities have been distorted and this is why being with "colleagues" can be a tiring experience at times, when they are flirtatious for instance, when they have hidden agendas or a "criminal drishti" ;) !

But "Baba said" that we have to be like incense sticks that can change the atmosphere. Yogi souls should be able to influence others subtly, making the vibrations more refined . In my experience, people feel at ease, when I am affectionate and soul conscious, they can relax, drop the masks, take a break from the effort it takes to pretend and allow the self to just "be". When BKs lack of Yoga power, they opt for forceful conversion of others, they start lecturing them, they avoid or exclude them, out of inability. This is disservice as we all know. A source of grief and regret, and with family and friends, it is often difficult to repair the damage once it's done!!

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Re: Why do BKs lose their friends?

Post by jannisder » 20 Jun 2008

Some say this, some say that, all how it fits them best. I mean a BK can see and do anything ... and always finds an excuse to make it alright.

Very confusing!!

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Re: Why do BKs lose their friends?

Post by global » 22 Jun 2008

Arjun,

Thanks for sharing a practical experience. I was in a centre one time and the sister scolded the other BK for talking to me, we were laughing and discussing spiritual matters. Of course, not in front of me because I probably would of told her she was nuts in a polite way. The BKs talk about respect for women, yet how is it that respect towards females? Are they worried they will have no self control Give me a break. How little faith.

Not every man wants to seduce every woman, but appreciates the women thinking, because they can see things in a different way and will want to learn from that experience.

Alladin I agree with what you typed.
Alladin wrote:When BKs lack of Yoga power, they opt for forceful conversion of others, they start lecturing them, they avoid or exclude them, out of inability. This is disservice as we all know. A source of grief and regret, and with family and friends, it is often difficult to repair the damage once it's done!!
This BK movement is a very sick movement. Before I visited the centre I was better able to relate to anyone, now it is more of a challenge because of me allowing the foolishness to enter my mind. I saw a friend who is involved with BKs still I mentioned something to him about the PBKs and he was angry, he is so brainwashed, too bad, he was a very productive soul before.

Now he is lost in BK space.

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