ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

for ex-Brahma Kumaris, to discuss matters related to their experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by john morgan » 08 May 2008

Hi ex-I,

Your post arrived whilst I was writing to John.

The whole thing for me is quite simple really, experience versus words. Experience wins outright!

Now it may be that yogis other than the BK have access to spiritual treasures also. We are spiritual beings in physical bodies, there are many yogas/systems/religions that seek to reveal this truth. That there is only one Bap Dada is the rock on which Gyan is built. Now it could be that other yogis experience the same or similar and that the BK path of knowledge is merely another expression of normal yogic life. If that were the case it would not devalue Gyan because the experience is so far above that which the common man experiences that is or can or will be of great value to him regardless.

The destruction predictions have definitely focused peoples attention on things eternal which in view of the benefit that can be accrued in comparison to that of an ordinary life is no bad thing. That they have not yet happened is from my point of view most fortunate. I have always, so I am told, had a spiritual bent and relish learning to use time properly. There are other yogic studies about the value of time.

I can feel your cyber boot, it makes me smile. Am about to reply to Mr Green's post (My being here is shaky :roll:)

Must go, :mrgreen: may be waiting.

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by john morgan » 08 May 2008

Hello :mrgreen:

I am beginning to really feel for you. Last night I was reading your posts about how you trusted the BK, experienced a negative reaction and they refused your request for help. You have had many challenges, we have something very much in common.

It seemed to me in my ignorance that the BK would when I experienced difficulty because of following their instructions as I understood them help. It was a great surprise to me when they refused me too. I was at home and some kind of hypnosis resulted in concentrating on a point of light. They told me they could not help for a month. When you are desperate an hour is a very long time but I had to manage somehow and did. The exploration of consciousness can be very treacherous. I have written before that things that would break an ordinary man are encountered in Gyan and somehow overcome. Whilst I have no alternative but to support them as regards Yoga and its fruits their ability to dish out pain is remarkable.

When I deeply understand why the BK act as they do in the giving of pain to others I will do something about it. It could be that the BK well meaningly knock out every support with the intention that one embraces Baba and the Murli but I am not sure. In the meantime if I come across a Gyani or ex-Gyani who is in difficulty I try to help and explain that a constructive life can be lived without BK Gyan.

Now it may be that your post under this topic was directed at me, I suspect that it was, if such is the case thanks for speaking your mind, its not always that one is lucky enough to encounter such straightforwardness. For me its not a question of disliking anyone, I speak my truth and enjoy very much the quality interaction which I often find here.

Kind regards,

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by andrey » 09 May 2008

This is not the BKWSU and whilst I welcome any open and honest BK or PBK, the forum should not be limited to or conform either of their standards. I think we should 'set the bar' higher and demand better of both parties.
If we take that BKs and PBKs follow Shrimat that are the standards of God, which will be these standarts that will be higher? Some new God is definitely needed. May we know these demands and standards, so that we may at least comply? But what can they be? Are there any Maryadas even here? There is nothing here except chat. No early to bed, early to rise. No food regime or celibacy. Even no censor in speech. What high standards are these?

If there is demand for better, for the BK and PBK means they are worse. The one who sets the bar however, how will he be? He will be even the best. You are administrator. If you can set standards. Why cannot i set the standards?

You say that honesty and truth are required and that means they lie but it also means you don't lie and tell the truth. Truth is here and i tell it. It becomes a place to attract people and make them to stick. A leader who will speak speech of truth is needed. When this can happen in practical, in the same time people are prevented from going to the right place, where they should. One makes others stick to his own self by various ways, entertaining people and making them flat. They are devoid and distracted from their real aim and place by the means of hundreds of details. It becomes a place that hides the truth.

If it were a matter of standarts then we all know them. We all like and demand truth. Those who lie will also speak about truth. But standard is laid by practical example.

OK, you ask everyone, openness is required, you say yourself that who and how financed your career whilst in BK?

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by fluffy bunny » 09 May 2008

andrey wrote:))K, you ask everyone, openness is required, you say yourself that who and how financed your career whilst in BK?
Firstly, I never made a career out of my involvement with the Brahma Kumaris. I supported myself with a series of low paid, primarily brain-free jobs, as we were encouraged to take to "leave our intellects free" to "remember Baba". I am trying to remember if I was ever unemployed during that time and I think perhaps so, when I moved cities, but it must have been for a short period because I have no specific recollection of it. I do though remember doing very manual service in Baba's bhavans during the daytime and so I might have been. Being unemployed was then seriously disencouraged and not allowed.

Secondly, I never said I set the standards and I do not accept the position you are attempting to stick on me. This has been answered before and if you have any evidence to the contrary, please post it for all too see. My feeling is that you really know nothing about how this forum runs but just have an axe to grind against me. I said we should demand higher standards of BKs and PBKs. This is a statement inline with the Murli. We "bhagats are crying out in suffering for the Brahma Kumaris to get their act in order".

What are the lack of standards? Well, for example, look at the Tao of the Traveller thread ... hysterics aside, the BKWSU says the film "is Baba's film introducing the Knowledge", a 26 year BK who appears to be closely involved says "it is a private venture with "none of The Knowledge". Truth can only be one ... so which one is it? Look at the History thread. And every time a BK asserts that BapDada is "God" (God and Lekhraj Kripalani, there a questionable statement of faith alone that requires inspection or qualification. Who is anyone trying to kid?

So what are you suggesting? Does Virendra Dev Dixit want to become a moderator on this forum or own it as well as well the BKWSU?

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by andrey » 10 May 2008

I don't know anything about running forums. If Virendra Dev Dixit owns the forum then it will become a PBK place. Whatever the king so the subject. I mean you are unofficial administrator, so it becomes an ex-BK place where they are more welcome. I believe with time when we can have more BKs, more PBK, more ex-BKs and we all speak together and influence one another these barriers may vanish. I don't believe it will happen in one go with some official one step.

I am just sceptic regarding the pretention that we should mend the BK. We have to have a clear idea, image of the aim. Is this site meant to form something new. If what will happen at the end, that it is proved that the BK thing is a big lie, then the aim is just to disprove. If there should be something formed then faith in some matters should be there. Instead of becoming like yellow press, there should be more spiritual talk that recently has become less. See. I also set standards.

We should also not aim the top politics the officialdom and in charge people. Let's stick to the ordinary people that we are. Behind the mask of the official line there may be some ordinary people who are worthy. Even it should not be an attack against the Seniors or the system. You say you like to heal people but sometimes it becomes people have to be healed from you.

You desire a unified standard regarding the BK response for the film e.g., but this unified, organized, dictated response in official way will in no way express the thoughts of people. Then what is the problem if everyone has his own opinion regarding a film?

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by fluffy bunny » 11 May 2008

Excuse my language but where I come from there is a say, "opinions are like bottomholes, everyone has one". Except it is not as politely said as that. It means that they worse then worthless but an impure place of creating waste. We must put aside opinions and seek the absolute truth about everything.

Andrey, you have a wonderful willpower to plough on (and off topic) undistracted by what others say to you. I thank you for everything you have shared with us and wish you well in life.

As I said to you before, I suggest you speak with Virendra Dev Dixit more often and take his opinion of this website. I am very happy and interested to hear what he has to say. But I am sorry, I am not interested in anything more from you. From an orthodox PBK point of view, that is, of course, a good position to take.

For me, your argument is not straight enough. I find how difficult to express but others such as john and shivsena have mentioned it too. Ultimately, I find it a little passive-aggressive or suppressive. I feel like you are trying to crush others down back into the BK mould.

I am happy to discuss the Tao film in the film topic and very happy to take comments and criticisms about my own conduct here (I like to keep things as clear as I can).

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by diiogenes » 11 May 2008

Try being a bit more friendly here, in general, ex-l, to yourself as well. You'll be surprised it doesn't come across as a sign of weakness, but of strength. I'd appreciate seeing a side of you that wasn't usually teetering on hostility. It cannot be good for you. It would allow people to appreciate your efforts without having conflicting feelings. I think you've done a remarkable job to reveal the anomalies in the BK history, behaviour etc. The former is, I am sure, appreciated by many of us ex's who weren't in the know, the latter reminds us we aren't alone in our experiences. But I find the unrelenting hostility you exhibit has me less interested in how right you are, and more aware how consumed by it you are.

Eventually, everyone becomes your enemy, you won't know who you trust, and won't like those you find supporting your hostility. If you're being consumed by it, it doesn't matter how right you are. It's unrealistic to think BKWSU are going to allow you to interrogate them from the manner you're raising issues in here. The way you're raising issues in here seems more reflective of the personal hurt you've experienced - and I can empathise with you there. When you allow vengance to drive you, though, you will lose even when you 'win'. I am not trying to dissuade you from what you consider your mission for the truth of bk revisionism, lack of duty of care etc. Just be aware of the manner of sacrificing yourself in the process.

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by warrior » 11 May 2008

bkti-pit wrote:Did we not hear unlimited times that it was better to die than to beg, that if someone offers us money we should not take it but tell them that if they want to help they can print some leaflets, etc?
“Father shows the path – one has to show mercy or pity upon oneself. Teacher teaches; He will not give blessings. It is better to die rather than to seek blessings, mercy, and pity. One should not seek money from anyone. Children are strictly prohibited (from doing so). Father says that as per drama those who have sown the seed and obtained the inheritance in the previous Kalpa will do automatically. You do not seek for any task. If anyone does not do then he/she will not gain. People give alms or perform good deeds, then they get returns, isn’t it? They take birth in the house of a king or a prosperous person. Those who have to do, will do automatically. You must not seek.

To whatever extent whoever has done in the previous Kalpa, the drama will make them to do. Where is the need to seek? Baba keeps telling that the hundi (boxes kept in the temples for offerings of money to God) keeps getting filled for service. Will I tell the children, “Give money?” The matters of path of worship (Bhaktimarg) do not exist in the path of knowledge (gyaanmarg). Those who have helped in the previous Kalpa will keep helping. One must never seek on one’s own. Baba says, “Children, you cannot collect funds.” This is done by Sanyasis (monks). In the path of worship, even if we give a little, then we get in return for one birth. But this is for many births. So it is good to give everything for many births, isn’t it?

His name is Bhola Bhandari (in literal sense, it means an innocent storekeeper or treasurer; it is also a title of Shiv-Shankar in the path of worship). If you make efforts then you can become beads of the rosary of victory (vijaymala). The storehouse is full; and the famines and difficulties are far away.”
(Revised Sakar Murli dated 22.11.05, page 3 & 4 published by BKs)

With the Murli shortage, it seems that the BKs missed the above Murli point all together ... and for reasons like this letter we should value this Forum even more ... click below.
Image

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by mr green » 12 May 2008

Hi John Morgan

My comments weren't directed at you personally, I ment them literally

You see, I really believe ex-l should be allowed to be as horrible as he wants, this is free speech, if others cannot handle him ultimately it is their problem.

Aggressive as he may appear, he is a very direct and honest person. He, like myself, hates bull-******* and double-edged comments, or "diplomacy" as the BKs call it

You see, most BKs come from a false, sterilised environment where swearing and emotion are frowned upon as dirty body-consciousnesss. Many of us here have already surpassed such self-restriction and we can express ourselves strongly, rather than this demand for respect we keep seeing from these weak-minded BKs who come on here, take offence, and then stamp their feet get all sulky and say their leaving ... it's just baby stuff.

That's why I said what I did. You are a regular poster here and not one of these conditional posters. I want everyone to be welcome here and they are BUT I hate all these demands to be spoken to nicely. If that's all that bothers them they deserve to be told to fcuk off.

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by fluffy bunny » 12 May 2008

ms orange wrote:However, may your ill-hearted intentions remain forever fruitless - there are enough of those already in this world.
Diiogenes wrote:But I find the unrelenting hostility you exhibit has me less interested in how right you are, and more aware how consumed by it you are.
Thank you, diogenes. And I am sorry to say again (and again) that I really don't feel motivated by vengeance and hostility over my time in the BKWSU or towards the individuals concerned. Their conduct is to their own conscience, as is the leadership of the BKWSU's. My conscience is fairly clear now that I have done my best to cut through the veil that shrouds it. Perhaps just a little bit more and the light will pour through.

I think the "lone, disgruntled or vindictive ex-BK" is a bit of a myth the BKWSU wants to put about and this site is more a proof that we are much more than that. Surely it cant possibly be truth what we are saying here?


Dedicated, yes. I am doing now what I should have done prior to the time of my involvement with the BKWSU. I am doing it to lay bare, as much as possible, their modus operandi for the sake of the general public and other, would-be BKs. I am inspired by giving them the chance I was denied; to make their own judgment upon the basis of facts and not just faith or PR. If there is any single factor that has shortened my tolerance, it has and is only the disappointing conduct of the BKs I have faced in the last two years or so reacting to bury all of this.

I am surprised that in this discussion, no critique at all is made of ms orange's conduct. Especially given the embedded nature of Ramsay, Inc into the BWKSU. It takes two to tango and I feel that had she or they had met us half way, no situation at all would have arisen. I speak plainly that I have much higher expectation of an "academic" with expertise in ethics. If I ask for reasonable information and it is ignored once, twice, three times ... then I know that my intelligence is being insulted.

There was no willingness to cooperate or meet reasonable requests (e.g.; no "Murlis issue" discussion, no copy of "Duty of Care" documents, no discussion of finances and the ridiculous runaround over "asking the producer" when we discover that Robin Ramsay had already been requested for information right back at the start of the thread and never offered any either), so what was she doing here? Expecting to waltz in as a VIP BK and act as school prefect?

I promise you that in private I tried to reason with her and offered my wholehearted assistance (on the basis that she equally share with me back. Personally, I was being fobbed off and talked down to, expected to be stupid and easy meat like junior BKs I suppose. I am left with the feeling that all the work over the historical revision etc is just going to be co-opted, whitewashed in an "acceptable form" and fed back to the lower BK classes.

It is public record that ms orange has received many privileges within the BKWSU system based not on her own adherence to the principles but, in my analysis, based on the financial generosity and family. A Westerner in India is a bit of a VIP and all that worthy UN stuff ... perhaps she thinks that is normal for BKs and I rubbed her up because I took her instead on face value and did not afford her the same?

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by joel » 12 May 2008

ex-l wrote:
I did not find this post through a forum search. Perhaps it is personal mail. I would be interested, if more text is available, or ms orange would care to clarify, what she imagines these so-called ill-hearted intentions are.

Soul-conscious BKs are better than human, except when they project negativity onto others by pigeonholing feisty bulldog assertiveness (for whatever motivation) as vice, which is one of their codewords for evil. "The world is vicious," the Murli says and BKs repeat. That is certainly negative projection. Like saying children are snakes and scorpions. The sad asserting of superiority by throwing mud at the rest of the world, including all scientists, whom BKs negatively characterize (following the spook) as being sleepless and peaceless due to their endless questioning. More negative vision. Transparently false if you've ever shared the inquisitiveness, enthusiasm, brilliance and passion of individuals who choose to explore the sciences.

I am sorry to say the BK vision of negativity is creating Iron-age in the here and now.

Re-reading this, ms orange does not accuse ex-l of vice, only ill-hearted intentions. That is my jumping to conclusions, perhaps my negative vision. I welcome clarification of what is ill-hearted intention in ex-l's behavior. How is it that I can read him and live with it? Am I so freaking positive? I must be inlighented.

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ms orange's post and link

Post by tete » 12 May 2008

Psycho-spiritual preparation for and response to disaster post ... (http://www.brahmakumaris.info/forum/vie ... 590#p22884)
ms orange wrote: Yes indeed, my thesis will certainly be more rounded and thorough now, but not in the way that you may think or hope. And your kind offer of help (and at first I did see it as that) was conditional, as was mine. For there is little trust between us now, although we both claim interest in the same thing - truth, openness and transparency. My only condition in our private history discussion was that it be a fully investigated history that revealed all the complexity of that time with stories from both sides. That it not be used as an opportunity to slam the BKs. In reply you condoned "slamming" and "exorcism" as you put it. I do not wish to work this way, either as an academic or a human being.

This site will certainly be included in my thesis, and I am taking professorial advice so as to not let my own personal experience and proximity to the situation sway my perspective. The advice I have received so far, based on their academic and disinterested position, is to cease communication to protect the integrity of our research work. So ... third time lucky!

I wish you no ill will. In fact, now that I know who you are, I feel more for you than before. And I wish you well in your life, and that whatever your pure-hearted intentions and good work come to fruition. I wish you peace, happiness, love and comfort in your life. However, may your ill-hearted intentions remain forever fruitless - there are enough of those already in this world.

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by fluffy bunny » 12 May 2008

joel wrote:I did not find this post through a forum search. Perhaps it is personal mail. I would be interested, if more text is available, or ms orange would care to clarify, what she imagines these so-called ill-hearted intentions are.
Post private messages, moi? Never. Try a "fruitless search" and it might be fruitful.

I hope that I do not frighten her off but I think one of the most important issues that mr green brought our attention to was that one must not hear just the words but rather listen acutely to the spirit or intent behind them. Coming from an Australian Government sponsored "Endeavour Research Fellow" (Total Award Value up to $AUD 23,500) working on a paper about her own aggressively evangelistic millenarianist religion, cough, that to me reads as a bit of a dark curse ... which thankfully I am immune to. A broad salvo that my intention towards "who or what" is ill-hearted and doomed ... mwahahahahah! I mean, thank you Joel ... So, please, what do you mean, ms orange? I am stunned by the implicit judgment behind such a suggestion from someone trained in counseling etc.

Frankly, I have some friends that call me a **** and I take no offence because I know that what they mean. What I feel is, "I love and respect you, and we have a good time". Contradicting that with some of the tortuous "positive thinking" I get from BKs, I know which one I prefer. And, thank you mr green for recognising that and how free it feels to take of the shackles of BK speech control and to express our own spirit creatively. Not a corporate one.

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by bluesky » 12 May 2008

I think we have to see what benefits we can achieve in this forum as a whole and as individuals. It seems like sometimes we are caught in individual’s communication style without understanding why something is being probed or discussed. From what I read and understood, ex-I appears to be a straight shooter and critical in his approach but it doesn’t make him a bad person. Since there are many people, in this forum, with diversed background, styles, experiences, spiritual beliefs, personalities, commitment etc, it is natural to have conflicts. Perhaps we have to minimize such conflicts, and discuss in a respectful but in-depth way. However, it is not fair to expect ex-I to change dramatically as personal style is very hard to transform and his experiences shape the way he thinks, just as everyone’s experiences shape their thinking.

I think he probes into views, beliefs, norms, attitudes to surface the “hegemony” that is taking place. This is a difficult thing to do. Some of his assertion towards ms. orange is a result of his beliefs about the existence of levels in BKs and how people get oppressed by such levels. We have to respect his views and experiences. I am sure this serves as weaknesses on his part but it is good for an in-depth forum discussion. Perhaps someone who had played devils advocate would understand that this is not an easy role. It seems that some people could not take it or could not understand it appropriately as truth is, sometimes, bitter. People tend to stereotype ex-I based on what others have said.

However, I do agree that sometimes, ex-I is quick to respond without clarifying or asking what people meant by a particular statement, and perhaps he should work on that, but, again I don’t think this is a big issue. Probably ex-I is interested in knowing the truth to the deepest. Overall, I support ex-I for providing the forum with rich and enormous ideas and resources. So I think all of us should move on, life has to go on, we want to know more and more ...

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by joel » 12 May 2008

Search Page wrote:No posts were found because the word ill-hearted is not contained in any post.
Positive-thinking search function, that.

Reading through the thread, Ms. Orange's research about disaster preparedness and spirituality now begins to ring bells. Within the BK sect, soul-consciousness is believed to enable people to practice detachment, which they assert is necessary for a person to make cool and rational choices. The BKs also believe that detachment enables genuine love, because other love, ordinary human love, is tainted by personal desires and expectations. It is an article of deep faith for them. You have to be ready, they say, to shed your body the way a snake sheds its skin. No doubt Ms. Orange will be investigating how soul- and god-consciousness within the BKs has helped them function in disasters.

She may be interested in telling the BK side of the Bhopal Disaster. The BKWSU has a center there. I was a good BK and did not question the BK account I heard at the time. Hear is how I remember it being told.
Baba, knower of the three-aspects of time, called all of the Bhopal BKs to Madhuban for special training around that time, leaving only one sister there to look after the center. In the night as she sat in Baba's remembrance, she seemed to hear Baba saying, "Sweet Child, close all the windows." The voice was patient but insistent. She closed the windows. She went back to her meditation. Baba pulled her into a powerful stage of detachment. She was lost in remembrance. Then Baba said to her, "Sweet Child, drink some water." An obedient child, she drank up plenty of water. Finally, Baba told her, "Now sleep, my Child." She obeyed and drifted off to sleep full of thoughts of her Beloved, in the lap of His remembrance.

During the night there was shouting and other noise but the sister continued to sleep deeply. Outside the safety of Baba's home, illness and death stalked those who had the misfortune to be in the streets. Some three thousand died that night.

The next morning, the sister arose with nothing worse than a sore throat. Opening the doors, she viewed the carnage in the streets. She then went among the victims, comforting them and helping with what she could, but the greatest help was in her loving words, which helped to lift them out of their pain and gave them strength to endure their hardships.
Perhaps others can find a written account to corroborate the above, which is what I recall from tellings by Br. Nirwair Singh and Lee James. No doubt many BKs will have stories to share with Ms. Orange of Baba's divine protection. Brother Ramnath (then of the Madhuban sweetmeats department) told me three; "Facing down a tiger" (he actually took me to the rock where the tiger was blocking his way), "Finding himself standing upright after the bus he was riding on a program for Baba's service rolled over", and third, the story of a BK truck driver bringing produce to Mt. Abu who was in an accident in a small town that injured/killed a man. A group of people quickly gathered, and they were angry, shouting, "Where's the driver? Where's the driver?" His intellect was touched by Baba. Instantly he joined the mob shouting "Where's the driver? Where's the driver?" He returned after dark and was able to drive safely to his destination.

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