ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by john morgan » 07 May 2008

To clarify my previous post I feel a lot more comfortable with the interviewing technique that is employed in Desert Island Discs :D

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by arjun » 07 May 2008

alladin wrote:ex-l, during the days of the "legal case", asked me not to post anything that I could not substantiate. I thought this was unpractical, since I haven't been recording all the episodes of abuse etc ... I went through as a BK, I wasn't going around with a tape recorder in centers, but I remember instances and conversations, atmospheres etc. All is recorded in me.
I think the requirement of substantiating one's statement prevents many Members from posting their experiences here. Otherwise, Members would have much more sensational things to reveal than that is being revealed at present.
bkti-pit wrote:Besides that, I want to mention that regarding ethics, I am not talking only of worldly ethics, but even in terms of Brahmin standards according to Shrimat. Any Murli scholar can support that, even those who have full disbelief in BapDada. Is there one line in the Murlis supporting the production and sale of artistic or educational material containing tactfully dressed Gyan designed to bring benefit to souls as a fund raising material to support the charitable activities of the BKWSU or its affiliates?

Did we not hear unlimited times that it was better to die than to beg, that if someone offers us money we should not take it but tell them that if they want to help they can print some leaflets, etc?
“Father shows the path – one has to show mercy or pity upon oneself. Teacher teaches; He will not give blessings. It is better to die rather than to seek blessings, mercy, and pity. One should not seek money from anyone. Children are strictly prohibited (from doing so). Father says that as per drama those who have sown the seed and obtained the inheritance in the previous Kalpa will do automatically. You do not seek for any task. If anyone does not do then he/she will not gain. People give alms or perform good deeds, then they get returns, isn’t it? They take birth in the house of a king or a prosperous person. Those who have to do, will do automatically. You must not seek. To whatever extent whoever has done in the previous Kalpa, the drama will make them to do. Where is the need to seek? Baba keeps telling that the hundi (boxes kept in the temples for offerings of money to God) keeps getting filled for service. Will I tell the children, “Give money?” The matters of path of worship (Bhaktimarg) do not exist in the path of knowledge (gyaanmarg). Those who have helped in the previous Kalpa will keep helping. One must never seek on one’s own. Baba says, “Children, you cannot collect funds.” This is done by Sanyasis (monks). In the path of worship, even if we give a little, then we get in return for one birth. But this is for many births. So it is good to give everything for many births, isn’t it? His name is Bhola Bhandari (in literal sense, it means an innocent storekeeper or treasurer; it is also a title of Shiv-Shankar in the path of worship). If you make efforts then you can become beads of the rosary of victory (vijaymala). The storehouse is full; and the famines and difficulties are far away.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 22.11.05, page 3 & 4 published by BKs)

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by andrey » 07 May 2008

Even as community we have no power to change anyone, he has to change himself as he wishes. We know that the aim justifies the means, so the aim is that no one goes to Bk anymore. Instead of pursuing this aim if a newbie sees whatever happens he will just see quarrel and will say a person who behaves like this must not be right, so aim is not achived. Critics are constructive if they are good willed. Is there the intention to close the BK or just change it?

Nevertheless if two people fight it is fun only in the beginning. To me it also seems like media play. Today media people go here and there and ask questions in a very arrogant way and it is all made for the sake of the public. For me, and maybe for anyone, even a new one who can come and it is already clear in a very clear way that in the Bk there is matter of money, control etc. I, personally, as part of the public am not interested in such revelations, so my name should not be used when the person says he does it for the sake of humanity.

Maybe indeed we should rather change the track and instead try to make everyone feel at home here. Otherwise they will go back to the Bk where they at least smile at you when they beat you. Or it may be that it is some call for balance. If too much of this point of view comes then someone else should come.

I wonder why the financial part is so often raised by ex-l. If he is financially maintaining the forum we should feel uncomfortable. We know in the past he paid for some materials.

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by john » 07 May 2008

Maybe an important issue is anonymity.

I think those wishing to remain anonymous should be able to do so, but if somebody does reveal their identity and they are seen as a BK going against Shrimat, then really they should expect the activities they are connected with to be scrutinized because that is partly what this forum is about. Getting deeper behind the whiter than white image BKSWU tries and present itself as.

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by john morgan » 07 May 2008

john wrote:Maybe an important issue is anonymity. I think those wishing to remain anonymous should be able to do so, but if somebody does reveal their identity and they are seen as a BK going against Shrimat, then really they should expect the activities they are connected with to be scrutinized because that is partly what this forum is about. Getting deeper behind the whiter than white image BKSWU tries and present itself as.
The norm here is anonymity. If it naturally follows that the revealing of ones identity entitles to an inquisition of ex-I proportions into one's activities and motives there will not be many takers. The wishes of those who wish to remain anonymous are sacrosanct here (past, present and future). The truth of many who have experienced deep hurt through their Raja Yoga study has probably been diluted by them in order to protect their anonymity, the reason most give is repercussions, though I cannot in my blindness see what there is to lose by speaking the whole truth as one sees it, after all what else is there? Facts tend to much speak louder than vague generalisations.

ms.orange seems to me to be an active and dedicated BK, I would be very surprised if she were to experience any repercussion because of her honesty and straightforwardness.

The true issue in everyone's life is what to do with ones time and energy. Whilst there may be a few BK who are engaged in "historical revisionism" for some of their time, true BK are engaged in making themselves "whiter than white," the study is for life. This aspiration, from my perspective is admirable, purity is very rare on this planet and I think the most beautiful quality, perhaps the chance of inculcating it in ones own life should not be missed. To be distracted by others actions and forget the first sentence of this paragraph would be most unfortunate.

There are real issues that are addressed in this Forum, I consider that the work here is very necessary. I hope it continues until the BK stop doing a Caesar and washing their hands of those who experience long term negative reactions from the study. Much of the BK study does seem to be God's work, the activity and focus is exceptional. It is not my part to tell BK what to do, but the abdication of responsibilty that has been seen to date does not seem to be his work at all. I may be wrong here (as well as elsewhere :D) as I think I saw somewhere that Bap Dada knows about this forum, that means he knows everything else too :?:

If one were to look at the effect of ex-I's interrogation of ms orange and the condition in which many have left the BK then ex-I is comparatively whiter than white! :D

Thanks to all,

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by john » 08 May 2008

john morgan wrote:
The true issue in everyone's life is what to do with ones time and energy. Whilst there may be a few BK who are engaged in "historical revisionism" for some of their time, true BK are engaged in making themselves "whiter than white," the study is for life. This aspiration, from my perspective is admirable, purity is very rare on this planet and I think the most beautiful quality, perhaps the chance of inculcating it in ones own life should not be missed. To be distracted by others actions and forget the first sentence of this paragraph would be most unfortunate.
If 'historic revisionism' and Murli revision leads souls away from the truth then the journey towards purity is surely confounded?

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by fluffy bunny » 08 May 2008

andrey wrote:I wonder why the financial part is so often raised by ex-l. If he is financially maintaining the forum we should feel uncomfortable. We know in the past he paid for some materials.
What do we "know", andrey? Pray, do enlighten me and provide your evidence.

For the record, I DO NOT pay for the hosting of this website and I cannot see any material costs for it bit I DID paid for are the copying of the old original documents at the library that I used in exposing the historical revision. Where is the sin in that? Why the money? Because "energetic" and "material exchange", for which money is the metaphor in today's day and age, is the reality of our souls expressing themselves in this world. The BKWSU might 'say' it has been established to "alleviate poverty" but if the people it materially benefits are its leadership and the rich and famous, then that is its reality manifesting. My mantra for them is "show me". I encourage others to try it. You say you are so divine and noble ... "show me". Where is your practical manifestation? Sitting in the bank or invested in impressive buildings in nice areas ...

I do, and will, offer to pay what I can afford for a touch typist to type up or scan in the Murlis so that we can study them ... if and when that can be arranged. I have no problem with that. I cannot physically do it and so I am happy to pay a professional for a service just as I would a plumber to fix my pipes. If you have any evidence to suggest otherwise then "put up or shut up", as they say where I come from.

I think this issue of "anonymity" is overplayed. The first time it was raised was by the BKWSU team that was "managing" correspondence with Jayanti Kripalani and the BK who made a point of it said that companies or organisations do not accept anonymous complaints and so therefore they could dismiss us. A weak defence laced with conceit in my opinion. Of course, that is not true. If you wish to raise difficult issues with, say, the United Nations Organization as some have done, they have an anonymous mediation or ombudsman service. Governments, police, politicians, good newspapers, tax departments, independent authorities etc will all handle issues anonymously on behalf of others and protect their sources.

I think the truth of it all is that in the beginning it was quite innocent. How many people join any internet forum with their real name? Only a tiny few. For most it was a nickname and a bit of fun. for me, something shorter than typing my whole name in each time. I went to take the lid off the Tao of the Traveller way before any related individual came on the forum. It takes two to tango and I see that few to none of you are questioning the conduct on the otherside, some of which only she and I are privvy to, i.e. private messages.

I think this continued discussing is good and it might lead up to redefining the direction of the forum. My suggestion would be to remain open to all but return to our roots prioritising support for ex-BKs and Friends and Family of. This is not the BKWSU and whilst I welcome any open and honest BK or PBK, the forum should not be limited to or conform either of their standards. I think we should 'set the bar' higher and demand better of both parties.

I take any individual as I find them and respond to how they treat me. I may offend the gentile, bourgeois and pretentious with my directness but I did not "attack" ms orange nor because she was a BK. Another bit of BKWSU myth making there I am afraid.

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by andrey » 08 May 2008

This is not the BKWSU and whilst I welcome any open and honest BK or PBK, the forum should not be limited to or conform either of their standards. I think we should 'set the bar' higher and demand better of both parties.
So i have been left with wrong impression. The aim is not to close the BK. A new group is forming.

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by john morgan » 08 May 2008

john wrote:If 'historic revisionism' and Murli revision leads souls away from the truth then the journey towards purity is surely confounded?
Hi John,

Confounded = mental uncertainty, I presume.
Truth = an accurate record of words or events, I am assuming.

I don't think that the truth of what we are now and what our spiritual potential is has ever been misrepresented by the BK. This statement has a high degree of mental certainty in it. :D

It may not be what you wish to hear when I say that historical revisionism and Murli revision is of little interest to me although I do understand that to some these details are sufficient proof to decide that the study is not worth pursuing.

To find the truth in words is impossible. It is well known that a clever lawyer can get his client off.

But I am not interested in getting the BK off. They are guilty!

They are guilty of living in a very alive and exalted here and now which words cannot catch.
They are also guilty of passing on to others the knowledge and experience that has given them divine strengths and transformed their lives for the better.

My quandry is that I know and love what the BK's are doing, they have banned me from classes, refused to send me Murlis and put the phone down on me. There are many on this forum who have, like me gone through a tough time with them. I play the game knock the BK's because I think the incredible pain and disillusion many have experienced irresponsible. On the other hand I seem to understand their positive activity much better now than ever before and totally approve of a spiritual service that makes man divine and can turn a humdrum life into one of blessings.

In recent years the understanding that improved thought creation is the way of progress and that any quality can be "grown" by putting attention on it has been my good fortune. What is has precedence over what I think should be and I have to make the best of it much the same as anyone else. Though it may be that when what will be has precedence of what is, what will be is.

Reality as I see it is that the BK in their inculcation of purity are not "confounded" in any way, they know exactly what they are doing and why they are doing it - and it works!

Forgive me if I do not totally align my thought forms to those of established members of this forum as I seem somehow compelled to create new ones every day.

It has been said that if you take one step toward god he will take many toward you (the way it works is that you must tread first) it must now be apparent that if you direct one sentence toward me you will receive many more :D

Kindest regards to you John, nice to hear from you. :D

John

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by john » 08 May 2008

john morgan wrote: It may not be what you wish to hear when I say that historical revisionism and Murli revision is of little interest to me although I do understand that to some these details are sufficient proof to decide that the study is not worth pursuing.
For me it is about getting it right. For example,If remembrance is the way to purity, then how does someone find out the correct way if the knowledge is not presented accurately? If Murlis are changed then which bits are accurate, which bits really important?
Historic revisionism is done with a purpose, a purpose to deceive. I don't think it's a case of shuffling a few facts to tidy things up.

If they say they are messengers from God then the message should be accurate, if it's sort of right, what use is that?

This is why I personally think ex-l efforts should be applauded. ex-l has made the effort to get to the truth of matters, which to my mind is the best service to mankind.

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by john morgan » 08 May 2008

Hi John,

If words were the only message the BK carry from God I would agree with you. The main message is that of incredible love. You know, yogic vibrations.

Retranslating a Murli is no crime. And what happened 10 or 20 or 40 or 70 years ago is totally irrelevant if one understands now and its possibilities. Stories of long ago are used by the BK to educate their students in living a spiritual life, its all aimed at eradicating the effect of the past and realising ones true potential.

If the past was that important we would all be hungry for past experiences. Some yogis seemingly use the fact that they met Braham Baba as a kind of status symbol but their true intent is to indicate that he passed something along, which they also wish to pass along, something very valuable.

You say that historic revisionism is done with a purpose, to deceive. In my last post was the following

I don't think that the truth of what we are now and what our spiritual potential is has ever been misrepresented by the BK. This statement has a high degree of mental certainty in it.

How are the BK trying to deceive? By getting a few facts wrong? Give me some clear examples please. Very often it is the significance of the fact that is of value, not the fact itself.

You have brought ex-I and his research into this mini debate. I would not be the slightest bit surprised if the BK were very appreciative of his work in terms of historical accuracy. Nothing here is a slight on ex-I, his research has value and I for one am most appreciative of his multi faceted nature. I have mentioned this elsewhere.

Because the study is so deep and necessitates major change it can be very hard for some. Total change in ones nature is possible but only if one understands that the study is very personal and learns to dive deep within him/herself. To look around see what others are doing is necessary (student life, co-operation, service etc.) but the real value is in what a person finds in themselves and utilises in the light of knowledge. To be distracted and cease to make effort is something less than finding gold.

John, It may seem that I have Shanghai'd you in mentioning "historical revisionism" in a paragraph about purity, its beauty, and perhaps its significance. If such is the case I apologise, though I would have much preferred you to home in on the main issue. Its interesting is not it how we pick this or that up and leave something else just laying there?

Kindest regards and thanks,

John M.

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by john » 08 May 2008

john morgan wrote:You say that historic revisionism is done with a purpose, to deceive. In my last post was the following, I don't think that the truth of what we are now and what our spiritual potential is has ever been misrepresented by the BK. This statement has a high degree of mental certainty in it. How are the BK trying to deceive? By getting a few facts wrong? Give me some clear examples please. Very often it is the significance of the fact that is of value, not the fact itself.
Hi John,

Well, where do I start? Really everything is documented on this forum.

BKSWU of today's version - Shiva revealed himself in 1937 in dramatic fashion as an incarnation into Dada Lekhraj
BKSWU original version - Shiva wasn't even mentioned until 1950's, before that Dada Lekhraj as Prajapati Brahma was considered to be God.

Murli point stating that Shiva does not incarnate into a virgin has been changed to read Shiva does incarnate into a virgin. This I believed was changed because it did not fit with God using Dadi Gulzar as a Chariot.
Age of Dada Lekhraj changed from 54 to 60 as his age at the start of the Yagya (1937), because it says in Murli Shiva enters the Chariot at the retirement age, which is considered to be 60.
If words were the only message the BK carry from God I would agree with you. The main message is that of incredible love. You know, yogic vibrations.
BKs are supposed to be messengers of God, in the Murli the main message is to study Gyan and have remembrance. I am not saying exclusively this,but that it is the main message.
Retranslating a Murli is no crime.
I beg to differ for a BK and the BKSWU it is the ultimate crime.

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by mr green » 08 May 2008

the forum is percieved as the arse-hole of hell already by any BKs indocrinated enough to not have free thought

the forum is what it is, the people who post here have free speech and are able to express their personalities

if someone doesn't like the personalities here, then F U C K off and go start your own forum, good luck to yu

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by fluffy bunny » 08 May 2008

pilatus wrote:Thanks for your various inputs and by my count that makes it about 80-20 in support of ex-l's approach and tone, so I bow to your collective opinion.
Or possibly supporting the approach and excusing the tone on the basis of the results?
john morgan wrote:Retranslating a Murli is no crime ...
Let me slide gently down your throat (or onto your mouse finger if that is the modern equivalent) with my recycled army boots on too then.

john morgan ... have you read any of this forum before going off on your own thing!?! We are not talking about "retranslation" if that is what the BKs are saying now. We are talking about ... erasure ... omission ... and outright changing ... "re-writing".

I will add another one to john's list. In my time the Murlis used to say "Destruction in 50 years, creation in 50 years". Then they changed it to 60/40 years. Then they CELEBRATED their 70th Anniversary all the BKs wibbling the mantra together, "God never gives a specific date for Destruction" and sweeping all the failed predictions going right back to WWII under the carpet each time. Have they changed it again, or removed it?
the forum is percieved as the arse-hole of hell already by any BKs indocrinated enough to not have free thought
Gosh ... mr green makes me feel proud all over to be amongst you all. :oops:

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Re: ex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived?

Post by john morgan » 08 May 2008

Hi John,

Thanks for that!

Do you think everyone got together to do this or was it just a few people?

To be honest (don't you just hate it when people say that, makes one wonder what they say the rest of the time :roll: ) what speaks louder for me than any words can is my experience of divine vision (seeing the Subtle Region) and ecstasy that took place shortly after I entered Gyan many moons ago. More recently there was the experience of what I took to be a Golden Aged state with no BK around. After each insight karma comes tumbling down. I suspect that the reason I also get mini guidance type insights is that I do not attend classes. There is much much more that I never talk about.

I really did think that Gyan was all over for me when three years or so ago it came alive. Next I'll be saying that I've been looked after all my life. I do suspect that this may be true, either that or escapology is my forte :wink:

Those that study well and have remembrance automatically create yogic vibrations, in service type situations (I talk nowadays in non Gyan words) it sometimes seems as if that point of light that can fly anywhere in a fraction of a second adds his bit too. Service is my favourite activity. :D

Thanks for taking the trouble to provide the information in your last post, I appreciate it.

Kindest regards,

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