Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

for ex-Brahma Kumaris, to discuss matters related to their experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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driedexbk
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Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: It has been over a year that I left the center but still there is a lot of pain in my heart...pain caused by deception. I went in looking to come into grips with my own sense of self and came out with no faith at all. The experience was so bad at times that now I am clear there is no such a god. For that I am grateful. Yet, there were other moments that I would not change for the best of my experiences. I experienced love as I had never imagined! It was a beautiful experience of forbidden love.

Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by driedexbk » 12 Apr 2008

enlightened wrote: "Anger is an energy that one is clearly not allowed to express in this organisation or in a life of a BK,..."
No, Enlightened. I have experienced the anger of some BK's in many occasions, thus it is not "clearly not allowed to express" (anger). The BK's allow themselves to do whatever they feel like doing. Go tell the Seniors in charge of the region the atrocities that some are doing and see what they tell you. This is just a business. They will never get rid of who they have in their centers because there is not too many who are willing to surrender to them.

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by enlightened » 12 Apr 2008

driedexbk wrote:No, Enlightened. I have experienced the anger of some BK's in many occasions, thus it is not "clearly not allowed to express" (anger).
Hi Dried Ex BK

Maybe I should have said that 'anger is not encouraged within the organisation'. I don't know if you remember or not but their teachings clearly said that anger is one of the 5 vices and that we should keep away from those 5 vices.

Of course, what I am sharing is from the perspective of being a very young child who is growing into a teenager and then adult and receiving this kind of dogma from a very young age. The reality was/is, of course that some BK's did get angry, especially the senior BK's from time to time, however, from the eyes of a child, it was a very confusing message, one that a growing child should not be exposed to.

I find that as a result of not being able to express my anger etc, that people have taken and still take me for a ride. People have taken and still take advantage of me. I think that the restrictions I was brought up with have made me feel very powerless in many situations I come across even today.

Sometimes, I just observe the children of today in general and think, wow, look how expressive they are.

It was drummed into my head that I have to be good all the time, I have to be positive all the time, that I must not get angry, that I must do what god says or else I will be punished, I mustn't read novel, I mustn't watch tv or films, I mustn't go out with friends, I mustn't go to the cinema, I mustn't eat out, I mustn't eat food made by other people, I must only eat food prepared by BK's, I must be detached from all my friends and relatives, I mustn't go to parties, I must not have any desires, I must not have a boyfriend/girlfriend, I must not get married, I must live a celibate life, I mustn't have children, only the BK knowledge taught in the BK university with create your future fortune, study in other universities is only temporary and will not create your future fortune, destruction is coming so do as much service as you can now, give your bones to service, give all your mind, body and wealth to God. etc.

I could go on and on but this is only one hundredth of stuff that was drummed into my subconscious.

I was told that if there is something wrong, then just go and sit in front of 'Baba' and it will get resolved. I wasn't allowed to communicate my feelings especially with the Seniors. If I did, then they would say you think too much or that things will sort themselves out. If I was abused, I was told well that's your problem, you shouldn't have allowed it to happen.

Basically, there was no where I could turn to. It felt like every where I turned to, someone slams the door shut on my face. Eventually, this too made me feel very lonely, isolated, shut of from the world, dull, too quiet, passive, unable to express, unable to get success in my education, unable to get success in my career, unable to have success in day to day relationships.

I just felt like my life was like a zombi. It was only when I stopped going to the Brahma Kumaris, only when I stood back that I began to realise what a mess my life has been, how dominating and controlling some of the members and senior members are and have been, that I began to question some of the things I lived and witnessed.

Going through the process of psychotherapy has actually brought me back in touch with my true self, with my true feelings. It feels so good to be in touch with myself again! It feels great to see how wonderful life can actually be without being bombarded with any kind of doctrine, dogma, restrictions, rules, regulations etc It feels good to be me... :D

Regards
Enlightened

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driedexbk
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Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: It has been over a year that I left the center but still there is a lot of pain in my heart...pain caused by deception. I went in looking to come into grips with my own sense of self and came out with no faith at all. The experience was so bad at times that now I am clear there is no such a god. For that I am grateful. Yet, there were other moments that I would not change for the best of my experiences. I experienced love as I had never imagined! It was a beautiful experience of forbidden love.

Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by driedexbk » 12 Apr 2008

Dear Enlightened:

Of course I remember very "clearly" the teachings (or better said "the indoctrination") of the BK's. I witnessed their actions and came to the conclusion that what they say is not always (many times) in harmony with what they do.

My experience is very much like yours. One does not need to be young of age to be equally affected by the harm of a cult. I may have been in an older body but the mind was very much in a very young state of susceptibility. Indeed, just like a child I was very credulous, innocent, sensitive and responsive. I may even dare to say I was very pure. My life before the BK's was conducted in the highest sense of morality. I never indulged in things like drinking, smoking, drugs, lust, etc. However, when with the BK's, I experienced one of those vices which perhaps in society could be considered morally wrong and impure. I leave it to that.

You said that it was only when you stopped going to the Brahma Kumaris, only when you stood back that you began to realise what a mess your life has been, how dominating and controlling some of the members and senior members are and have been, that you began to question some of the things you lived and witnessed. This was different for me. I realized all of that you mention while I was with them (BK's) not after. Having those realizations is what brought me forth to leave them. Are you sure you did not have these thoughts while you were still with them? What gave you light to leave?

I celebrate with you that sense of freedom that is to be in touch with the true self and feelings of not having to comply to any sort of conditioning and demands of abusive indoctrination. I am very glad for you. Congratulations!

Warm and kind regards,

Driedexbk

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My pms are shut down by me. Thank you and best wishes to
you in your life's journey. :-)

Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by tete » 12 Apr 2008

Enlightened,
Enlightened wrote:I find that as a result of not being able to express my anger etc, that people have taken and still take me for a ride. People have taken and still take advantage of me. I think that the restrictions I was brought up with have made me feel very powerless in many situations I come across even today
Oh, I could tell you some stories on this topic alone and how in the beginning I would feel totally stumbled.
Enlightened wrote:It was drummed into my head that I have to be good all the time, I have to be positive all the time, that I must not get angry, that I must do what god says or else I will be punished, I mustn't read novel, I mustn't watch tv or films, I mustn't go out with friends, I mustn't go to the cinema, I mustn't eat out, I mustn't eat food made by other people, I must only eat food prepared by BK's, I must be detached from all my friends and relatives, I mustn't go to parties, I must not have any desires, I must not have a boyfriend/girlfriend, I must not get married, I must live a celibate life, I mustn't have children, only the BK knowledge taught in the BK university with create your future fortune, study in other universities is only temporary and will not create your future fortune, destruction is coming so do as much service as you can now, give your bones to service, give all your mind, body and wealth to God. etc.
Oh, but you are a breath of fresh air for me. I literally cried upon reading your first post. When I was on xBKchat I remember writing about how my family member did not know certain songs or films and how sad that was. The exposure and the love of all those things is there now but it took a little effort ... ITS OK. Dancing, well OK that will never be mastered :shock: but it is fun to watch someone try! :oops:

I think your post is a "CLASSIC POST" and it sure made my day. You know the feeling of being OK, when you know someone else knows ... yup then it is OK to be me too. Like little kids, dusting ourselves off and joking about "You fell too"! :D
Driedexbk wrote:Of course I remember very "clearly" the teachings (or better said "the indoctrination") of the BK's. I witnessed their actions and came to the conclusion that what they say is not always (many times) in harmony with what they do
.
That is classic, do as I say and not as I do.... :shock:

Regards,
Tete

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by arjun » 12 Apr 2008

driedexbk wrote:Of course I remember very "clearly" the teachings (or better said "the indoctrination") of the BK's. I witnessed their actions and came to the conclusion that what they say is not always (many times) in harmony with what they do.
Who said BKs/PBKs do not get angry? Of course they are directed by ShivBaba not to get angry, but if all BKs/PBKs (including me) were following His directions, then long ago Avyakt BapDada would not have felt the need to announce that in future he would not meet those who get angry.

Avyakt BapDada has been meeting more n more BKs ever since, but in case of ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) I personally know of many cases where PBKs who were in the habit of getting angry and even physically hurting others were banned from entering the mini-Madhubans for some time (weeks, months or years).
I generally try not to get angry, but once in a few months, I do get angry when I have been wronged beyond the level of tolerance. But generally even that anger is artificial, just to make the other person realize the mistake and in most cases I seek pardon for having expressed my anger.

On 2nd April I had intimated on the forum that I (along with some of my office colleagues) had been fooled by another colleague, who played a serious joke (amounting to breach of trust) resulting in myself becoming a butt of jokes in many sections of the office; I was really upset and did not talk to that colleague for two days, but from the third day it was back to normal. It was only because of following the BK/PBK path of knowledge/RajYoga that I could overcome the problem in such a short period.

By the way, I feel that those who express their anger and forget it later or seek pardon for it are better than those who allow the anger to grow within while acting to be sweet from outside.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by john morgan » 12 Apr 2008

Somehow this topic moved to one of anger and should or shouldn't one express it.

If I first create anger through my response to anything and then bring in a value system that says anger is not good and should not be expressed difficulties arise. The ideal is not to create angry thoughts in the first place. To go deep into the basis by which I create thought is essential and a prerequisite for attaining self control. To watch the whole anger process calmly and deliberately and to become clear about what one is doing takes time.

When a person understands that anger is an undesirable quality and makes effort to change a constructive way of getting the anger already created out of ones system is necessary. One way that could be fun is to pick on the biggest meanest strongest brute you can find and pick a fight with them. :D I personally find that an antidote is much less painful. Supression is not good, if a cycle of anger supression, anger supression continues one does not have to be a nuclear physicist to realise that psychological problems will result.

So what does one do? A few suggestions.

1) Do not beat yourself up..anger is OK!
2) Understand that you are in a learning situation and take your time to make things clear.
3) Replay the situation and your response over and over, if you find you are getting angrier leave it and think peaceful thoughts instead, if you find you are observing that situation more and more with each replay then continue.
4) An outcome of this practice will be that you become clearer about how you create anger and the effect of anger, this clarity saves a lot of energy and other options will begin to pop up in future situations.
5) Control of our thought creation is the topic. As the thought so the destination, each thought is a cause.
6) A caution - Never use force in the world of mind! Be kind and patient with yourself at all times. Clarity is the aim.
7) The power of forgiveness is a soothing balm, to forgive others is good, to forgive ourselves is better.
8) I am not suggesting that one becomes a namby pamby or a doormat here. The point of conquering anger is that energy is no longer wasted, one becomes stronger and more able to shape ones own world with a far wider range of choices.
9) Occassionally one may be in a recurring bull-baiting situation where anger from you is the desired response. If that happens do the replay routine (point 3) for a time and then one day after the person has done their bit smile as if nothing has happened and offer them a cup of tea.
10) At first these ideas take time, as you go through the process and near the source of your thought creation you will be much more powerful and the whole process will take no time at all.

To have an aim of conquering anger is a remarkable inspiration, from the above it may become clear to you that I have had to deal with many of my own anger issues and that my way works. As such I am a VIP and if you do not accord me the respect that I deserve be it on your own head when I get angry with you. :D Dash, I got it wrong again! :oops:

ps point 8 has somehow come out as "cool", I've tried editing it with no change

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by enlightened » 12 Apr 2008

Thanks everyone for contributing on this topic and on the topic of anger. I just wanted to let you know that there is now a new topic set up on anger for anyone wishing to read or contribute.

Whilst I was reading the first message I wrote on this topic, I seem to remember being told by the members of the BK management as well as in the Murlis that we should even make 'Baba' (Supreme Soul/God) into our child. I seem to remember them saying that if there is any relationship you feel that is missing in your life, then experience that relationship with 'Baba' and you will feel that there is nothing missing in your life.

Were any of you able to experience God in the form of all relationships including bride/bridegroom, husband/wife, child etc. If so, it would be interesting to hear your experiences.

Thanks
Enlightened :)

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unnecessary cruelty

Post by alladin » 14 Apr 2008

Hi, I thought that this was at the moment the most appropriate place for me to quote the post Joel wrote on the Tao's topic, and add a few comments: quoting Joel's post
Joel wrote:Apprenticing in Japan traditionally involved subsuming oneself fully to the teacher. It is not surprising or unusual behavior among humans.
I was watching an unusual Japanese movie the other night with a monk living in a tiny temple located in the middle of a lake who got frozen in winter, a small child was adopted by him and initiated,many hardships were shown, etc. Anyway, I was thinking about the "unnecessary cruelty" involved in many initiation rituals and practises. An anthropologist would probably say that wat seems like nonsensical, incomprehensible and unnecessary to one culture, seems absolutely unavoidable and not so brutal in another. It's all relative. I read many times that although femal circumcision is one of the most horrible and barbarian practises in the world, due to social conditioning, women happen to be less marketable and appealing if they don't undergo such mutilation. At this point of time, can spiritual effort makers, especially in the west, thrive without the mutilation of touching and intimacy? Could it be that the inforcement of such a lifestyle is just damaging and carries no benefit at all and is therefore unnecessary cruelty, and just a form of submission required as a proof of fidelity a sect requires from its members if they want to belong to it?
I have many african friends who carry big scars on their faces and bodies, witnessing some ritual they were subjected to. If we start talking about our subtle scars, the story will become an endless one and not very attractive!! :cry:
Joel wrote:Before we were always talking privately in the hallways, outdoors, with our doubts and so-called negative thoughts. This forum is a convenient mostly-unpoliced water cooler for some ex-BKs and fringe BKs to exchange ideas and experiences. It is a lifeline for others feeling isolated--outside the BK embrace for the first time in years. The forum is like first aid for some non-BKs, support and understanding for why their newly converted family members are emotionally remote, unwilling to touch.
I also think that we had to free ourselves from hallway gossiping ( it is not royal!! :wink: )and prison's corridors.
Joel wrote:Some people take the extreme of BK detachment teachings to mean to stop touching their children. Often the BK Sisters don't know that their words are having that impact on the new follower's children. Touch turns out to be very fundamental to the emotional health of all mammals, and especially for the development of young.
Who can deny that, really?
Joel wrote:Shame about feelings of being drawn to touch has led at least one BK woman, Ranjana, to suicide, and this shame is something that BK teachings cause to build in toxic proportions in some people, the way that other people are allergic to cat hair or bee stings.

For those of us adjusting to having been touch-starved or intimacy-starved the stakes are serious, and this forum means a lot by allowing us to speak and be heard.
Shame on any BK who thinks the Forum is just a place where people get the greenlight for lustful practises!

Thank you Joel for drawing our attention!

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by powerful » 16 Apr 2008

Hi enlightened

My story also kind of relates to that of yours, I know where you are coming from because the amount of emotion you have on having lost on major chunk of fun part of life is a little frustrating as I came through the same phase. all my friends and classmates were dating and trying out for spouses and me on other side rejected many proposals from good people as being in BK Im not supposed to get married. The only relief I get is through Murli points which say ' all this is karmic accounts we are repaying for "

powerful

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by pilatus » 16 Apr 2008

Hello powerful (and enlightened),

Welcome to the forum. With you (both) joining in recently there seems to be a growing balance coming to the forum. Look forward to hearing more from you as your perspectives will be quite different from people like me who were only ever what I call "irregular" BK's.

Best wishes,

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by sarah » 16 Apr 2008

paulkershaw wrote: To Enlightened: Thank God for your courage and for accepting your own ability and potential for enlightenment. It has saved you.
Here, here Paul

That was a really moving and heartfelt opening thread Enlightened and comments from pro-BKs such as you should be grateful for your upbringing are just not helpful at all. I thought the point of the ex-BK section on this forum was so that EX-BKs could share without fear of getting a dose of BK dogma and being told to just get back to the Murlis, be celibate and just stop all this nonsence! As for the avatar - it looks pretty unprovocative to me - the very picture of peace if I were to make a comment.

Carry on sharing Enlightened. It took years of BK brainwashing before you finally decided to jump ship, it is going to take a similar amount of time to finally shed that particular skin, so just keep talking and keep going to the therapy and you will get stronger every day.

Sarah

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by powerful » 17 Apr 2008

Well

I guess PBKs are not any less than BKss. sisters in PBKs are also maintaining celibacy being in the ashrams. I don't understand why are the BKs being commented in celibacy and PBKs follow the celibacy for women, such an irony. It just boils down to the point that use your own brain to understand ShivBaba's role in drama. Do not get carried of by other people's versions of Gyan.

powerful

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by bkti-pit » 17 Apr 2008

Thanks for sharing your experience with us enlightened.

I have always felt sorry for children who were forced into the BK life by their parents. It is good that these things can be mentioned openly here.
enlightened wrote:Were any of you able to experience God in the form of all relationships including bride/bridegroom, husband/wife, child etc. If so, it would be interesting to hear your experiences.
Experiences are many ... My first experience was God the mother. Then came the friend. The Father was much later. God has been my son and my daughter ... Laughter has been our lot.

I have experienced myself as being the wife as well as the husband, the parent as well as the child, the little boy sitting on his dad's shoulders as well as the little girl admiring her hero. I have been the mother breast feeding her new born boy ...

I have felt the hand of the Father on my head and smelled the odor of his skin. I felt the soft lips of the loved one on my cheek, the soft touch of her hand, my eyes drowning in her eyes, my fingers caressing her hair. We've had passionate embraces ... I rested my head on the mother's breast, sometimes with tears in my eyes ...

Yes, experiences are many, so many ...

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by arjun » 17 Apr 2008

powerful wrote:I guess PBKs are not any less than BKss. Sisters in PBKs are also maintaining celibacy being in the ashrams. I don't understand why are the BKs being commented in celibacy and PBKs follow the celibacy for women, such an irony. It just boils down to the point that use your own brain to understand ShivBaba's role in drama. Do not get carried of by other people's versions of Gyan.
Dear powerful,
Om Shanti. In matters of dharnaa (including celibacy), PBKs have the same rules as the BKs or even stricter than them because they consider ShivBaba to be present in this world in practical who is guiding/enabling them to follow the directions given in the Murlis and Avyakt Vanis in the true spirit.

But it does not mean that every PBK is following the Shrimat in the true spirit. :lol:
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: unnecessary cruelty

Post by fluffy bunny » 18 Apr 2008

alladin wrote:I was watching an unusual Japanese movie the other night with a monk living in a tiny temple located in the middle of a lake who got frozen in winter, a small child was adopted by him and initiated,many hardships were shown, etc
I think if you check, the movie was Korean. The Koreans are, in general, less refined and more hot headed (or expressive) than Japanese. I appreciate that Asian people look all the same but both parties would be deeply offended at the mistake! :shock:

Even the monks are all kimchee warriors ... so blame it on all the garlic.

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