Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

for ex-Brahma Kumaris, to discuss matters related to their experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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enlightened
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Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by enlightened » 05 Apr 2008

As a child being brought up with the influence of the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University, having a partner was a no-no, getting married was out of the question and having children, well, we were told that why bring more children into the world when Destruction is going to take place anyway? We were also told that we should make ShivBaba (the Supreme Soul) our husband/wife or Bride/Bridegroom. We were told that we should forge all our relationships with the One. That way, you won't feel like you're missing out on anything in life. However, the more I think about this, the more it makes me realise what a load of rubbish that was!!

I don't know about others on this forum, but the more I reflect on this, the more I think that to have a partner, get married and have children etc is quite a biologically natural thing to do in life as a human being. Unfortunately, as i was heavily conditioned in all these aspects that the Brahma Kumaris preached and dictated to me since a very, very young age, I personally have missed out on all of these. To date, I am really really struggling to even think about having a partner never mind anything else. I get the feeling that no one is going to understand me for who I am. No one is going to understand what it means to have lived a celibate life to date. Who is going to respect and accept me for who I am? I feel so messed up not having been able to lead a normal life as a child, adolescent etc.

Coming out of the Brahma Kumaris Organisation has been a blessing in disguise. I am a lot happier with many aspects of my life, however, this side of me is extremely frustrated as I feel I have missed out on a number of things which I should have done when I was much much younger. The older I become (physically), the more complex it feels to now explore having a partner, having a relationship, let alone having kids.

My social life revolved around the BKs and their dogma and so I never really got to experience living a normal social life. It's an area in my life with which I am still struggling and trying to come to terms with.

Has anyone else had similar frustrations in their life as a result of the BK doctrination? If so, how do you go about dealing with your frustration?

Thanks, Enlightened

ermine
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Re: Having a partner, getting married and becoming a mum,dad etc

Post by ermine » 05 Apr 2008

Hello my friend,

I have seen a plenty very clever ladies who has visited the BKs only for one specific purpose, to find out a proper husband or partner. Most of them got through marriage. Unfortunately they are invisible, they are quite happy too. Many of them are still strong believers. I do know precisely how regularly it is happening but only in the big centers across world.

Apparently all of them had sex before and it is easy for them. Particularly the women who had sex before and then it was normal family routine is easy to give up it. There are plenty groups, or different Yoga centers, where members strongly believe that you can be enlightened by proper and specific relationship. But you have to have a partner, the problem of modern world is to have right partner. Your can find him there in Yoga centers. I do not want to give you an advice about it.

I think that an ex-BK, BK or others who are spiritually comprehensive will be better for you because they possibly would understand you. Have you ever been or studied at normal University? Have you ever read books by the Japanese writer Murakami "Underground", "Norway Forest" or other books. I recommend you those books.

Excuse me,

I wish you the best

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Re: Having a partner, getting married and becoming a mum,dad etc

Post by enlightened » 05 Apr 2008

ermine wrote:But your have to have partner, the problem of modern world is to have right partner. Your can find him there in Yoga centers. I do not want to give you an advice about it.
Dear Ermine

Thank you for your response. I just wanted to clarify that I was not asking for advice on where or how to find a partner. I was just asking others about their experiences of how the BK dogma affected them in this area of life and how they may be deal with this. My case, I guess is a little bit different to some people as I was a very young child brought up with a very strong influence of BK dogma.

Regards
Enlightened

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Re: Having a partner, getting married and becoming a mum,dad etc

Post by andrey » 05 Apr 2008

Dear brother,

There are many who follow the BK dogma due to their own choice. Me, myself, I have passed through all those colorful experiences in life you may be longing for before Bk times and i can assure you that you have not lost anything. There is nothing embarrassing about being celibate. It depends on the culture. In some cultures it is expected and normal to be celibate and the contrary is wrong. In the situation we live, this is seen as something embarrassing, people look down on you and one feels as if he misses something, but it is not the case. Even some decades ago, this wild culture was very much more peaceful. Just recently there is this boom, this frivolous behavior is not a positive tendency, leads to the ruining of society and has brought sorrow to many.

In my opinion, you should be grateful that you have been raised in such an environment. To those who have a conscious choice, this knowledge has never been a compulsion. It is said in the Murli that if you cannot stay pure, then you can go in the gutter. We are free. We are the ones to create or ruin our lives. Nevertheless you may think just the contrary now, but the ideas and practices you may have been exposed to, no matter now you may think they have been and are all lies and bad things, they must have brought you good fortune without you even wishing so or realizing.

Maybe it is personal, and for you it could be embarrassing, if we are commenting on your case as if you are on some test. Maybe it would be better if we see and discuss the ideas and dogmas itself, for they may start seeming to hold some essence and not be so bad as you now may think. But maybe you just expect some personal stories and I can tell you about myself as I have been convinced from my own experience that this social life does not bring anything, it is only colorful from outside and empty inside. I have gained many things with the BKs, have changed my life and am happy about it. And the time we live in now is definitely a special time and we should not failing to see, by closing our eyes and killing our consciousness.

It is always like this that if one does not receive something due to his own wish and choice; one does not value it. But it is said that whatever we receive without asking is like milk, whatever we receive after asking is ike water and whatever we take violently is like blood. So you may be much more fortunate then you may think. Where is the need to grab violently from this colourful, fashionable world that as soon as it comes in your hand melts like snow and nothing remains.

We can, of course, live in this world but with our mind we can be peacefull and happy. Is this not whatever everyone looks for. Is this not whatever the BKs look for and is this not the thing everyone looks for. The matter is how an according to me the common way in the open world is does not bring this. If we take the percentage maybe in BK and in the outside world there will be equal percentage of unhappy people. it is just like a small world in the whole world. Everything is the same in some minor form. Those who are happy will be happy in the BK, they will be happy in the outside world.

Let me ask you an opposite matter. Please narrate what is to be brought up in a BK family and why have i not been raised in such. What i have lost due to this etc, what should i do to change this?

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by ermine » 05 Apr 2008

Dear Andrey

Many Thanks and Blessings to you

You have explained everything very precisely and in certain way. In my point of view if i got daughter like pure BK child i would be most happiest Father on the hole world. On other hand if she did something,due to has lost their purity i would not bother at all. Thank you for this message. I 100% agree with you there is nothing interesting in social life at all (for me) it is only empty well-advertised picture. But without it there is no real life in the universal point of view because it exist with combination of others world. Maybe there is no devision at all only in our brain or thoughts and psychological prepositions.
I think it probably very difficult to bear for lady to have such thoughts, I would be very cautious about it. She is very brave and honest to talk about it.
Sorry Again
see you soon

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Apr 2008

Give it a rest andrey ... as soon as someone writes, "It is said in the Murli ..." they give me this picture in my mind of a pundit standing up on a box on in the pulpit, looking up to the sky and heading off into some holy, and wholly irrelevant, rant.

I remember when you first came onto this forum, you were lamenting not having a partner as well. May be if you had played your cards right, you might have pulled here and found a pro-celibate, spiritual partner ... but I think you have blown your chances now!

Enlightened? Hi, and if I have not said it before, welcome.

The simple answer is "without any doubt". It can be hell on earth coming out of the BKs, especially in the area of simple, basic, human relationship. I have heard individuals talk about how even simple, utterly innocent activities; meeting, touching, being relaxed around people are difficult without the kind of spaced out, dislocated, detached feeling that you are living behind a sheet of glass separate from this world about us. It is not easy.

And, if you have had it pumped into you as a child ... then it is going to be 10 times more challenging as, my guess, it will unconsciously conditioned into you, e.g. Destruction, vice etc. But, there is one thing that I would agree with andrey about, and that is I am interested in what your childhood experience was like.

Not because I suspect it was a blissful and wonderful start to life ... quite the opposite ... because I suspect that underneath the thin BK veneer, your mother/parents had just as many ******* up and unresolved problems as any other parent which were all masked, excused and turbo-charged by the injection of Gyan ... and the angels of death, the virgin crones (senior sisters) ... into your lives. For me, I wonder if you had a mother at all ... and so no wonder mothering and families seem to distant for you.

I have also heard a little from others what they do and say to kids in the BKWSU, filling their minds full of nonsense that is not even Gyani but just hoodoo superstition. We had 'sweetsajani' on the forum a few months ago telling us how her mother basically just was not there for her as she ran off the beakies AND dumped additional burdens on her children. You will I suspect read the letter from the brother of the child who was sexual abused. I think more than anything that underlines the type of mental child abuse the BKs do. Destruction ... which has been proven to be false time and time again ... is the worst one. What is the point of living with that cloud over your head ... no wonder you find it sub-consciously hard to conceive of any future.

If you feel like it, please tell us how it was. Let the world know. Speak out. Others will benefit from seeing it in print. Otherwise, use private messaging if you feel more comfortable. I do not know how far you have gotten with relationships but it might be worth talking in practical terms. Others have recommend "gradual" paths back into a healthy "body-consciousness", and I use that in the lokik manner, e.g. things to do to make you feel good about having a body, being in a body like massage, group work etc.

Real life is a bit of a confusion in comparison to life in the BKWSU because there are so many different types but part of being out is that you have to start thinking, planning and acting towards practical, productive and happy futures. You might also need to find a way of explaining your experience to others, as simple as "I was kind of abused as a kid because my mother was in some kind of cult". That is not a crime. You did not chose it yourself. Most reasonable people will accept you on that basis, find it a little interesting and then move on to normal stuff.

Just don't make excuses about it, find a way to laugh at and with it ... just do not start telling people how you worked for a United Nations related NGO saving the world and consulting to Fortune 500 corporations all the time. We are here to listen to you.

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by andrey » 06 Apr 2008

The point was that whatever situation there is for us where we are born and had to live in, we have to find a way to value it instead of complain. In the same way, someone may seek solutions in the BK for the unhappy life they have, but they may become dependent on others, the same way having a partner as a solution, or some other solution, will work for 5-6 days, for as long as the honeymoon lasts. Then reality will show again, so we should not go so much away from these values which will not change from today to tommorrow.

If ex-l thinks this to be a place where we can chat, and meet a spouse, maybe he should propose to admin to have it mentioned in the policy. It is only when she can spit on BKs, and make others spit, that she feels happy, so maybe I am snatching a follower and that's why the reaction.

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by celticgyan » 06 Apr 2008

Dear Enlightened,

I am not sure whether you are male or female. However, to love, for you, willl be easy. I expect the most difficult thing will be finding a perfect match for that. Quite rare indeed outside of spiritual organisations. I suggest a trip to another such organisation - you may meet somebody at a meditation class or some such. Other than that do what I did - go and learn Salsa dancing!! You'll forget everything ...

Good luck

C.

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Apr 2008

Naughty, naughty Andrey ... but I suppose it is a good idea. We could start offering special, non-attached, BK "exing" services. Or make that triple exing services. Personally, I would not want to be indebted on the BKWSU for a date in any manner, even if was through an outright anti-party faction. I would not criticise those BKs that do go off together. I think many BKs would make good partners and the only partners that would understand each other. But I have to have some principles on this forum, you know.

So, yes, please! After all the recent allegations in this area, I ought at least to have some pleasure before the pain. Male, female; two, three legs or four ... it does not matter. Please send me your photo and biodata, and I will offer you some 'one to one' or even group salsa lessons if you wish. Consider it my service to humanity.

Andrey, you never really hung around with the Brahmakumaris that much, did you? One of the funniest thing to watch was some non-BK trying to pick up a BK at a public service event and the BK (who may or may not have been moved) trying hard to use the romantic interest for the sake of service. Some BKs, male and female, were very attractive and would have other falling at their feet, some were completely unaware that the enthusiasm of the student was based on that attraction and not for Baba.

For me, andrey, your responses are too theoretical and bases on an unproven theology. I am reminded of the pictures of Hindu saint stood on a box with one finger in the air point up to God. Its good and inspiring rhetoric BUT it depends on too many suppositions that if questioned logically fail.

There is not enough proof to commit one's life to the BKWSU as yet and we have to question the rights and state of children that has been brought up in a highly unreal scenario in which natural, physical needs and responses are denied and made utterly sinful. Remember we had one grandmother filling infants heads about life in the Golden Age as if it were truth, or others about what was going to happen at Destruction. That is not as healthy as, "study hard, go to university, sort your life out, come terms with your body ... and then question about god".

I am more concerned about all those sisters in India who, once dedicated to the Brahma-kumaris have no way out.

Life is what life is ... personally, I have come to think the "perfect world" view is an illusion based on what I am learning about the BKWSU. I think we all need some "definites" and some serious "answers" before we accept any of it. I am quite sure the individual here has no illusions about some Hollywood or Bollywood wed bliss. I would rather talk them through their experiences about how it was and let them decide, rather than club them down again with BK mental conditioning.

Be happy, be normal. It is the best most of us can hope to be. If someone's next step is to explore how to open up their heart and mind again to normal human beings, I will most certainly discuss that and share experiences.

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by peterbindi » 06 Apr 2008

ex-l wrote:I am reminded of the pictures of Hindu saint stood on a box with one finger in the air point up to God.
May be the definitive information of this finger is not pointing above, but that it stands for 1.

1 God, 1 world, 1 religion etc ... and maybe also 1 woman :roll: :D.

peterbindi.

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by ermine » 06 Apr 2008

Dear ex-lady,

My brilliancy.

You are so specific in your judgments and comments. Could you tell to me, is it a joke or do you entirely think like that? It seems that you make suggestion like a Maximalist Revolutionist - it is wrong, its right - there is no any middle way. BKWSU is normal organization with some difficulties, as everywhere in this world, but the whole of the BKWSU is very well organized for Meditation and Spiritual Tourism. There are more advantages than disadvantages. Have you done something very precisely in you life? The human being factor is everywhere - we always make mistakes.

Lady has been wishing to be normal wife or mother or partner just that, what is the problem? (How many ladies wish same, statistically 14% woman in planet earth are unsuitable for it).

I like you sister, you make this world amazingly beautiful, interesting and perfectly different. You are natural treasure for some feminist's organization, get this lady and go together there to protect women from discrimination. Finally you will find something wrong there but in this world the effect will be positive - it is just the beginning of your career, you can improve, criticize and develop it.

We are always cycling around BK, this world is enormously big and brilliant.

Yours sincerely

see you soon

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Apr 2008

ermine wrote:Could you tell to me, is it a joke or do you entirely think like that?

I like to laugh and I like others laughing, it is very healthy. Sometimes life, and the BKWSU, is a sick joke and only an even blacker joke is the way to cure it. I like other thinking and questioning for themselves too.

But the lasting effects of half-baked BK conditioning is not funny, and so I take that very seriously ... and 'enlightened's' question, who after all started this topic in the ex-BK's forum.

I want to hear more and I would like 'enlightened' to speak out about their experience, the reality of growing up as a child in the BKWSU, not the PR version. We need to be educated and consider it. Individuals need to learn to speak out. One of the great crimes of the BKWSU is that, for all its enlightenment, personal voices are silenced.

So, please, if no one has anything relevant to add, and if anyone just wants to beat 'enlightened' back into position ... back off for a while. There is plenty more elsewhere on the forum to start studying.

Enlightened, sure, I can say more on the subject. What do you want to ask?

The only thing I can add straight off, without asking more, is that - yes - my deepest regret was getting involved with the nonsense that was the BKs back then and wasting my 20s on them. I know a whole load of others in the same boat too, others that would have not had we not been duped by their false history and predictions. But worse than, were the years I spent in a halfway house not know which way to turn or what to do waiting for Destruction.

In fact, it was only coming to the xBKChat and this forum ... along with finding out about all the deception and abuse ... that finally started to unplug me. They say once you have lost respect for someone, they cannot have the same effect over you. Well, I have a well evidence zero respect for the leadership now. It strikes me that by ordinary and spiritual standards they have conned and thereby "stole" their way to where they are now ... and I am sure the whole truth is not out yet.

So, decide and move on and do not remained trapped in the bardo. You should not worry so much. Amazingly there are very good, loving and enlightened people out there ... and people getting on with 'the life' and their lives who will not judge and condemn. The only thing I will say, from my own experience, is that it is likely that you are naive to the ways of the world and so need to learn fast or take care. The regret of not loving, or never having loved, is too much to bare. The other thing is that time is long. I do not know how old you are, and do not suggest you post personal details here, but there is plenty of time. And time is long.

For the virgin crones that run the organization (and some are not so virgin), for them to carry on the fake that has become the BKWSU is no choice. They have no options even if they know that half of it at least is not all true. You do. What are they all doing now? Sitting back and shutting up because it is their retirement policy now? Sticking to the party line because they have no one and no where else to go? I do not see them as being a spiritual giants. You have to consider your own life now, but how to exorcise the ghosts first?

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by enlightened » 06 Apr 2008

Hi everyone

Thanks for all your input. Some of it has been useful. Ermine, I have no idea who you are calling darling, I certainly hope you are not calling me your darling as I am certainly not your darling! You sound to me as if you are quite a confused man.

With reference to my childhood

I think that my parents had been and were going through some difficult times when they were introduced to the Brahma Kumaris or Raja Yoga as it was known as in those days. However, the BK's movement was also a novelty in the West in those days and boy was it rigid. Dadi Janki, Jayanti and Sudesh were all sent to the West out of a burning hot oven of knowledge, meditation, rigidity, control etc. and this is what they projected to young children like myself as well as adults. If you did anything at all that looked like you were talking to a male or female, touching someone, befriending someone, wearing fashionable clothes, having a hair cut, wearing nice jewelery etc, they wouldn't half stare at you and make you feel guilty and shamed. They would even go as far as telling you that they think that it is wrong to do all this. The next thing you know, they would be dictating things through their classes on what it means to be a good BK, what it means to be attached to anyone other than God etc or they would tell an instrument teacher of the centre to dictate things to you.

There were no rules or legislation as far as I am aware about exposing this kind of dogma or doctrine to young children in those days. Parents just used to take their children to the BKs as if it was like going to a church, temple or mosque etc. No one really gave it a second thought.

Unfortunately, as a child, I was brought up to not touch anyone, to not be touched by anyone including my own parents etc, to be detached from my own parents, siblings, uncles, aunts, friends etc. I was, however, mentally, physically and verbally abused by members within the BK organisation as a child, adolescent and in adulthood. I really and truly feel that I have missed out on being a normal child, a child who is supposed to be given affection and who is supposed to express affection to others.

I was brought up to believe that this was the only correct path. Through the teachings, I was also discouraged from going to college or university, going to see films, reading books, participating in sport, going out with friends, eating out, watching tv, importance of career etc. Unfortunately, my parents were not really educated and so I did not get this encouragement from them either, however, I feel that the BK doctrine made things worse for me in certain areas of my life and my future.

It is only recently that I have learned to accept a simple hug from people be it male or female. Even that proved to be extremely challenging at first. Now I think it is only a natural thing to do. Yes, I am naive and I think I will have to learn things quite fast and sometimes I may have to learn things the hard way.

I, personally, don't believe that having a partner, being married or having children is the answer to real happiness in life in today's day and age, but I think one should be given the opportunity to have experimented with it before deciding if it is right for them or not. None of the above should be discouraged especially not to a child. I believe that no one should impose things of this nature on a child whether it is through the Murlis or through their classes, lectures, retreats etc. or by parents.

Fortunately, I am undergoing therapy at the moment which is helping me so so much. Most people cannot hack going through therapy, but I made myself go through therapy no matter how difficult it has proved to be at times. I am also undergoing other therapies alongside the talking one. Getting back to some kind of normality has proved to be quite costly and time consuming, but I am determined to at least lead the rest of my life with some kind or normality. I can truly say that at last I am being enlightened.

There are many things that I could share with you, however, I am restricted in order to protect myself.

Best wishes
Enlightened

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Apr 2008

Why is just "being yourself" and "being normal" not enough? Why the need to be an angel, "one of the 8", or a diamond encrusted deity?

I heard a new one about Jayanti recently. I have it second hand via a BK acquaintance and so I would like someone else to confirm it. Apparently she gave a class in Madhuban about how BKs should not go shopping in India. Something to the extent that they came with money to "give Baba" ... by which I translate as "give to the World Renewal Trust (aka BKWSU)" ... but instead they went shopping with some of it instead and how they ought to make sure they "give it all to Baba first". Is this true?

Enlightened ... you have come a very long way and I respect you. I have questioned a lot the way SS treat young women. To the West, the BKs are kind of sold as "feminists" of a sort. I cannot see it really. I think it is more of a caste thing and that ... even done unconsciously ... keeping young people uneducated is a typical method of social and mind control. I mean ... what could most of those surrendered sisters they parachute in to run centers do apart from being BKs?

Do you mind saying which kind of therapy you found best and may be what your therapist makes of all this BK stuff? I still do not think we know the half of what goes on to children within the BKs ... especially when it splits families apart.

Thank you for your reply. I was worried that ermine's rant might frighten you off.

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Re: Having a partner, getting married & becoming a mum, dad etc

Post by enlightened » 06 Apr 2008

Hi ex-l

Thanks for your mail. No, Ermine did not frighten me off at all. I did not take much notice of some of the things people have said as i think i am wise enough to know what is useful for me from this forum. I think it is important for me to only take that which is constructive and beneficial for me from this forum and to give what is constructive and beneficial to others wherever possible.

I must say that as only one of my parents became involved heavily with the BK organisation, it did create many problems with my parents relationship as well as with other siblings. When I look back now and process everything that happened, there was definitely a negative impact on the immediate family as well as with the extended family. It obviously created conflict in that one parent was practicing complete detachment, not eating out, not eating at other relatives houses, not eating out, not socialising as much etc. This obviously has a very deep impact on all aspects of a family life. It also affected me in my studies, my socialising with friends and families, my decisions, my career, my development from being a child to adolescent and then to adult. My relationships within a working environment. You name it, i have been affected. I am still struggling in many areas but fortunately, God put a wonderful wonderful psychotherapist on my path. This has been a real blessing in disguise for me. It's magical. The thing about psychotherapy is that you must be committed no matter how traumatic or challenging it may be whilst you're taking the therapy. Many people cannot hack it and drop it half way. However, my advice would be just continue for as long as necessary. It really can do wonders!!

My therapist was quite shocked with some of the things I said about the Brahma Kumaris and its doctrine. They could not believe some of the things.

I have to say that Gestalt Psychotherapy can be extremely beneficial providing you can find a good therapist. Also, there's EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing) which is pretty good for dealing with traumas. Alongside these therapies, i have also been having homeopathy medicine, acupuncture and massage as well as colon cleanse. There is a very good cleanse which is Bentonite Clay and Psyllium husk which is supposed to reach the nooks and crannies of your colon where there may be some deep seated and unresolved emotions or traumas.

here are some websites which people may find useful.

http://www.emdr.com/q&a.htm
http://www.astrodreamadvisor.com/Body_B&P.html

Okay I hope this helps
Best wishes
Enlightened

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