What was that? ( ... Meeting in Madhuban with Bap-Dada)

for ex-Brahma Kumaris, to discuss matters related to their experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
double light
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What was that? ( ... Meeting in Madhuban with Bap-Dada)

Post by double light » 01 Jun 2007

I was replying another post and it came something up to my mind.

Have you been in Madhuban and met BapDada? Well, what or who do you think it was coming to those meetings, mediumistic sessions, or whatever you want to call it giving the Murli? If you have been there you know that there was some huge energy in that room ...

Me, myself, have no good answer for it. But one thing I know for sure, it wasn’t God ...

Do you have something to say about it?

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Post by sparkal » 02 Jun 2007

What experience would you equate with being in a hall with God since you are certain that that was NOT God? Is there a textbook expectation/experience that determines whether it is God or not?

I don't have an opinion as such and welcome debate on the matter/none matter. Just when you think you have found God, you find yourself searching again for confirmation. Illusive or what?

Should God arrive on a pegasus with his underpants on the outside of the trousers, cape flailing in the wind?

Is it all just Brahma Baba? That one is certainly there as the face of the instrument (Gulzar) changes to the face of Brahma at times. How would Shiva show Shiva? What face would Shiva use? Is that what miracles are about?

How would the most subtle being in the universe show their true face? :?: :idea:

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Re: What was that?

Post by joel » 02 Jun 2007

double_light wrote:Have you been in Madhuban and met BapDada? Well, what or who do you think it was coming to those meetings, mediumistic sessions, or whatever you want to call it giving the Murli? If you have been there you know that there was some huge energy in that room ... Me, myself, have no good answer for it. But one thing I know for sure, it wasn’t God ...
A spirit that believes itself to be God, perhaps.

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ex-BK forum

Post by double light » 03 Jun 2007

sparkal wrote:What experience would you equate with being in a hall with God since you are certain that that was NOT God? Is there a textbook expectation/experience that determines whether it is God or not?
I thought this part of the forum was for ex-BKs. That's why I was posting my question here. I know the BK answer but I would like to discuss it with other ex-BKs independently of what they believe in ... Thank you
joel wrote:A spirit that believes itself to be God, perhaps.
Yes, I agree with you Joel. My experiences of God before BK were actually stronger than the ones I got in meditation or in Madhuban. And that always puzzled me. Like I had lost a part of my connection with God ... I got it back now, after some years!

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Re: ex-BK forum

Post by joel » 04 Jun 2007

double_light wrote:Yes, I agree with you Joel. My experiences of God before BK were actually stronger than the ones I got in meditation or in Madhuban. And that always puzzled me. Like I had lost a part of my connection with God ... I got it back now, after some years!
Everyone gravitates to their own strongest richest experiences.

They would say that you are a lower soul (or later soul) who is satisfied with less, since you aren't into meeting God face to face. And you don't want a deep connection with Dadis and the Divine Family.

To give an example, Rajni was someone who grew up child of a BK mother. Attended her graduation in a white sari. She chose her life, considered her highest calling to be doing Baba's work in association with Dadis, whom she looks up to as models for her own life. "Joel-Bhai," she would tell me in a voice that could be sweet with a taste for life, "look at the beautiful life Dadi has created for herself!"

I never tried to talk to her about how I was changing.

We can only do what's best for ourselves, though it can be sad to lose the approval of hundreds of sets of eyes, if we had been depending on them. It is great to feel oneself so strong and clear that one doesn't need to look to them for support/validation.

If I believe they wouldn't approve of my life decisions, and I won't expect to look to them for validation of my passions in life, then why would I continue to stay with them? Will they accept me unconditionally? Probably not, I am not interested to explore that with them, given their history of allying themselves with a dogma that is wrapped around them like a sari and held in place with their own economic interests, coexisting with what can be a genuine service ethic.

I know that Maureen Chen and Rajni were both comfortable with asking someone to make a donation, and feeling that it is for God, not for themself.

That is also part of the Indian tradition of charity. To give and to not allow someone to give in return, since you have adopted the role as 'selfless saint' for the day, at least. There is a subtle pecking order of who gives yet does not accept in return. There is a totally sincere, positive face to it as well.

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contemplation in god's company

Post by alladin » 04 Jun 2007

Hi, I just also thought about my pre-Gyan meditation and relationship with God, and had a similar one last nite under the moon. Just silence and contemplating. No big thoughts about service, role now or status later. Just a child of God and in tune with nature, real simple.

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Post by arjun » 06 Jun 2007

joel wrote:That is also part of the Indian tradition of charity. To give and to not allow someone to give in return, since you have adopted the role as 'selfless saint' for the day, at least. There is a subtle pecking order of who gives yet does not accept in return. There is a totally sincere, positive face to it as well.
This is a correct observation. Many of those who donate (both to BKs and other religious groups) do it sincerely without expecting anything in return at least in this birth, but it is the receivers/takers who sometimes do not display the same sincerity while using the donation.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by pilatus » 06 Jun 2007

double_light wrote:Have you been in Madhuban and met BapDada? Well, what or who do you think it was coming to those meetings, mediumistic sessions, or whatever you want to call it giving the Murli? If you have been there you know that there was some huge energy in that room ... Me, myself, have no good answer for it. But one thing I know for sure, it wasn’t God ... Do you have something to say about it?
I've only met BapDada once. It was New Year 2003/04 with around 16,000 Raj Yoga'ing BKs. I'll never forget the huge wave of heat energy which hit me as I entered, so I agree with you on that. I've wrestled some time with understanding/reviewing the experience and have come to a similar conclusion to you - it wasn't (my) God but perhaps a very strong divine prescence.

I hadn't really been able to settle into Yoga but I very clearly experienced the energy of BapDada turning away from me and returning some time later with the message - "Oh! you're with Jesus Christ. If you're OK with Him, you're OK with us!"

This was around the time that another message came through that 100% of the participants had achieved the flying stage. At that point I saw for the first time the change in Dadi Gulzar (on screen) and felt myself lifted and swept away ...

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Post by bansy » 06 Jun 2007

Folks,

Is the meeting with BapDada a "soul-conscious" event or a "body-conscious" event? If you can see and feel and listen, then it is body-conscious, right ?

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Post by tinydot » 06 Jun 2007

pilatus wrote:At that point I saw for the first time the change in Dadi Gulzar (on screen) and felt myself lifted and swept away ...
Truthfully speaking I have never seen any changes in the bodily features. Even all the pictures of normal Gulzar and pictures of BapDada, to me, they all look like Gulzar's body. I think I am going to start compiling lots of Gulzar's picture and lots of BapDada's, shuffle them, and ask several kids to categorize the pictures into two groups based on Gulzar's appearance.

Is there something wrong with me? Or perhaps BKs are hallucinating, tired or conditioned to believe that there will be bodily changes in Gulzar when BapDada comes in.
bansy wrote:Is the meeting with BapDada a "soul conscious" event or a "body conscious" event ? If you can see and feel and listen, then it is body conscious, right ?
Bansy made a good point here. BKs make a big deal on bodily changes, in fact there is none that I think of. All changes you "see" are caused by your own subjective experience. Even staring at the face of any person for several minutes, you sure would find "something" changing in your own brain seeing different faces. Try it with your favorite SS during eye to eye meditation.

The only objective physiological changes in the body is when one goes into trance or meditation, and this partly affects the normal breathing, body's electrical resistance, some neurological circuitry, etc. And sure, you would look more relax and peaceful. That is all you can objectively observe.

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Post by mitra » 07 Jun 2007

bansy wrote:Is the meeting with BapDada a "soul conscious" event or a "body conscious" event ? If you can see and feel and listen, then it is body conscious, right ?
:) Yes but there is a difference. You are seeing with the feeling that I the Soul is Seeing through this eye. I the Soul is listening through this ear. You should have the consciousness that YOU are a SOUL and body is a instrument.

IBHS
mitra :wink:

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Post by paulkershaw » 07 Jun 2007

bansy wrote:Is the meeting with BapDada a "soul conscious" event or a "body conscious" event ? If you can see and feel and listen, then it is body conscious, right ?
I'd say that it's a 'soul conscious' event perhaps. I remember that I knew when 'BapDada' had arrived, even when I was at home here in JHB and not even near a centre and did not know that he was due. So for me its a 'soul' connection requiring a certain consciousness or awareness.

But as to the 'live' meetings in Madhuban, just look at all the jostling for seating position then body-consciousness certainly comes into it ...

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Post by jannisder » 07 Jun 2007

Go to a concert, in a big stadium, with about 50.000 people see what happens ... see what it is doing with you.

Madhuban? ... Same thing!!!! And has nothing to do with God or anything. Just an artist showing some tricks, if it is even that. And telling you stuff all learned by heart. Whatever else can you see when you hear and read Murli's for about a hundred years ... there is not anything else in your mind anymore ... is there?

Jan.

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Re: ex-BK forum

Post by sparkal » 08 Jun 2007

sparkal wrote:What experience would you equate with being in a hall with God since you are certain that that was NOT God? Is there a textbook expectation/experience that determines whether it is God or not?
double_light wrote:I thought this part of the forum was for ex-BKs. That's why I was posting my question here. I know the BK answer but I would like to discuss it with other ex-BKs independently of what they believe in ... Thank you.
Sparkal: I have been trying to change my "BK" label for months but cannot for reasons unknown to myself. I have tried many times. Am I being used in some way? Still, it could serve as a reminder to your "judge a book by its cover" attitude. I have not set foot in a BK centre for 1-2 years, what about yourself?

People need to waken up and open up.

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Post by double light » 08 Jun 2007

sparkal wrote:Sparkal: I have been trying to change my "BK" label for months but cannot for reasons unknown to myself. I have tried many times. Am I being used in some way? Still, it could serve as a reminder to your "judge a book by its cover" attitude. I have not set foot in a BK centre for 1-2 years, what about yourself? People need to waken up and open up.
I really apologize. It was rude from my part to just put things like that. But as it stood BK sounded like indoctrination what you wrote, that you're questioning the fact that I didn’t believe in all BK stuff any longer ... And though I think it's very good that everyone can share a forum like this I expect respect from the fact that this is an ex-BK support forum and I am not in the institution any longer.

I haven't step my foot in a BK centre for almost 6 years and I stepped out from there 7 years ago. Unfortunately I became very ill in consequence of all the guilt trip I had after leaving BK. You can search for my story in classical posts from the old forum if you want to know about it; Psychic Illness after Leaving the BKs. One of my conclusions is, if it does more damage than good to so many I don't think it's God himself. I actually had experiences of God much stronger than Madhuban before I met BK. So, in my opinion, and again, my personal opinion, No, it was not God.

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