Sex, Sexuality and Relationships within the BKWSU or PBKs

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mr green
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Post by mr green » 07 Dec 2006

I am a bit worried about you ex-l having such rich knowing of these texts :lol:.

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celtiggyan
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Sex

Post by celtiggyan » 17 Dec 2006

Shock-horror! Sex! Why the skating around an issue which is vital to the survival of the species. Of course Sex makes you body conscience and hence you are less aware of the Soul but why turn it into a mortal sin in both this and so many other religions? It's something we are born with and hard wired into us all - male and female.

C.

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mr green
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Post by mr green » 17 Dec 2006

I like it.

The skating around is because they all want to do it.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 18 Dec 2006

Mr Green wrote:The skating around is because they all want to do it.
So that's why folks go to the ice rink ... call me naive, I never realised. And there was me trying to perfect my figure of 8.

Sex is one thing, falling in love is another. I don't know this but my feeling is that the latter is more of a problem and requires to be more controlled. It is even more forbidden on the BK path for obvious reasons. The physical bit is hit and miss. It is done with anything from detachment to disgust, and of course violence, but taking it out just removes the opportunity for any such dangerous 'amour' between individuals to be cemented. Removing them both out of the picture frees up a huge amount of time and energy.

It is obvious that the Yagya could not have been built up if these two elements were still part of the picture, never mind the time and energy, and noise, that child rearing involves. I asked before, but discussion was not forthcoming, what the general sexual/emotional experience of Indian women was at that time the Yagya started up until it spread to the West in the 1970s? ( ... And, of course, the West spread to Indian). This has had to be a color on the attitudes within the Yagya under the present leadership.

The dominant pattern in India would have been for arranged marriages to virgin child-brides and not sex in the context of adult romantic dalliances. Romanticism seems to have been almost entirely channelled into the mythologies of Krishna and the Gopis that were then usurped by the presence of BB in the Om Mandali. India, having had a sensual, uninhibited past was gripped by the prudism of the English Victorian Rule. I only have questions from this point on but I'd stake my wad on the likes of Janki and the other SS being deeply in love with Lekhraj Kirpalani. And may be not even knowing it or being able to admit it.To them it was sanctioned "Yoga".
  • • Why else the bigger than lifesized trance lights and pictures everywhere?
Our Yoga and the Yagya has been colored by their sexual supression and emotional infatuation ever since ... how is that for controversial point of view to discuss?

Actually, I suport celibacy not just for spiritual and intellectual development (i.e. Brahmacharya as a student technique) but anyone that wants to get something done in this life. I wish it had been explained to me as a kid as a third option rather than the prudery versus permissiveness debate. Listening to the 'horrors of sex' stories put out by Lekhraj Kirpalani, Jagdish Chander and the SS, I am wondering if anyone in India has actually done it enjoyably rather than as a function and duty towards an emotional stranger within an arranged marriage and I am searchin for a man, or woman, with more experience than me in this area to enlighten me.

One thing for sure, celibacy is not optional within BK Raja Yoga. It is the "be all and end all" rule. The West does not have a right to tamper with tradition just to tickle its own fancy. And I respect that.

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Re: Sex

Post by john » 19 Dec 2006

celtiggyan wrote:Shock-horror! Sex! Why the skating around an issue which is vital to the survival of the species. Of course Sex makes you body conscience and hence you are less aware of the Soul but why turn it into a mortal sin in both this and so many other religions? It's something we are born with and hard wired into us all - male and female.
But is it only BKs/PBK Brahmins where the whole of the followers are taught to observe celibacy as opposed to Christianity where it is just the monks, nuns etc?

Would other religions really have to follow celibacy seeing as procreation in the Copper Age is sexual, therefore celibacy would serve no purpose. Maybe other religions are never celibate ...

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Re: Sex

Post by joel » 19 Dec 2006

celtiggyan wrote:Shock-horror! Sex! Why the skating around an issue which is vital to the survival of the species. Of course Sex makes you body conscience and hence you are less aware of the Soul but why turn it into a mortal sin in both this and so many other religions? It's something we are born with and hard wired into us all - male and female.
Who is skating around, Celtgyan? You did not specify. Please look into the XBKChat archives if you would like to learn more. Dive deep! Or have a look through the stuff we have up at http://xbkinfo.infogami.com. There is a sexion on sexuality, and the personal stories sexion contains many posts by myself and others addressing sexuality-related questions.

To summarize some of my own observations. I took BK teachings on faith. Everyone who had sex was destroying themselves. Then I started to collect counterexamples.
  • I met spiritual, mature people who are okay with their sexuality. I met spiritual, mature people who are okay with taking alcohol. And spiritual, mature people who eat non-vegetarian food. These people were not destroyed or corrupted, as far I could tell.
Are we hard-wired for sex? Not everyone. Some people are just not interested much.

The suppressing or shaming of sexuality (for example, by describing it as sinful) diverts people to get their jollies through prescribed channels: service among the BKs; work, shopping among the urban masses. Shaming adult love between people in a group like the BKs helps hold the followers in a child's mindset of emotional dependence on the senior teachers who are presented as God's instruments.

For myself, I enjoyed my 'failures' while struggling to be celibate, and enjoy my sexuality now. If my life is f****d up in some ways, those are deep existential (whatever that means) issues, that won't magically go away by stopping sexual activity or relationships.

Happy travels, skating and diving deep.

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Please "school" me!

Post by joel » 19 Dec 2006

ex-l wrote:Listening to the 'horrors of sex' stories put out by Dada Lekhraj, Jagdish Chander and the SS, I am wondering if anyone in India has actually done it enjoyably rather than as a function and duty towards an emotional stranger within an arranged marriage and I am searchin for a man, or woman, with more experience than me in this area to enlighten me.
What?! Just have a look at a Bollywood movie or six. Ask these questions:
  • * Do actor/actresses display sexual or erotic attitudes?
    * Might they have some of those attitudes in real life?
    * If they were free to act on their desires with directors or other actors/actresses, would they do so?
    * Do you think they had a good time?
Maybe I misread you. Perhaps you are just making a wry offer to have a lithe attractive woman in a dazzling silk sari "school" you. Not sure if you would want a man for this.

Regarding celibacy as a choice to free creative energy, if I were going to be celibate to devote myself to creative tasks, I would want the tasks to absorb my attention, rather than approaching in a negative way, jabbing my sexuality with knives of shame, disgust, self-hate, suppression, etc. in hopes of being creative. Having tried it myself, I don't think it works very well, or at all.

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Re: Please "school" me!

Post by fluffy bunny » 20 Dec 2006

joel wrote:* Do actor/actresses display sexual or erotic attitudes?
* Might they have some of those attitudes in real life?
* If they were free to act on their desires with directors or other actors/actresses, would they do so?
* Do you think they had a good time?
I honestly don't know. Baba said not to watch Bollywood movies because they will make you want to get married like he did (... He must have seen a really good one). Luckily, he did not forbid Bergman or Kurosawa.

First of all, despite a population of 1 Billion or whatever, I cannot work out where and when anyone in India finds any privacy in which to functionally procreate at all. Never mind engage any artistry into the proceedings. So my presumption is that sex life in India is on a par with amoebas.

Secondly, super-elite actors and actress are hardly representative of the majority of Indians.

Thirdly, those are just movies and just as Hollywood does not actually bear, or should that be bare, much relationship with reality in the West, I cannot see how Bollywood does to some arranged marriage in the villages where we are basically only 50 years away from roasting spinsters on the funeral pyre and still with arms reach of regular beatings or acid attacks. (I guess you know that the regular thing to do in India, if a girl does not fancy you, is throw acid in her face so no one else will her).

Some of that mock-Madonna hip thrusting stuff they do in their dances looks so harsh and mechanical that it leads me to suggest that it is merely theoretical.

To me it looks like there is sensuality on the surface but that the sexual it is all about suppression and religious projection, i.e. the gropes and gopis. Has there been a Indian Kinsey Report? Are the women not all meant to be virgin brides? I honestly know nothing about sexuality within India apart from; on one hand Bollywood and on the other hand medieval horror stories of child brides, rape and prostitution. The negative experience of most white girls in India suggests that the guys on the street are not getting any.

I appreciate modern technology is changing things, the young now have sex in internet cafe booths; and there is a middle class, so I dare say they have discovered wifeswapping and adultery ... but, honestly, what are the sexual attitudes of India and how can we not connect the BK missionary's position to them?

I am also not at all sure how you define "spiritual" Joel. Mature is easier. "Spiritual" all to often just means "nice" these days. But I agree that life throws up very difficult counter examples to BK lore ... the institutional response to which would be that number two put down after bhagats, that is they are merely "new souls" ( ... spit). If it does not fit into to the BK picture, then they must be new souls, burning their karma up just having their Golden Age in our Hellish Iron Age. Easy ...

• I absolutely agree on the "infantilization" of BK fllowers and the exploitation of infantile psychology by the Seniors. Grist for another topic of its own.

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Post by joel » 20 Dec 2006

ex-l wrote:I am wondering if anyone in India has actually done it enjoyably
I thought 'anyone' meant 'anyone'. From your followup it seems 'anyone' in your usage means anyone but actors, actresses and directors.
  • How do the husband and wife have sex when they share a two room house with four children?
    They must have been having it, otherwise where would the children come from?
    Does she cry out, or does he cry out in the midst of their passionate ecstasies?
Obviously there is a need for some social anthropology here.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 20 Dec 2006

joel wrote:I thought 'anyone' meant 'anyone'. From your followup it seems 'anyone' in your usage means anyone but actors, actresses and directors.
Well, at 30 Aishwarya Rai still has not had her first screen kiss, so we might see her in a white sari yet ( ... new soul ... new soul ... new soul ... ). But Bollywood does do a pretty good line in tabloid sex, drugs and temple-bound redemption off screen although no one has embraced the BK sisters yet to my knowledge. It still doesn't seem to translate to the villages for whom these stars live.

For the West, sex is so tied in with the modern romantic tradition now. How would you feel, how does one feel, tied into an arranged marriage?

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Post by fluffy bunny » 21 Dec 2006

ex-l wrote:Well, at 30 Aishwarya Rai still has not had her first screen kiss, so we might see her in a white sari yet...
Oooops ... how the mighty are fallen! Its the End of the Iron Age and everything and every one degrades so quickly ... in the service of accuracy;
The Hindu wrote:Obscenity case filed against Aishwarya Rai

A case has been filed against Bollywood stars Aishwarya Rai and Hrithik Roshan for an alleged obscene sequence in their recently released Dhoom 2 .

The case was filed in the court of judicial magistrate first class RK Batham in Indore by advocate Shailendra Dwivedi under Sections 292 (vulgarity) and 509 (derogatory to women) of the Indian Penal Code. The complainant alleged that women felt offended after watching the scene and it promoted vulgarity in society, especially among youth. The court has fixed December 11 for recording evidence in the case.

During her confession of her love for Aryan (Hrithik), Sunheri (Ash) gives in to her emotions and both, in a moment of intimacy, end up lip locking. The scene has been picturised aesthetically.

Ash has also set the pulses racing by wearing skimpy clothes in the movie. There were also reports last week that Amitabh, Jaya and Abhishek Bachchan were upset with Ash’s decision to smooch on screen after having said no in her English films and also didn’t approve of the short stuff Ash has worn at her age (33).
At least one can always rely on the Judiciary for upholding public morals and having a professional interest in the length of a young woman's skirt.

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Re: Sex

Post by mitra » 22 Dec 2006

celtiggyan wrote:Shock-horror! Sex! Why the skating around an issue which is vital to the survival of the species. Of course Sex makes you body conscience and hence you are less aware of the Soul but why turn it into a mortal sin in both this and so many other religions? It's something we are born with and hard wired into us all - male and female.
:) As per BK knowledge, Sex was there only for the last 2500 years! Before that in Silver Age and Golden Age, there was NO sex. So if you want to come to Golden Age, you must avoid SEX

IBHS
MITRA

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mr green
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Post by mr green » 22 Dec 2006

ex-l, the attitudes towards sexuality in the BKs come from the likes of Dadi Janko. People who come from another era. Almost a victorian approach. Jagdish would have been the same.

Sex in India happens on many levels. The untouchable caste (not my vision!) will be hammer and tonging with a lot less worry of social ettiquete, whereas the middle classes where arranged marriage is still important will be a lot more uptight and curtain twitching gossipy type repression. I have met younger Indian girls with very liberal approaches to sex and who have adopted a more western approach to relationships, times are moving on in India and people like Janki and her followers are just being left behind.

Even when sexual equality is concerned, the BKs are still practising positive discrimination against men in the western countries. OK, India still has a long way to go toward equality but this country has moved on in ways that the BKs don't even know about. The west has reached the point now where women are wanting men to be men again, where true equality could be acheived, but the BKs are years behind this.

I also disagree with the idea that sexuality or ejaculation reduces your energies or abilities ... suck it and see :lol:.

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Gender and sexuality

Post by john » 29 Dec 2006

Andrey wrote:God comes in India and speaks Hindi because Hindi is common language in India. He comes in India because of its speciality of valuing purity and unadultery which cannot be seen in any other country.
But not practising it; India police find child skeletons. Just trying to be balanced and informed.

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Post by andrey » 31 Dec 2006

Dear brother John,

I would very much like to bury the hatchet. What has this got to do with purity and unadultery - this link. You just liked to show that there is also the other point of view. OK.

That news doesn't bring eternal benefit to the soul. You know the news ... God has come. Is it only empty words. No, it is for real. This is the biggest news ever ...

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