Baba's Spoken Language

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celtiggyan
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Baba's Spoken Language

Post by celtiggyan » 23 Dec 2006

Why does Shiv-Baba always speak in Hindi? I heard he spoke the odd word of English but surely the supreme would know all languages? Is he restricted by the brain of the medium?

C.

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mr green
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Post by mr green » 23 Dec 2006

The theory you propose is the same line that the BKs take.

Some say the original brahma Murlis were in Sindi. I know for definite that the Murlis Dadi Prakashmani used to read in morning class were written in Sindi not Hindi.

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Post by joel » 24 Dec 2006

Mr Green wrote:Some say the original Brahma Murlis were in Sindi. I know for definite that the Murlis Dadi Prakashmani used to read in morning class were written in Sindi not Hindi.
I understood that the Being spoke in Hindi from the beginning; that the senior sisters had to learn Hindi to understand the discourses; that the Murlis Dadi read were Hindi language, but written in the Sindhi script to be easier for Dadi to read.

She doesn't (or did not) translate while reading, she was reading directly, as far as I could tell from my cumulative months at the ashram.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 24 Dec 2006

joel wrote:I understood that the Being spoke in Hindi from the beginning; that the senior Sisters had to learn Hindi to understand the discourses
... and the partyline was that it spoke a "very pure form" of Hindi, (whatever that meant).

Do you mean the written form of Sindhi in Devanagari script, rather than the original Arabic script, the spoken form of Hindi or both? Just to confuse matters further, some of the pictures of Lekhraj Kirpalani showed him reading/writing what I was told was Urdu. (But may be it was Sindhi after all?)

Interesting, because it introduces other layers of confusion. So, did Kirpalani speak all languages? Interesting, if one correlates it with the Seniors' inability to know when Shiva was present or not. Surely if they, the possessed Kirpalani and the possessor Shiva, spoke different languages it would be simple to know which one was speaking and not the other? Did it start speaking in one and then change to another?

Why would it or Kirpalani speak Hindi to a primarily or exclusively Sindhi community, especially when Sindhi was the more poetic, literary language beloved of writers and mystics like the Sufi before him? Why would "Shiva" not speak the language of the medium or was it pure, as in simple, because the latter's Hindi was not so good? It suggests it has its own language "fixed in Drama" and linguistic Sanskars unrelated to humanity.

More questions than answers and the usual mess.

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Post by john » 24 Dec 2006

Great thread.

What ex-l is saying is what just what I've been thinking in the past. I believe you have to be logical with a Sherlock Holmes style to get to those 'hang on a minute' moments because I am quite sure lots of BKs, through their sense of wonder of Shiva and Brahma in the early days, would not have applied much logic.

Quite a few 'hang on a minute' question I've asked in the PBK section have been answered evasively ... if I've been lucky! A lot come up with 'why are you bothering to ask that' or 'you're only thinking that because you're doing Bhakti' type of thing ... which, to be honest, I think is a shameful attitude.

Anyway back to the thread in question. I think the PBK brothers Arjun and Sivasena would be helpful in this thread as they have access to original pre-1969 Sakar Murlis. Other PBKs posting still seem to be in their 'Stage of Wonder' phase, so won't/cannot be as helpful. I am pretty sure Virendra Dev Dixit speaks Hindi and can also understand some English.

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Post by andrey » 29 Dec 2006

God comes in India and speaks Hindi because Hindi is common language in India. He comes in India because of its speciality of valuing purity and unadultery which cannot be seen in any other country.

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Post by bansy » 29 Dec 2006

I don't know if the following belongs to this thread, and maybe a new thread, but the above discussions brought out a thought. Just a thought :

According to the Murlis, Raja Yoga is more or less focused on Bharat (or India) with the world "in general" considered. Hence, the language of Hindi and the Murlis using the main current language of India. OK, that's me done with in this thread, it would seem. But is it so simple.

However, how can Christianity and Buddhism and Islam spread to so many parts of the world, whereas Hinduism is more or less in India. Was Hindusim "rejected" because it did not satisfy the people or did the people become impure that they couldn't hold onto Hinduism/Raja Yoga 2-3 thousands years ago. Or put it another way, if the prophets in no particular order of Abraham, Moses, Noah, Jesus, Mohammed were so-called-messengers of God, why were they not taught Raja Yoga then ? Surely God only has one study to teach, the most elevated study of all. Drama is odd.

I don't know the topography spread of religions in the world, so someone should correct me here. However to generalise in a nutshell, I would think most of Asia is Buddhist, much of the West and Americas is Christianity, and the Middle East is Islam. Which leaves very few Indian-based religions here and there. How come Hinduism itself has little coverage. Something to do with the Tree, the seed, trunk and leaves.

Anyway, this is one for the "history and geography" churning list.

BTW, any clue the religion for the first few folks going to be in the Moon Space Station ? :D

As I said, just a thought. Got to do my end of Years stuffs now. See you in 2007. Happy New Year.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 29 Dec 2006

Before I reply in full, can any native Hindi speaker comment on the language that "Shiva" speaks?

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Post by freefall » 29 Dec 2006

bansy wrote: However, how can Christianity and Buddhism and Islam spread to so many parts of the world, whereas Hinduism is more or less in India. Was Hindusim "rejected" because it did not satisfy the people or did the people become impure that they couldn't hold onto Hinduism/Raja Yoga 2-3 thousands years ago
There is a simpler explanation to it. Hinduism does not believe in conversion. You are born a Hindu. It is a closed group. You can go out of it, but cannot come in.
Before I reply in full, can any native Hindi speaker comment on the language that "Shiva" speaks?
Murlis are in Hindi, if that is what you want to know. However, it is not the Hindi that you find in classical literature. Murli's Hindi is slightly on the rustic side. It is what you use when talking to a person of modest education.

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Post by bansy » 01 Jan 2007

freefall wrote:There is a simpler explanation to it. Hinduism does not believe in conversion. You are born a Hindu. It is a closed group. You can go out of it, but cannot come in.
Could you clarify what you mean here?

It almost sounds as like "You are born a Brahmin", as the maxim goes, "Once a brahmin, always a brahmin".

Does that mean no-one can convert souls to become BKs/PBKs, and BKs/PBKs naturally become so, hence the term "long-lost-and-now-found children".

So if the BKs are saying that the root of the religion called Hinduism lies in Gyan and in Brahmins/Angels/Deities, then they are correct that all Hindus now currently living are souls whose original nature is Brahmin/Angels/Deities. And if you are currently a non-Hindu, you cannot become a true Brahmin.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 02 Jan 2007

Baba's clarification of Murli 5-6-8; tape 202
Virendra Dev Dixit wrote:Brahma did not know the true meaning of this Sanskrit word. Father makes you understand in Hindi only. Why Hindi? Brahma Baba's language was Sindhi not Hindi, he did not even know how to write in Hindi. One sister used to translate Sindi words into Hindi for him. If the original language of Brahma Baba was Sindhi why does Father now make you understand in Hindi? Because the original Chariot was of the beginning was Hindi speaking. As the beginning so the end. Even now at the end that chosen Chariot which will be revealed to the whole world as Hindi speaking. His language is Hindi. So Father makes us understand in Hindi. Whoever is of whatever religion they have their own language. In Bharat Hindi language is most common, it is very easy to understand Hindi. When Father comes and teaches easy Raja Yoga them he has to use the easy language Hindi language. Hindi is the easiest language of the world.
This is interesting and related. It contains some easily checkable facts. I mentioned Lekhraj Kirpalani writing in what I thought was Urdu, perhaps it was Arabic Sindhi. Did Lekhraj Kirpalani know how to write in Hindi and was his language Sindhi? How did he do business in Calcutta if he did not speak a local dialect or national language.

Thank you freefall for that very enlightening comment regarding the class of Hindi that "Shiva" spoke. I'll will come back to you on that later if you don't mind.

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Post by freefall » 02 Jan 2007

Could you clarify what you mean here?
If you look at Hindu scriptures, there is no concept of conversion. There are prescribed "shuddhi" rituals to re-convert someone who was born a Hindu but became a non-Hindu. However there are no such rituals that can convert a non-Hindu to Hindu fold. It was only in the twenteith century that some enterprising Hindu reformers and institutions came up with the idea of converting a non-Hindu to Hindu. There is no historical precedence to it in Hinduism. Even now if you go inside the interior of India and tell someone that you are a Hindu convert, people may not understand what you are talking.
Does that mean no-one can convert souls to become BKs/PBKs, and BKs/PBKs naturally become so, hence the term "long-lost-and-now-found children".
It is a cleverly constructed BK myth that BK's roots are in Hinduism. No doubt, they have hijacked Hindu vocabulary and used Hindu mythology. But it is only because its founders and high priests were not familiar with any other religion. Beyond this BK has no connection with the Hinduism.

Average Hindu takes five minutes to understand that BK's Rama, Shiva and Krishna are not his gods. Terms such as brahmin or madhuban or karma or Murli carry entirely different meanings in BK. BK's theories are as alien to a Hindu as they are to a Christian. They have as much to do with Hinduism as Church of Scientology with the regular church.

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Post by freefall » 03 Jan 2007

This is interesting and related. It contains some easily checkable facts. I mentioned Dada Lekhraj writing in what I thought was Urdu, perhaps it was Arabic Sindhi. Did Dada Lekhraj know how to write in Hindi and was his language Sindhi? How did he do business in Calcutta if he did not speak a local dialect or national language.
We have to understand the relationship among Hindi, Urdu and Sindhi to appreciate the full context.

Hindi and Urdu follow the same grammatical structure and there is significant overlap in vocabulary. Except for their scripts, there is not much of a difference between them. If you are talking to a Bengali (in Calcutta), he will not be able to differentiate at all between Urdu and Hindi.

Traditionally, Urdu was the language of Muslim rulers and also the usual medium of education. Script of Hindi (Devnagari) was largely confined to religious texts. Many people of that generation had their primary education in Urdu and found it comfortable to write in that script (modified Arabic). It was common even among university level students of Hindi to take their class notes in Urdu because they were proficient in that script.

However, Sindhi has a very different grammar. The complication is that Sindhi language does not have a script of its own. In Muslim majority areas (such as where BK originated), it was written in the script borrowed from Urdu and in Hindu dominated areas that of Hindi.

All the three languages have overlapping metaphors, symbols and mythology.

Now to sum it up, here is my hypothesis:

Being in Muslim majority area, Dada Lekhraj's primary education must have been in Urdu. Sindhi would be his mother tongue. That explains why many of his writings are in Urdu script; how he could conduct his business in Calcutta; and why his Hindi is not the standard classical Hindi.

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Post by bansy » 03 Jan 2007

Thanks, interesting stuff freefall, on both aspects of Hindi and Hindusim.

I was often told that non Hindus often found it easy to understand the BK Gyan because they need not confuse it with any similar usage names of Krishna, Ram, etc., that a devout Hindu would have. I actually had a loving Indian sister teaching me the basic knowledge. I've always been interested on how Indians of the current birth come into BK world and how they are accepted or are treated and even leave, because double foreigners always seem to get more attention, though Avaykt Murlis allow double foreigners the upper hand (the latter has been discussed in other threads elsewhere).

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Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Jan 2007

freefall wrote:It is a cleverly constructed BK myth that BK's roots are in Hinduism. No doubt, they have hijacked Hindu vocabulary and used Hindu mythology. But it is only because its founders and high priests were not familiar with any other religion. Beyond this BK has no connection with the Hinduism.

Average Hindu takes five minutes to understand that BK's Rama, Shiva and Krishna are not his gods. Terms such as Brahmin or Madhuban or karma or Murli carry entirely different meanings in BK. BK's theories are as alien to a Hindu as they are to a Christian. They have as much to do with Hinduism as Church of Scientology with the regular church.
Thank you very much too. What the beatings BKs have been lashing out onto the PBKs, they are starting to look like the Scientologists of Hinduism.

You make a very valid point. Not only were the majority of the Yagya, the first 300, women and children, Bap-Dada went a very far way at cutting them off from any cultural, familial, religious, yogic and traditional influences and knowledge of practises; "no Bhakti ... no gurus ... sanyasis are ignorant ... do not visit temples ..." etc. It strikes me the focus of his intentions was on establishing the mediumistic/channelling element. They were to be fairly empty ciphers through which he could work.

Most of the so-called "Shiva's" knowledge was to "de-Hinduize" and surplant his practise and interpretations into the minds of Hindus.

In a strange way, it is a counter movement from the Western BKs that have brought back in world religions, and Hindu activities, from a marketing point, e.g. using holy quotes from learned authors - and the utter dishonest lie, perpetrated by the Brian Bacon and Mike Georges of this world, of selling BK Raja Yoga as "Ancient". This is in the context of an operation that has establish charities inthe west to, quote-unquote "promote Hinduism" and so I do not entirely blame the individuals above but their Seniors although they should know better. For some reason, in marketing man speak, "ancient" is something that adds value to a new product.

Forme, it is another typical example of the shadowy ambiguities that they consistently court although to them, they are the real root of Hindus and the Hindus a degraded version of them. I think the root of this, bringing cultural references and replicating a re-written form of rituals and cultural event, was out of large hunger within individuals for any alternative form of expression rather than just sitting down meditating. That the sisters did not really bring out of India any other express but just sitting, i.e., they adopted rituals like tying rakhi in a kind of simplistic, symbolic and slightly embarrassed way, I think it was Westerners that brought in candling lightling too which they fell upon. And now these have been cannonized as BK rituals.

I'd like to come back to ask you more about the spoken language of the Murlis, as there is that really weird line where Shiva Baba says that "the language of the Golden Age was Hindi" and not Sanskrit or some other root. And what is your take on what is actually happening when the Murlis are spoken? Is it just Dada Lekhraj or is there a spook of some sort there, where Supreme or not?

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