The Cycle of Time.

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celtiggyan
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Post by celtiggyan » 30 May 2006

We cannot use Science on teh one hand to prove a point and with the otehr hand disregard all of its findings. I heard about the resolution of carbon dating and it is true that if we date something new that it comes out at thousands of years old. However, for older dating the method becomes more accurate. We can imaging dating something to 2 million years +/- 2 thousand years and this is not bad accuracy! (0.1% in fact)
As for Quantum theory this may be a way out in that there may be multiple universes within our own. The theory goes that at the Quantum level it may well be true but nobody has managed to prove this at the macro level - yet.
However, it doe introduce more problems - there woudl have to be multiple copies of ourselves and our Souls in these other Universes.


G.

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Post by jamesy » 04 Jun 2006

Hi All,

Good to see the chat arising from the ashes ...
Thanks it was. As a few folks pointed out, the rest of the site associated with the above link may be B.K. in origin, but seem to overlook that the link itself is concerned with a book called 'Shattering the myths of Darwinism' by a Roger Milton. I've read much of it now, and would recommend it to anyone but esp xbks who feel somehow obliged to acknowledge Darwinism to be the 'truth behind it all' simply by popular default.

I don't think Milton has any BK connection or is affiliated with any other religious group, seems more like a hack who's smelt an 'Emperor's new Clothes' scenario within the scientific community and felt up for an expose. I think he's done a good job.

When I was at Uni labouring my way thro' an Electronics course, we used to have to study a bit of quantum mechanics which describes the physics of semiconductor behaviour. Always remember the physicists never passing up an opportunity to remind us engineering dullards that the nature of reality under the electron microscope appeared in almost complete contradiction to the Newtonian Mechanics that sparked the Industrial revolution.

I mention this because prior to the discovery of Quantum mechanics, Newton's Laws had been so experimentally verifiable under all known conditions and so spectacularly successful in technological application that the principles were accepted as absolute truths. But the arrival of Quantum Mechanics and the electronics technology that it gave rise to, finally put paid to the notion of certainty in Physics.

Not so with the Evolutionary biology crew. Those guys are so sure they've got it dead right that any dissent on the subject is treated with derision and accusations of religious nutterism. And right now as it happens seems there's a bit of a war going on in the States between the Creationists and the Evolutionists. The way it's shaping up as with most wars you're either for one or the other, which is a bit of a shame, because many on the liberal left almost instinctively see the Creationists as deeply conservative fundamentalists so almost by default feel they have to side with the 'voice of reason'.

Trouble is to me neither smack particularly of the 'voice of reason' and Milton has more than confirmed my gut instinct. But like many folk prior to reading his book I had been sort indoctrinated from as far back as secondary school, into believing that the evolutionary process had been verified in the lab at least with simple organisms such as plants. According to Milton not so, have a look at his website http://www.alternativescience.com/speciation.htm and make up your own mind.

So far then and in complete contrast with the stunning success obtained from the application of Newtonian and Quantum Mechanics, Biologists have yet to even once replicate the principles of Evolutionary theory.
Well, if they cannot reproduce live evidence, then next best must surely be dead evidence? Trouble is even the dead evidence is so scarce and what there is of that is so contentious, that one cannot help but feel even further scepticism comin on.

Below is a link to the tiny rickle of remains that the pro Darwinist website TalkOrigins has produced as the evidence for the existence of transitionary species from ape to human. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/sp ... l#archaics

Despite the claims of the pro-Evolutionists, Milton has been able to find documented scientific sources that have closely examined each of these fossils and classified as either not deviating significantly from the modern ape or alternatively the modern human species.

There's a debate between Milton and one of the Talk Origins supporters (Jim Foley) at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/milton.html that illustrates this well. It's a massive rant centred around the authenticity or otherwise of a couple of famous 'missing links', which Foley more than reckons he's had the last word on. But essentially what they're going head to head on is who has the most supporters, because Milton's sources though fewer in number are just as scientifically credible. To my mind it just once again highlights how tenuous the evolutionists 'evidence' really is. Let me remind folks that solid science is about arriving at a hypothesis and then being able to continually and reliably reproduce unequivocal evidence in support of it. This is the way physics has always proceeded and why 300 years after Newton it's sometimes apparently contradictory theories still provide the bedrock of our technology. It seems obvious to me that natural selection and random mutation, the two agents of the evolutionary process should have thrown up literally countless weird and wonderful apeman fossils in supporting evidence. The argument that we still haven't found them after 150 years of searching is maybe still just about swallowable. But why the numerous litters of perfect Dinosaur and other more recent prehistoric remains that keep turning up ... and why almost always the same old favourites?

The argument for Evolution postulates that we all evolved from simple single cell organisms, into the complex variety of organic matter we have today. Milton's take is that the evidence both fossil and from modern day zoology and botany, is that far from multiplying, species are becoming fewer with the passing of time. More common sense, once again I just cannot help agreeing with everything he says ... could this be the start of the cult of Milton?

Apologies if this has dragged on, but evolution related issues cropped up on many a thread on xbkchat and looks like it's to continue here. So clearly it irks a considerable number. If you're still yet a bit irked, I would definitely re-commend giving Milton a shot. Thanks to Celtic Gyan for the link.

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PBK view on 5,000 year Cycle?

Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Jul 2006

OK.

The big BKWSU issue is that the World only exits in the form of a 5,000 year, identical, ever repeating Cycle. No explanation of how this could be, no explanation of how dinosaurs fit in, no explanation of how all the space junk returns to earth, or the flag comes down off the Moon, no explanation of where the Pyramids fit in or how all the pollution can be fixed in less than 30 years etc.

So, what is the PBK view on the 5,000 year identically repeating Cycle?

Many BKs have a hard time with this and consider alternatives, such as that the Cycle only applies to human beings; coming down, going along, going up and then coming down again but in the past - with time continuing onwards for the rest.

Most of PBK knowledge is metaphorical or allegorical. Is the 5,000 year Cycle taken literally? Why? Why 5,000 instead of 4,793 or 5,168 or 50 Million? Does 5,000 have some symbolic meaning - or has 'God" given up on that idea and moved on?

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Post by aimée » 06 Jul 2006

The cycle for me cannot last millions of years, like it is said to be in Bhakti marg. According to the Bhakti, we are just at the beginning of Kaliyug and we are supposed to have around 40000 years of it, not a very appealing perspective for me.
It is too long for the population of the planet not to reach an impossible number, for the planet not to be too degraded. 5000 seems just practical, to have a cycle of 84 births, divided in equal 1250 years parts, and for us to have a good time and not suffer too much at the end. I think it is now pretty bad, bad enough for a good cleaning. Don't you?

If it repeats identically, then there is no evolution, but entropy and renewing and entropy etc. for eternity. If there is the slightest change, then there is an evolution, and it cannot be eternal any more.

The dinausors could have existed only for a few decennies, during the nuclear madness when destruction takes place, they are some sort of nuclear radiations produced monsters.
pyramids and all this impressive man made constructions, they are probably from Copper Age, where the athmosphere is still very pure, and stone and matter very light. People are still very elevated I suppose, and capable of using their intellect in a way we don't have any idea of, given that we apparently use around 10% only of our brain!

That is just the way I see things.

About the rubbish thrown in the sky from humans, I have no idea about it, this is a mystery for me. If anyone has an suggestion I would like to know!

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Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Jul 2006

Aimée wrote:It is too long for the population of the planet not to reach an impossible number, for the planet not to be too degraded. 5000 seems just practical, to have a cycle of 84 births, divided in equal 1250 years parts, and for us to have a good time and not suffer too much at the end. I think it is now pretty bad, bad enough for a good cleaning. Don't you?
We also have to look back. 5,000 years would not allow for the biological diversity that exists, the formation of the material elements planet. There has never been any explanation of how the Golden Age environment would be re-established [ ... and let's face it, we are running pretty short on time to build all that wonderful science we have been promised ].

There may be a mystical answer as to how. Why has it nor been given or has it been given via the PBKs?

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Post by arjun » 06 Jul 2006

Dear ex-l,
Om Shanti.
So, what is the PBK view on the 5,000 year identically repeating Cycle?
As regards the 5000 years cycle, the PBKs do believe in it in the same way as the BKs. But the only difference or advancement in the knowledge about the 5000 years cycle is that the rehearsal for the cycle takes place in the Confluence Age in a subtle way.

There has never been any explanation of how the Golden Age environment would be re-established [ ... and let's face it, we are running pretty short on time to build all that wonderful science we have been promised ]. There may be a mystical answer as to how. Why has it nor been given or has it been given via the PBKs?
I think the PBK view about the Golden Age has been explained quite a number of times in the xbkchat forum. Anyways, if you have missed out, I would like to repeat that as per the advance knowledge being given to us by ShivBaba presently, the BK theory about the Utopian Golden Age is not true but only symbolic. The Golden Palaces, Planes, Ornaments etc. would not exist in the Golden Age as described in the Murlis. Instead, mother nature would provide every kind of facility required for a 100% peaceful, pure and comfortable deity life. The details of the divine life and how this divine world would come about on this Earth is explained in detail in the Advance Course chapter on Lakshmi-Narayan. If you want further details, we can provide some more information.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by pbktrinityshiva » 10 Jul 2006

To me logically, if we look at the universe at both Macroscopic and Microscopic levels, cycles can be found everywhere whether its the vastness of space or inner workings of a bacteria . So I find it hard to beleive that time would be any different not to mention balanced in the same way.

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Post by pbktrinityshiva » 10 Jul 2006

ex-l wrote: 5,000 years would not allow for the biological diversity that exists, the formation of the material elements planet.
According to who? I think things have happened at a far greater rate through history than we assume. I think its the great illusion of this end time that we think that processes take millions of years, they can happen very quickly and have in the past. The sheer magnitude of those changes would have us beleive it must have taken millions of years..

In regards to Biological diversity the animal souls have their own family trees so a 4 legged dinosaur of yesterday could be another 4 legged creature of today. I do not find it mind boggling if one thinks of the increased state of purity and soul energy of creatures in the past. Which is documented in the folklore and myths of the worlds cultures.
ex-l wrote: There has never been any explanation of how the Golden Age environment would be re-established [ ... and let's face it, we are running pretty short on time to build all that wonderful science we have been promised ].
The Golden Age environment will be reestablished when the matter returns to its pure state which will happen after the souls are purified including mother nature of course.

Om Shanti :)

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Post by fluffy bunny » 10 Jul 2006

pbktrinityshiva wrote: The Golden Age environment will be reestablished when the matter returns to its pure state which will happen after the souls are purified including mother nature of course.

Om Shanti :)
Yup, "Om Shanti" meaning, let me stop thinking there and go back to my trance ...

How?

You know, what I keep pressing on here, and am a bit disappointed not to hear in return, is that there must be a more profound, complete, mystical answer. And it is the lack of it that increases my doubt - not the actual proposed theory.

Now, on the basic level of reality, you just cannot have ordered and delivered a fully complete Golden Age ecology within ... how many years it is? 30 to go ... how many until total annihilation? So that leave, may be, 20 years to clean up all the corpses, radioactive waste and rebuild an ecological heaven on earth of golden baubled palaces and vimana.

Its not going to happen even if the elephants are able of procreating through the power of Yoga too ... ! And then there is all the space junk, satellits and bits of rockets to deal with, how is headed out fo Jupiter to get it all back into the earth?

So there must be another reality and I am waiting to see it.

Either the Cycle and Destruction are allegorical or metaphorical of experience within the BK family rather than the outside world. Or else, in my opinion, the way in which the Cycle is portrayed has to be as ridiculous and simplistic as, " God being the shape of a thumb ". That is, fitting in with what the PBKs contended, that Brahma Baba [ Lekhraj Kirpalani ] was not very smart and the knowledge was watered down for the child like intellects of the original 'Om Mandali' or mistakenly interpreted.

Given that the 5,000 year Cycle is so central and unique to BK/PBK religion, we need answers or the whole caboodle is all discredited. It seems to me that either BK/PBKs have no idea - they are simple village folk for whom 5,000 or 50 Million years are equal and have no meaning - or, quietly, the educated ones sustain their faith in the rest of Gyan through inventing other possible Cycle scenarios in their mind. It is as if faith in the Cycle is the "gotcha" clause that determines whether you are in - and gambling your life at the table - or out.

For me, I invented other scenarios until I finally gave up waiting for the Senior Sisters to deliver. They don't. They just continue to repeat the same infantile platitudes because it works for them.

The only way I can see the Cycle working is if the Destruction/Creation moment is total on a universal scale. That is to say it is not just the western world going pop and sinking, and India having 'rivers of blood' street riots ; it has to be a total dissolution of the material Universe. Another Big Bang and turning within of the entire cosmos.

More than just the entire cosmos, all of matter would have to be reduced to its primal dissolved state - and into that, consciousness would then enter to form and reshape it as a reflection of its new purified state. Only such a deep and profound explanation would account for the remaking of the planet Earth, the return of the flags from off the moon, the satellites from Jupiter etc. Literally, the material cosmos would have to be returned to its unformed form. [Or else it does not exist anyway - and we are all just little light bulbs sitting in a row dreaming this.]

I think it was Howiemac on this or xBKChat forum that proposed the Golden Age was more like a light show or projection, that bodies and existence were more 'fairy' like [ my words not his ] and matter was less dense. Hence no fossil record or relics. This would have to be the closest that I could imagine.

But, on the otherhand, I would be much more happy if ShivBaba just turned around and said, "Look, BB got it all wrong ... I was talking allegorically about things within the Brahmin family and he was freaked out by a few visions that he could not understand ... 5,000 has a spiritual meaning which is ... I had to tell you something to stop you asking questions and so that was the first number I found in BB head. " etc.

In Taoism, 10,000 things means 'everything' because 10,000 was considered to be the biggest reasonable number. When they Taoist talk of 10,000 things, they do not mean 10,000 things, they mean 'everything'... what ever that is.

Just out of interest, how does a little dot living in Paramdam who has never incarnated - never mind owned a wrist watch, KNOW what one year is - never mind count up for 5,000 solar cylces. [ and why time measured by our little Sun? Are we so sure that we are the centre of all these galaxies? May be it is 5,000 of some other cosmic cycle ].

There is a dangerous fixation with numbers in the India psyche and it reflects into their religions [ just look at the mental plugs used in Hinduismand Buddhism based on 'exact' knowledge of them ]. It gives them a tendency to be good at mathematics and science but limits thought down to the "how many angels can dance on the head of pin?" type argument the Christian church threw out a few hundred years ago to focus on morals, principles and Newtonian science.

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Post by pbktrinityshiva » 10 Jul 2006

ex-l wrote:More than just the entire cosmos, all of matter would have to be reduced to its primal dissolved state - and into that, consciousness would then enter to form and reshape it as a reflection of its new purified state. Only such a deep and profound explanation would account for the remaking of the planet Earth, the return of the flags from off the moon, the satellites from Jupiter etc. Literally, the material cosmos would have to be returned to its unformed form. [Or else it does not exist anyway - and we are all just little light bulbs sitting in a row dreaming this.]
You make an excellent point on this actually :) I have wondered about that before.
ex-l wrote: Taoism, 10,000 things means 'everything' because 10,000 was considered to be the biggest reasonable number. When they Taoist talk of 10,000 things, they do not mean 10,000 things, they mean 'everything'... what ever that is.
5000 cycle is such a crucial part of the knowledge, I do not think it was delivered in a metaphorical way like that.. its literally 5000 years, exactly.
ex-l wrote: Now, on the basic level of reality, you just cannot have ordered and delivered a fully complete Golden Age ecology within ... how many years it is? 30 to go ... how many until total annihilation? So that leave, may be, 20 years to clean up all the corpses, radioactive waste and rebuild an ecological heaven on earth of golden baubled palaces and vimana.
Gods power being unlimited cannot be underestimated. If humans are going to be automatically transformed from humans into perfect dieities its logical to think that matter will follow them in its transformation. I mean what is a basic level of reality? Why cannot a fully complete and ordered ecology not be ready within 30 years with an unlimited power source/intelligence?

I do get your point tho.. yes we do not have a full explanation of how it all works..in the nitty gritty detail.. but if you beleive and have the experience of Shiva in front of you..and you also accept him as your Father, it tends to sideline the need for those answers to be comprehensively answered to the nth degree. For me if matter being purified and transforming doesnt need all that much explanation.
ex-l wrote: Just out of interest, how does a little dot living in Paramdam who has never incarnated - never mind owned a wrist watch, KNOW what one year is - never mind count up for 5,000 solar cylces. [ and why time measured by our little Sun? Are we so sure that we are the centre of all these galaxies? May be it is 5,000 of some other cosmic cycle ].
Well God is all knowledgable right and always truthful, East or West that is a property attributed to him. How can he deceive or lie?

Trust me, Its not that i wouldn't love the explanation its just that I think ShivBaba knows whats is needed to transform us souls.. Perhaps what you refer to as mental plugs are actually benificial in that the knowledge will eventually be revealed but at this point we need to focus on the task at hand which will cause benifit to us. I'll post again soon on your other points cus i've only skipped through..Om Shanti

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Post by fluffy bunny » 10 Jul 2006

pbktrinityshiva wrote: You make an excellent point on this actually :) I have wondered about that before.

<snip>

5000 cycle is such a crucial part of the knowledge, I do not think it was delivered in a metaphorical way like that.. its literally 5000 years, exactly.

<snip>

Gods power being unlimited cannot be underestimated. If humans are going to be automatically transformed from humans into perfect dieities its logical to think that matter will follow them in its transformation. I mean what is a basic level of reality? Why cannot a fully complete and ordered ecology not be ready within 30 years with an unlimited power source/intelligence?

I do get your point tho.. yes we do not have a full explanation of how it all works..in the nitty gritty detail.. but if you beleive and have the experience of Shiva in front of you..and you also accept him as your Father, it tends to sideline the need for those answers to be comprehensively answered to the nth degree. For me if matter being purified and transforming doesnt need all that much explanation.

<snip>

Well God is all knowledgable right and always truthful, East or West that is a property attributed to him. How can he deceive or lie?

Trust me, Its not that i wouldn't love the explanation its just that I think ShivBaba knows whats is needed to transform us souls.. Perhaps what you refer to as mental plugs are actually benificial in that the knowledge will eventually be revealed but at this point we need to focus on the task at hand which will cause benifit to us. I'll post again soon on your other points cus i've only skipped through.
Firstly, thank you.

Secondly, you may be one of the first few honest BK/PBKs I have met to admit up that you do not know and would like to.

I am not against mental plugs. I think human beings use them and need them all the time or else our heart or brains would explode with all the pressure we experience.

I guess the problem I have with this and most gods [ lower case ] is that it is all " be a good boy and you will get jam tomorrow ". The gods [ lower case ] have been promising up jam tomorrow for 2 or 3,000 years.

Now, OK, Yoga experiences - for those that have them - are a good lick of the outside of the jam jar. But not evidence - or "proofs" as PBKs call them for the Cycle or Golden Age.

It seems the suspension of disbelief is the price one has to pay for good Yoga with Shiva. And if one will suspend one's belief over this, and make a sanskar of doing so, what else will one suspend one's belief over?

Why 5,000 years exactly. Why not 4987 years, 350 days, 56 seconds or 5,013 years, 245 days, 32 seconds? What innature operates in such perfect cosmic rhythms?

Nothing. We live in a very wobbly, pulsing, Universe.

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Post by aimée » 10 Jul 2006

Why wouldn't our story be perfect? 5000 years is a round, nice number, enough to have a good time, not too much because anyway the planet wouldn't bare more.

For me, I see it with the help of quantum physics. At the level of the atoms, they change according to the expectation of the observer. It is a science that is, whether used by people who have not decided to see its implications, or it has changed some of its researchers into spiritual beings, because it is proving the importance of our influence on matter, and that maybe the only one possiblility to sustain all that is the existence of a powerful being, maybe like God. Sometimes God says (in anyone of the two chariots I think) that he is also bound to the drama, drama is higher than him. This may be a key to understand all of this.

Drama cannot change a millimeter, and we have our part recorded in us, the souls, like in a memory chip. When it is the moment for Shiv to return, he just comes according to his part. As a soul in the Soul World, he has no part.

Because our minds at the moment are churning rubbish, we create havoc in the world. When the world will be wiped out from all negativity, everyone being then in peace, it will be very easy to clean the entire place from all what is not supposed to be here, the impurity, like the remains of our civilisation, even in space. It is extremely difficult for us to step out of our understanding of the time like a time line, from the past to the future. Even Einstein, who did not like this idea of Quantum Physics, after researching for a while, had to come out with the idea of Relativity. In Hindi, "kal" means yesterday and tomorrow. This is very puzzling for us, and show another way of seeing things.

In Quantum Physics, they study particules, that travel in time and space, without caring at all about our laws, they disappear, pop up back in the past or the future, are in one space and in another extreme, within a delay that defies any logic. This is really fascinating. So, in this case, knowing that now we use so little of our brains, and that we have such an influence over matter, everything is possible. We have to totally explode the frames of our normal thinking. I have no idea of how that works, but for me the exploration of the possibilities is extraordinary.

Baba (in Virendra Dev Dixit) says we are supposed to understand, not only that we are souls, but what type of souls we are, which roles we have played in our numerous births, when we get the full picture, then we will be able to attain a thoughtless stage...I just can imagine our mind opening wide, in such a way that we get total clarity, and no question remain unanswered...

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Post by pbktrinityshiva » 11 Jul 2006

I agree, I think the answers will come when our stage improves.. and we become stable in that stage of soul conciousness. You can go into the expansion about every single facet of the universe trying to understand all the parts.. but really 1 question answered is going to give rise to 10 new questions which will give rise to another 20 questions. Even if we got the right answer now, would we accept it given our weak state of intellect? Not necessarily. There would be no benifit. ShivBaba is supreme surgeon, he is Benefactor always.. he never causes even the slightest harm.. So would spending his time explaning the vastness of the universe be benificial? It would be a waste of time if thats not what is going to keep us on track and solve the problem.

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"5,000 year" figure is purely symbolic!!

Post by jim brady » 23 Jul 2006

Does anyone on this site recall ever hearing from the BKWSU that the 5,000 figure is purely symbolic and not to be taken literally? I suspect that a lot of the current BK’s are abandoning the numbers game which as the years go by is becoming increasingly bizarre;
  • the 8,
    108,
    16108,
    330 million,
    5.5 billion,
    900,000,
    84,
    100 (Confluence Age) etc
Maybe this is what is getting re-written out of the Murlis? Once you take the numbers out of Raja Yoga it looks a lot stronger.

I personally never recall from the early 1980's any ambiguity with regard to the 5,000 figure, it was taken as exact - give or take a few years

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Re: "5,000" figure is purely symbolic!!

Post by fluffy bunny » 23 Jul 2006

jim brady wrote:Does anyone on this site recall ever hearing from the BKWSU that the 5,000 figure is purely symbolic and not to be taken literally?
Never, ever, never ... not at all!

It was all set in stone, rock solid, as inarguable FACTS to be learned by rote and taught. Interestingly enough, I was asking the PBKs the same question because I thought it had to be symbolic but their answer was no. 5,000 years equals exactly 5,000 years to the second - though no explanation of how or why.

I agree that the BKs have a lot to gain by whitewashing over these, that their tendency has been to water 'The Knowledge' down to make it more palatable, and I would have to question the ethics of building an empire on one set of rules and then once established, changing it to another. But would I expect it ... sure! Indeed, another poster on this forum suggested that Sister Jayanti was already hinting at just this and that it was a sign of things to come. Let's face it, there are only so many times you can cry wolf over telling folk the End of the World is about to come.

The strange thing is, even if they did drop the numbers and became utterly vague about cyclic time, I think that the same number and type of folk would still joined them. May be a few more Westerners would stick it. Could I expect them to extricate it from the public face of the BKWSU ... the websites and media are already being re-written. Another poster mentioned that a high level meeting was taking place to discuss BK service on the web. Perhaps all that stuff will become the arcane mysticism of interest and accessed by only a few and that the general body of BK will just become "Reformed" in the same as Reform Judaism difference from the Orthodox. The PBKs being the Orthodox BKs.

To make it nothing less than a corporate PR job, it would require a personal statement, and apology, on behalf of "God Shiva" as to what it was all about and why he perpetuated such thoughts.

Soon, despite all their criticisms of us, we will become like some Old Guard, the last place left faithful to the true Knowledge.

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