COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

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sita
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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by sita » 12 Sep 2015

Can you quote the Murli point? I have heard the Murli point- "You may tell others that even you are Brahmakumaris or Brahmakumaris (all are children of Brahma), but you do not know it"

I have not heard any Murli point saying- all will become children of Brahma.

So- do you believe that, all the souls will become braahmins, and hence will come to heaven as well?
No, I don't have this point. It was something like all will become children of Brahma or all will become Brahma Kumars and Kumaris.

I don't believe all souls will come to heaven, but all souls will witness the heaven of the Confluence Age.
Both the malas are of couples. The first (Rudrmala) is of student/effort-making life (so physically they do not appear as couples, since they cannot identify their soul-mate until the very end), the second (Vishnumala) is of 'praapti' or perfection-in-life or achievement, where they really marry each other practically in Heaven.
No, the rosary of brahmins is not of couples. Even Brahma and Mama are not a couple, but Father and daughter, brahmins also are not couples among themselves, but brothers and sisters.

Yes, I believe rudramala is of single beads. Vijaymala is of 108. If rudramala will be added to vijaymala the number will remain the same, just that they will be dual-beads, couple-beads.

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by mbbhat » 12 Sep 2015

No, the rosary of Brahmins is not of couples. Even Brahma and Mama are not a couple, but Father and daughter, Brahmins also are not couples among themselves, but Brothers and Sisters.
Agreed. And, also explained. They are like an INCOGNITO couple, behind the 'screen' of body-consciousness, during the effort-making stage. The role/effort of harmonizing the sanskaars or sanskaar milan is done during braahmin life. So, at the end stage, when actual realization occurs, braahmins understand and KNOW that they are couples (have done sanskaar milan).

You may still disagree. It is OK. But, the above explanation fits very well logically.
Yes, I believe rudramala is of single beads. Vijaymala is of 108. If rudramala will be added to vijaymala the number will remain the same, just that they will be dual-beads, couple-beads.
No Murli point says beads of rudrmala get added to vijaymala as you claim. But, you may have your views.

BTW- do you believe Rudrmala is of 5 or 7 billion and Vijaymala is of just 108? How, when, and who all get added to Vijayamala?

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by sita » 12 Sep 2015

Yes, I believe rudramala is of all souls, but it becomes ready when the Father is revealed. There are variety of souls in it. Baba establishes the suryavanshi and the chandravanshi dynasties. When these combine, it becomes the vijaymala. They combine when they become civil-eyesed. Yes, it must be more than 108, but these are like sample, like the most elevated. Baba teaches Raja Yoga, so whoever achieves royal status is like real student, but the subjects are also like kings.

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by mbbhat » 13 Sep 2015

Yes, I believe rudramala is of all souls, but it becomes ready when the Father is revealed. There are variety of souls in it. Baba establishes the suryavanshi and the chandravanshi dynasties. When these combine, it becomes the vijaymala. They combine when they become civil-eyesed. Yes, it must be more than 108, but these are like sample, like the most elevated. Baba teaches Raja Yoga, so whoever achieves royal status is like real student, but the subjects are also like kings.
You said- beads of Rudrmala get added into Vijayamala. Baba says first it will be Rudrmala, then Vijaymala. I had already explained Rudrmala is the time at the end of Kalpa, before returning to Paramdham, when the results are declared or Father is revealed. And- Vijayamala will begin only in the next Kalpa when deity souls descend and get birth.

Cannot you just say- when the Vijayamala gets formed? Is it before returning to Paramdham, or after? Do both Rudrmala and Vijayamala get formed together when Father gets revealed?

And- if Viajaymala is more than 108, how much it can be? One lakh, 2 lakh, 2 crore, 33 crore.... 5/7 billion? When a person explains something, he should explain at least 50%. Else, it is of no use, is it not?

In many cases, your reply is vague. You do not answer to the point. You do not even explain your own views fully. The same question has to be asked many times just to make you understand the question, is it not? If you like to reply, you may. Else it is drama.

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by sita » 13 Sep 2015

Vijaymala gets formed in Sangamyug, because it is in the Sangamyug that, through the help of the supreme Father, souls gain victory over Maya.

In the beginning of the Golden Age there are 900 000 souls. All of them gain their victory in the Confluence Age and they gain it number-wise. Hence vijaymala grows. First, one gains victory, then few, then more.

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by mbbhat » 13 Sep 2015

So, mostly you believe Vijayamala is up to 9 lakh souls.

But, no clear reply for other questions. When it gets formed? After formation of Rudrmala or before or together?
Vijaymala gets formed in Sangamyug, because it is in the Sangamyug that, through the help of the supreme Father, souls gain victory over Maya.
Why does Baba say Rudr cannot exist in Viayamala? [if you believe Vijayamala gets formed in Sangamyug].

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by sita » 13 Sep 2015

If it is said that vijaymala is of pure ones and rudramala of impure ones, so vijaymala must be after rudramala. It is also said that rudramala becomes vijaymala, so vijaymala must be after rudramala.

It is said that at the end, half pure and half impure souls will remain. This is not about those who come in Golden Age and those who don't, because these are not half-half, only very small percentage come to Golden Age. From these two halves it is not that the pure ones will become impure, because the cycle will turn backwards, but it is the impure ones that will become pure. This is the symbolic adding of the rudramala to vijaymala.

Although rudramala becomes ready first, the souls of rudramala do not achieve victory over vices first. There is no controversy. It is also said that the old ones will be left out and new ones will take it. New ones will go ahead of the old ones, they will go faster. This can be interpreted in the brahmin life too. New brahmins go ahead of the old ones. Why and how? It must certainly be due to some past acts. They must be second or third birth brahmins or have the habit of making intense effort for 63 births, otherwise it does not make sense that someone makes effort for a long time and someone outruns him within a short time.

It is also said that old, dirty clothes require a lot of water to clean. The souls of rudramala require a lot of knowledge to change. Whilst the souls of vijaymala, due to their sanskars of purity of many births find it easy to inculcate the knowledge in their practical life and move ahead in knowledge fast. So although rudramala becomes ready first, vijaymala achieves victory first.

When rudramala also become pure, when they become part of the vijaymala, then they are no more rudramala, they are vijaymala too, hence there cannot be rudrmala in vijaymala. When it is the day it is not not night. When it is the impure world, everyone is impure, when it is the pure world, everyone is pure.

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by mbbhat » 13 Sep 2015

sita wrote:If it is said that vijaymala is of pure ones and rudramala of impure ones,
Only the body is impure, not the soul. Mala gets formed only after the souls become pure. So, the above statement and the other points do not fit either logically or with the Murli points. How can impure souls get place in mala?

6-9-77(1):- Tum bachche ab purushaarth ki doudi pahan rahe ho. Kyonki tumhen doudi pahan ghar jaanaa hai. Phir vijaymala may aanaa hai. -7

=You children are now running the race of making effort. Because you have to go to/reach home in this race. Then you have to come in Vijaymala.

The Murli point clearly says, Vijaymala begins only after reaching home. So, it should be in next Kalpa. May be you may interpret this Murli point differently. Let us see.

SM 23-2-83(1, 2):- Ab merey bano. Samshaybuddhi vinashyanthi. AB TUM MUJH PAR NISHCHAY RAKHO TOH NISHCHAYBUDDHI VIJAYANTI. VIJAYMALA KE DAANEY BAN JAAYENGE. MALA KA RAAZ BHI SAMJHAAYAA HAI. JO ACHCHI SERVICE KARTE HAIN UNKI VIJAYMALA BANTI HAI. SABSEY AHCHI SERVICE KARNEVAALEY DAANEY RUDRMALA MAY AAGE AATE HAIN. PHIR Vishnu KI MALA MAY AAGE AAYENGE. Numberwaar 108 phir 16 hazaar ki mala bhi add karo. Aise nahi Satyug Tretaa may sirf 108 hee prince princess honge. VRUDDHI HOTI MALA BADHTHI JAATI. Praja ki vruddhi hogi toh zaroor prince princess ki bhi vruddhi hogi. Baap kahte hain kuch bhi na samjho toh poocho. -74-, 75 [mala]

Baba says, as the population increases in Golden & Silver Ages, mala also increases. From this, I believe Vijayamala is in Golden Age or heaven, not in Conf. Age.

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by sita » 13 Sep 2015

Yes, I believe reaching home is with the mind and intellect, achieving the incorporeal stage. It is even said that you children will bring Paramdham down to this world. Only after the soul has achieved an incorporeal stage can it be called pure. So, before going home, no soul is pure, even the souls of rudramala. Even if there is the practice of the incorporeal stage it is not complete till the end and through it we receive mukti, we receive relief from sorrow, it does not automatically mean we receive happiness. Happiness and peace is there automatically where there is purity, and the mothers are given the responsibility about this knowledge. Rudramala are all males by character.

So, certainly the karmic accounts of all souls finish simultaneously, they all gather in the Subtle Region and go to Paramdham like a swarm of mosquitoes, they go together, some in front, some in the back, but still they are together. This is about the end. Only then do souls become pure. But it is about the effort-making life before this. At the end we will become pure to the extent we have made effort before that. In the same way, those souls who have made effort to maintain purity throughout the past many births find it easy to follow the knowledge in the Confluence Age, whilst those who have practiced impurity for many births will obviously struggle on the path of knowledge. Still, the Father knows no one is pure, he does not come for the pure ones, so he picks the most degraded thorns first to change them into flowers, but they don't change. But those who easily change into flowers become examples, because practical example is needed.

As reaching Paramdham and incorporeal stage is possible whilst being in the body and reaching this with the mind, the heaven after is for all to see. The definition of heaven is going in the self, in the sage of self, in soul-consciousness. That is why all religions know about heaven, because they witness it in the Confluence Age. They witness it in the company of God. This is the highest heaven, that is why Confluence Age is higher than Golden Age and brahmins (in their complete form in the Confluence Age) are higher than deities. Otherwise different religions do not come in Golden Age, where do they know about heaven from. And when they speak about heaven, they speak about it in connection with God - IN Golden Age there is no God.

The Father gives mukti and jeevanmukti for one second to all souls in the Confluence Age and this is like inheritance - it is not a reward, it is not based on the effort of every soul. Based on the individual effort of every soul, it will certainly achieve its reward by the automatic process of cause and effect. But the inheritance of mukti and jeevanmukti must be experienced during the Confluence Age for one second where souls meet the Father, when there is the experience of one worldly family. They experience Paramdham in this world, they experience heaven in the Confluence Age.

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by mbbhat » 14 Sep 2015

As reaching Paramdham and incorporeal stage is possible whilst being in the body and reaching this with the mind, the heaven after is for all to see. That is why all religions know about heaven, because they witness it in the Confluence Age.
RIDICULOUS! Almost all the religions, which believe in heaven - they believe there had been apsaras, or virgins serving them in heaven, depicted as vicious. So- is this the result of their experience received from (your ShivBaba)? In Hindu scriptures, it is shown that deities in heaven were attacked by demons. And, hence folly violence too.

And- many of them also believe in permanent hell with burning fires, etc., no escape from it !

And, some religions do not believe in heaven at all. They believe in moksha (permanent liberation). They do not even believe in God. (mostly Buddhism, please check, I am not 100% sure).

If you see the videos (available in you tube) of NDE (near to death experiences), many of them have found heaven or light as well as hell. So, please understand that thought power and visions are going to play a great role in the drama, and not the AIVV corporeal leader.

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by sita » 16 Sep 2015

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2602&start=30#p50115
Baba (ShivBaba) is sitting in his (Brahma Baba’s) body. So surely one (RIGHTEOUS Child) will be reminded of (Brahma Baba’s corporeal) body also (EVEN AFTER he leaves his corporeal body). (Children think that) Such Soul (ShivBaba) present in such a body (of Brahma Baba – in ‘Sakar’ until 1969, and in ‘akar’ to date) possesses such virtues." (7.4.84, pg.1)
This is said to be wrong in the Murlis. We should not remember destructible objects. If we remember Brahma we will become impure. Even his photo should not be kept.

In the above mentioned post it is said that righteous children experience the current from the supreme Father, hence they are in the company of truth. Although I am not doubting the ability of the righteous children to experience current, it cannot be used as argument as there is no proof about what each one experiences.

Company of truth is practical, only then there could be purification process, when we receive the color of the company of our bodily organs. Whatever we experience through the body is easily remembered. If we see one, listen to one, we will remember one. Wherever our body is, there shall be our mind.

It is also said that wherever will be our money, there shall be our mind. If we invest money with humans we will remember humans. Like in the BK, people may give in the name of God and with a pure motive, but the ones whom they give are impure, hence it is not a charity, but a loss. Even if we give to humans, if they are helpers of God, if the river has a connection with the ocean these rivers are purifiers. But everyone can claim that I have mental connection with the ocean, what is the proof. The proof would be something to verify. The ocean himself should be able to verify if certain child is his instrument responsible. This way we will listen to one only. Otherwise if we listen to everyone claiming to have direct connection, receiving current, etc., we will surely be misguided. In the BKs it is people who make other people instrument responsible.
"You (RIGHTEOUS Children) know that (ShivBaba) is in the body of Brahma (Baba). So surely you will have to remember here (when you are STILL body-conscious). He’s not above (in the Soul World – at that PARTICULAR TIME when He is in the corporeal body of Brahma Baba, BUT He does not remain in the corporeal Body the whole day – He speaks the Versions and then LEAVES). He has come here at this Confluence Age. Father says I have come here to make you so great. You Children will remember here (UNTIL you are able to TRANSCEND body-conscious, and DEVELOP soul-consciousness). Father (ShivBaba) says I am in (Brahma Baba’s) body. Remember Me in THIS body (of Brahma Baba – in ‘Sakar’ until 1969, as long as you have the GROSS body-consciousness of your corporeal body; and in ‘akar’ after 1969, as long as you have the SUBTLE body-consciousness of your subtle body) ." (24-12-70 pg-3) 
In the above point it was said that the remembrance within a body and without a body depends on the stage of children. If they are able to transcend the remembrance within the body (that is of a lower level), they go to the higher level in akar after 69. But do we have the guarantee that in 69 all children automatically transcended the gross remembrance, just because Brahma Baba left the body. This was not result of their effort. What about those who did not transcend. In whose corporeal body are they to practice their lower and more basic level of remembrance after 69, so that they prepare themselves to transcend this. What about new souls coming to Gyan. Are they automatically more elevated, just because they have come after 69, when remembrance is possible only in akar.
Who are the RIGHTEOUS Children who CLEARLY UNDERSTAND the TRUTH, because they NOW CLEARLY EXPERIENCE the COMPANY of TRUTH, and who become TRUE through the CONSTANT COMPANY of the TRUE Father, ShivBaba or God, and who are involved in HIGHLIGHTING the CLEAR CONTRAST between what God ACTUALLY says and what human bodily ‘gurus’ or preceptors DECEPTIVELY say, and what is their final destination?

Who are the UNRIGHTEOUS children who DO NOT CLEARLY UNDERSTAND the TRUTH, because they are NOW NOT in the COMPANY of TRUTH, and who are STILL in the DEEP SLEEP of body-consciousness (and THEREFORE, who CANNOT become TRUE since they DO NOT have the CONSTANT COMPANY of the TRUE Father, ShivBaba or God), and who become FALSE in the constant company of FALSEHOOD of the CORRUPTED Knowledge of bodily ‘gurus’ or preceptors, (and THEREFORE, who are NOT ABLE to appreciate or DIFFERENTIATE the CLEAR CONTRAST between what God ACTUALLY says and what human bodily ‘gurus’ or preceptors DECEPTIVELY say - and who will SUDDENLY realize that the RIGHTEOUS Children were ONLY telling the ACTUAL TRUTH all along - but ONLY at the very END, when it will be TOO LATE), and what is their final destination?
For many births we have had righteous children telling us what God says. This does not work in the Confluence Age when God comes and himself says what he likes to say.

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by mbbhat » 16 Sep 2015

sita wrote:This is said to be wrong in the Murlis. We should not remember destructible objects. If we remember Brahma we will become impure. Even his photo should not be kept.
Again misunderstood or mis-interpretation by PBKs by taking isolated Murli points.

1)One Murli point says- Tum agar ShivBaba ko bhoolkar Brahma Baba ke pass bhee aate ho, toh paap atma bante ho = Even after you come to Brahma Baba, you become a sinful soul, if you forget ShivBaba.

2)Another one says- if you remember (just) Brahma, you will not get anything.

SM 13-4-78(2):- AISEY NAHI BRAHMA BABA KO Yaad KARNE SE VARSAA MILEGAA. THUR BHI NAHIN MILEGAA.

But, see the following Murli points.

3) SM 2-11-82(1, 2):- Saahukaaron ko sun_ne ki fursath nahin milti. Fursath gareebon ko milti hai. Tumhaari jitni fursath kisko bhi nahin hai. Narayan kumar hai {Rozi bahan ki pitaaji} dekho kitnaa swatantr hai. Vaanaprasth avasthaa hai. AISAA PARIVAAR DOOSRAA KOYI NAHIN HAI. Jinko lafdey jyaadaa hai. Unkaa Yoga lag nahin saktaa. Aaj Baba bachchi se pooch raha thaa ki "tum jaante ho, hum kiske rath ki seva kar rahe hain"? Ghode ki sambhaal karnevaalaa kahegaa hum falaaney saheb ki ghode ki sambhaal kar rahe hain. Tum bhi jaante ho yah kiskaa rath hai. AGAR ShivBaba KO Yaad KAR TUM IS RATH KI SEVA KARO TOH TUM BAHUTON SE ACHCHAA PAD PAA SAKTEY HO. YAH HUVAA RATH. Yaad TOH ShivBaba KO KARNAA HAI. YAH BHI Yaad KARE TO BEDAA PAAR HO SAKTAA HAI. -69, 69- [rath, Yaad, WOT]

= ...If you serve this Chariot in remembrance of ShivBaba, you can get better status than many others. ...

3)Another Sakar Murli point says- Prajapita kaa alag photo honaa chaahiye= There should be separate photo of Prajapita. .

4) SM 5-3-09(1):- Prajapita Brahma ke bachche hum braahman hain. Yah bahuton ko bhool jata hai. Jabki tum Baap ko Yaad karte ho to Brahma ko bhi Yaad karnaa pade. Hum braahman kul ke hai. Yah bhi nasha chadhe. Bhool jaate hain to yah nasha nahin chadhtaa ki hum braahman kul ke hain, phir devtaa kul ke banenge. [vimp]

= We are children of Prajapita Brahma, (and hence) we are Brahmins. Many forget this. Since you remember Father (Shiv), you would also remember Brahma. (Because) We belong to braamhin family. This intoxication should also arise. When you forget - that we belong to braahmin family and then we will belong to the deity family - then this intoxication does not arise.

5) AM 12-9-77(2):- Ab beeti so beeti kar sadaiv aisaa samjho main bachchaa hun, baap ke saath hun. Yah samajhne se vah bachpan ki jeevan smruti may rahegi. Jitnaa yah smruti rahegaa, toh us_se madad milegi. Phir mushkil kaary sahaj ho jaayegaa. AB SE APNE KO EK SECOND BHI BAAP SE ALAG NA SAMJHO. Sadaiv samjho- BAAP KE SAATH BHI HAI, aur Baap ke haath may meraa haath hai. Agar koyi bade ke haath may haath hota hai, toh chote ki sthiti bephikar, nishchint rahti hai. Toh samajhnaa chahiye har karm may BapDada meraa saathi bhi hai, aur humaarey is alowkik jeevan kaa haath unkey haath hain arthaath alowkik jeevan unkey havaaley hain. Jimmevaari unki ho jati. Sab bhoj Baap ke oopar rakh apney ko halka kar dena hai. Bhoj hee na hogaa toh mushkil lagegaa? Bhoj utaarney kaa vaa mushkil ko sahaj karne kaa saadhan hai baap kaa haath aur saath. Yah to sahaj hai na. Phir chahe Baap smruti may aaye, chaahe daadaa smruti may aaye. Baap ki smruti aayegi toh saath may daadaa ki bhi rahegee hi. Daadaa ki smruti se baap ki smruti bhi rahegi hee. ALAG HO NAHIN SAKTE. Agar Sakar snehi ban jate ho, to bhi aur sabse buddhi toot javegi na. Sakar snehi ban_naa bhi kam baath nahin hai. Sakar SNEH BHI SARV SNEH SE, ANEK SAMBANDHON SE BUDDHIYOG TUDAA DETE HAIN. To anek taraf se tod ek taraf jodney kaa saadhan to hai na. Sakar se niraakar zaroor Yaad aavegaa. Sakar se sneh bhi tab paidaa huvaa jab baap daadaa donon kaa saath huvaa na. Agar Baap kaa saath na hota to Sakar itnaa priy thode hee huvaa. Jaise BapDada donon saath hain, vaise aapki Yaad bhi saath2 ho jaavegi. -17- [Yaad, saath]

Unfortunately, even though most beloved Baba or BapDada have clearly explained the points, PBKs take just REVERSE meaning and misguide others. But, it is part of drama, so nothing new and wrong.

The purpose of Baba saying so is- some children totally forget ShivBaba and just get over-attached to Brahma Baba. For them Baba had said, you will get nothing by remembering Brahma. For example- Baba has once said- Subtle Region does not exist, buT then later clarified that Subtle Region DOES exist, and also had clarified why he had said so earlier (that Subtle Region does not exist). - Post No. 50 - http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... hote#p5623

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by arjun » 16 Sep 2015

All the above points related to the Sakar (corporeal Chariot) apply to the PBKs, and not to the BKs, at present, because ShivBaba's Sakar Chariot is available only for the PBKs. BKs think that ShivBaba is in the Supreme Abode.

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by mbbhat » 16 Sep 2015

arjun wrote:All the above points related to the Sakar (corporeal Chariot) apply to the PBKs, and not to the BKs, at present, because ShivBaba's Sakar Chariot is available only for the PBKs.
But, Murli points do not indicate so. They mean differently. The last Avyakt Murli point is a solid proof.
PBKs do not mention important Murli points in their literature, which CLEARLY CONTRADICT their philosophy, and prefer to hide them.

Further, PBKs have not been able to give even a single proof either from Murli points or logically that Virendra Dev Dixit is Chariot of ShivBaba. In fact, all of them go against their claims. Also many errors have been committed by the Chariot/leader of PBKs himself which are already highlighted in the forum by many members.
BKs think that ShivBaba is in the Supreme Abode.
COMPLETE MISUNDERSTANDING of the PBKs, regarding the BKs.

BKs believe ShivBaba is with Brahma Baba in Subtle Region. He, along with Brahma Baba, meet the children through the instrumental Chariot of Dadi Gulzar in Madhuban every year.

sita
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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by sita » 16 Sep 2015

Father says: if you remember this Dada (the corporeal medium), then your sins will not decrease, but they will increase. (7-2-75 pg-2)

To remember Brahma means to remember there is someone in whom the supreme Father has entered, there is some mouth through which the supreme Father speaks, there is a practical body. Many times it is said that remembrance is not possible without Brahma.

ShivBaba does not say that: do not remember Brahma. How can ShivBaba come to one’s mind without Brahma? Father says I am in this body. Remember me in this body. That’s why you remember both Baap (Father) and Dada (elder brother). (23-12-68 pg-3)

These are points about all souls being rudramala:

In a sense the whole world is a rosary of Rudra. There is a rosary of Prajapita Brahma. (24.2.74, pg.1)

Whichever soul is present in the entire world, is a bead of the rosary of Rudra. (7.5.73, pg.3)

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