Mbbhat's Views and Churnings

To discuss the BK and PBK versions relating to the progressive differential development of BK & PBK ideologies or theologies.
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rmn

Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by rmn » 29 Aug 2012

My dear Soul brothers--a) Mbbhat-BK, b) Arjun-PBK, c) Rudra Putra-PBK, d) Shivasena-ex-PBK-Mama, e) Sita-xxx, f) Fluffy Bunny-ex-BKWSU, g) John-BK, h) Andrey-PBK,i) Button Slamner-PBK and j) Bansy-Friend.

I requested above soul brothers to give clarifications on point wise not combined i.e. a) clarification, b) clarification etc., sita bahan pl give point wise clarifications.
thank
rmn

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by sita » 29 Aug 2012

a) As per Drama every Soul part is fixed for all yugas in Kalpa. By doing purusharth can we get the better part than existing part or better than last Kalpa in next Kalpa.
b) If not gets good part, what is the necessary to do purusharth or exta purusharth.
c) If sangma yug is a shooting period, if we do more purusharth can we chage our part/play in next Kalpa.
d) Is this sangam yug part/period was not included in Drama.
e) Why it called Bani Banaya drama.
f) Is like this, Soul will get higher rank due to purusharth and takes a higher rank's body( body-as per present kapla position) in next Kalpa. That means, souls' rank/grade will vary( increase or decrease as per purusharth) and bodies are not same in each Kalpa.
Ex: In present Kalpa,If A, B,C and D are souls and a,b,c and d are their bodies respectively. In this Kalpa: A-a and B-b,C-c and D-d are available as per purusharth of last Kalpa, the position of the grades are higher to lower i.e A,B,C and D/a,b,c and d. If in this Kalpa D soul has did more purusharth, then in the next Kalpa, is D soul will take the body of no.a and A soul has done less purusharth so can this soul takes the body no. d
a) no
b) part is played in the field of action where the law of action and result workd. If we think why make effort we will not make, so we will not have result. Since we don't know what our part is, if we have positive thoughts that we have a good part and get inspired to make effort, we make efort and get result. Nothing is achieved without effort.
c)no
e) because it is a cylce. whatever has been our actions in the past in the drama, so shall be our thoughts in the shooting period and whatever will be our thoughts, words and actions in the shooting period, so shall be our drama in future. It is said already made drama, because we cannot change the past. Whatever we have done in the past, we get result in the Sangamyug. We cannot change the past, it is already done and it results in the present.
f) no, soul's parts and their bodies both are fixed. Each Kalpa repeats identically, there is no change.

dear soul rmn, please, advice if you have been satisfied.

rmn

Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by rmn » 30 Aug 2012

My dear soul brother sita,
I have not satisfiedd,
If souls and bodies are fixed, then how we get big post if we do purusharth.
sangam yug is a drama or shooting period. or is sangam period is the part of drama or not.
thank
rmn

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by sita » 30 Aug 2012

If we do purushart and get good post, this is how we do every cycle.

Yes, sangam yug is part of the drama, whatever happens in sangam yug is also fixed.

rmn

Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by rmn » 31 Aug 2012

My dear soul brother sita bahan,
If sangam yug also fixed in drama why baba is telling it is shooting period.
If sangam yug also fixed in drama why the necessacity to do purusharth, whatever we did in last sangam yug that will be repeated.
thank
rmn

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by sita » 31 Aug 2012

rmn wrote:My dear soul Brother sita bahan,
If sangam yug also fixed in drama why Baba is telling it is shooting period.
If sangam yug also fixed in drama why the necessacity to do purusharth, whatever we did in last sangam yug that will be repeated.
thank
rmn
In the same way as in the seed, the knowledge of the whole tree is contained, so from a particular type of a seed, a particular type of a tree will emerge, mango seed will bring a mango tree, its not possible that a mango seed brings a papaya tree, and by looking at the seed we can know what kind of a tree will grow out of it, and by looking at the tree we can know what kind of seed it will bring. Similarly the shooting period is like the seed and the tree is like the drama.

It is shooting period, because in a short time, in a condensed form, the whole drama is repeated, it is contained in it in a short form. It is shooting period, because there is projection, whatever we do here, we do there. It is a shootimg period, because we are aware, we know the Godly knowledge, we know what to do and it seems to be in our hand to do what we like to, but because what we do today is result of what we had done yesterday, so nothing new will come in the shooting period. It is fixed, because we had fixed it with our actions in the past. In the course of the drama there is action and result, and action and result, and this chain is uninterrupted and the shooting period is also a part of this chain and it is a part of the drama, it is in the drama, itself.

Indeed, now, as in the beginning of time, we can cut whatever sins we had done in the past, but this does not mean that every cycle we will do different effort. If we do different effort every cycle, it means that the role that we have iside the soul is constantly changing, then how can we say eternal soul. Soul is eternal, because its role is eternal, eternally fixed and cannot be changed, drama is eternally fixed and cannot be changed. Although it is said shooting, but still the soul plays a role in this period, and this role is fixed there in the soul itself.

It is nessesery to make purusharth, because in the shooting period we understand the Law of Karma, that if we like to attain something, we have to make effort for it. If someone does not make effort he will reach a low post every cycle. If someone makes effort he will reach high post every cycle. Every cycle, the one who does not nake effort thinks - why should i make effort and does not make. Every cycle, the one making effort thinks - i have to make effort and makes.

We now have the knowledge through which to see and fix our part. You can ask yourself, what kind of a post will you achive without making effort, will it be high or low. Is it possiible to achive high post without making high effort? So through ones own efforts one is able to see what kind of post he has every cycle. His post is resut of his own efforts he does every cycle. There is connection between the effort made and the post achieved, or is it possible that we do effort and we don't get a post or that there is disproportion between what we do and what we get.

It is called a shooting period, because now through our own thoughts we create our own drama, we fix our future, through our thoughts. So we have to have positive thoughts for to fix a good part for ourselves. You can say, but if it is fixed already, what can i do. Yes it is fixed already and you cannot do anything, but is there some obstruction fo you now for to make effort and achieve. Is this knowledge that drama is fixed and there is law of action and result, is this knowledge that you have now obstructing, blocking your effort, or is it inspiring you to make more effort, because you know if you do every time you will achieve otherwise evere tyme you will repent. Then why do some souls make effort, why others not. It is because each ones role is fixed and even God cannot change it.

Since now we don't know for sure what our role is, we are not sure that our role is fixed as low, that i don't make effort every cycle, so why not think the opposite, that we have a good role and make effort as much as we can. What is the harm in making effort? Will there be some loss in making effort, is it possible that we make effort, but because our role is fixed as low, so despite making effort we don't achieve a good result.

The more we know ourselves now, in the shooting period, the more we will know our part in the drama also, because whatever happens now in small form, happens there in gross form. In fact when God comes he does not give happiness or sorrow to anyone, he does not make anyone make effort or restrain anyone from making effort, but he puts a mirror of knowledge in front of his face through which through his own thoughts, words and actions he is able to see himself, he is able to know his self, what type of soul he is, what is his role, what is his face like, how is his characte like, what are his acations like, what kind of effort does he do every cycle, what kind of a post does he achieve every cicle.

God does not give posts, nor do we earn them through effort, but now in the shooting period we are able to realize our role, to see what is fixed for us every cycle, and we don't see it with regret, because we see the interconnection beetween what we had done wnd what we had got, we don't feel someone has deprived us of something, nor given us what we don't deserve. We remember our role now in the shooting period, and then we forget it, because if in the Golden Age we knew that it is fixed in our role to fall in the future we will feel sorrow there and then and it would not be heaven, with no sorrow at all. That's why it is said that the Confluence Age is even higher than the Golden Age, becaue we attain knowledge about our complete, full role in the whole cycle of the drama, and we go above it, happiness and sorrow, we go in silence, in peace. After playing a role for so long, we are now able to stop and go home and rest, and not play a role anymore.

rmn

Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by rmn » 01 Sep 2012

Thank very much my dear sita bahan jii, u have given lot of examples as follows, a,b, c.

a. It is shooting period, because in a short time, in a condensed form, the whole drama is repeated, it is contained in it in a short form. It is shooting period, because there is projection, whatever we do here, we do there. It is a shootimg period, because we are aware, we know the Godly knowledge, we know what to do and it seems to be in our hand to do what we like to, but because what we do today is result of what we had done yesterday, so nothing new will come in the shooting period. It is fixed, because we had fixed it with our actions in the past. In the course of the drama there is action and result, and action and result, and this chain is uninterrupted and the shooting period is also a part of this chain and it is a part of the drama, it is in the drama, itself.

b.Indeed, now, as in the beginning of time, we can cut whatever sins we had done in the past, but this does not mean that every cycle we will do different effort. If we do different effort every cycle, it means that the role that we have iside the soul is constantly changing, then how can we say eternal soul. Soul is eternal, because its role is eternal, eternally fixed and cannot be changed, drama is eternally fixed and cannot be changed. Although it is said shooting, but still the soul plays a role in this period, and this role is fixed there in the soul itself.

c. It is nessesery to make purusharth, because in the shooting period we understand the Law of Karma, that if we like to attain something, we have to make effort for it. If someone does not make effort he will reach a low post every cycle. If someone makes effort he will reach high post every cycle. Every cycle, the one who does not nake effort thinks - why should i make effort and does not make. Every cycle, the one making effort thinks - i have to make effort and makes.


My doubt is if every thing is fixed in drama, a soul will do purushath as per last Kalpa's purshurath only,in case he wants to do more or less he cannot do it fact.
The example of Tree and Seed is very very good, but why some trees will give sweet and more fruits and some trees will give less fruits with less sweets, and also the size of the trees will vary. Is becuase of darthi quality of seed quality or environmet, how purusharth will added in this example to give sweet and more fruits i.e, higher posts.
thank
rmn

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by sita » 01 Sep 2012

From the point of view of effort, we can make effort to ensure more fertile soil is there in our intellect, that our intellect becomes more receptive, for the seeds of knowledge to be planted there and to take care of them, so that they give fruit in our actions, in our practical life. This is also something, why the seeds of knowledge sit in some intellects and not in others, it must be because of some predisposition from the past.

From the point of view of effort, also, we have to make sure not to plant seeds on stone, not to have wateful thoughts or lose our time in useless matters. Or once we had planted a seed of a positive thought, to sustain it and not let it dry out.

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 02 Sep 2012

# Post No. 30 ---example 07 under discussion- (DL...) -----

1)Some believe DL was not honest. But there is no surprise to hear such comments- since some can call Mama as idiots.

2)Some say DL had paid huge some to learn some tantric things from a Sadhu and that may be the cause for his success in gathering the children in Om Mandali.

But even today, people get visions of Brahma Baba . Hence I feel such claims have no value.
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3)Now, it is said- that the Date of Birth of DL is 1884.

In that case, the pbk philosophy will be proved as wrong, since according to them, it is is 1886. And they believe there was no Avyakt milan during 1988/89 for this reason.

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 02 Sep 2012

Who is it that sets the rules of what is right or not to ask BapDada ...
It is drama!

So- I should say- once gain that such questions who ask are , their understanding capacity is really less.

Because according to BK philosophy, God is bound in drama and drama is the highest powerful one. Unless we understand drama, we cannot understand God also .

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by fluffy bunny » 02 Sep 2012

Re: Drama, see this topic: here.
3)Now, it is said- that the Date of Birth of DL is 1884.

In that case, the PBK philosophy will be proved as wrong, since according to them, it is is 1886 ...
Therefore, by your logic, BK philosophy is therefore also false.

You cannot suggest the *entire* PBK philosophy is "proved wrong" just because they got one date wrong (I understand they have corrected it now).

Where did they get that date? It come from the BK's lack of factual and accurate Knowledge.

Have the BKs have corrected it yet and removed all the faulty information, or do they still sell books and mislead people with falsehood?
mbbhat wrote:1)Some believe DL was not honest. But there is no surprise to hear such comments- since some can call Mama as idiots.
Why not name me?

Tell me ...
  • • What do you call someone who thinks they are God and the Gita Sermoniser for at least 14 years (1932/1936 to 1950), sends letters to the Queen of England and Viceroy of India telling them to come to Karachi to join their cult, accuses Gandhi of being an unpatriotic traitor and dictator of the crow race, insults every other religion and holy place, and so on!?!

    • What do you call someone who thinks a middle aged man is God for at least 14 years?
Please, be honest. "Seriously deluded" is one answer, certainly idiotic; "childlike" might be the polite way to say it (... the correct definition for "idiot" is "a mentally deficient person", it is not just an insult). Om Radhe is not your Mama or mother. In fact, she is really nothing to today's BKs.


I think I only have an average intelligence, by Western standards. I am not super-intelligent and I am not stupid. *But* ... I have never even been deluded enough to think that I was God!!!

Only mad or people ... or people on drugs ... do.

I think Lekhraj Kirpalani suffered a temporary insanity and so too were the girls and women of Om Mandli sucked in. In English, we call it a "Folie à deux" (or shared psychosis). It is a known psychiatric syndrome in which symptoms of a delusional belief are transmitted from one individual to another.

In the case of the Om Mandli, you could call it ... a "folie en famille" or even a "folie à plusieurs" ("madness of many"). Recent psychiatric classifications refer to the syndrome as 'shared psychotic disorder' (DSM-IV) (297.3) and 'induced delusional disorder' (F.24)

Yes, I suspect whatever initiation the Saddhu of Bengal gave him brought it on.
2)Some say DL had paid huge some to learn some tantric things from a Sadhu and that may be the cause for his success in gathering the children in Om Mandali ... But even today, people get visions of Brahma Baba . Hence ...
And, "hence" ... what do you know about Siddhi powers? (I guess the answer is nothing).

Many people's get visions of many saints and gurus. Lekhraj Kirpalani is not unique.

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 09 Sep 2012

# Post no. 31

Example No. 08 - How to realize Teacher/ShivBaba?


A teacher cannot be realized independently. To realize him fully, even the knowledge of the subject should be learnt. A teacher does not teach or reply to satisfy the desires of the students. He teaches according to the syllabus and the rules of the management.

So- here- Drama is the syllabus as well as the management.

In a drama, the act of an actor can be understood properly only if we understand the significance/story of the drama. Similarly- in this world drama, the acts of ShivBaba can be fully known only if we understand drama.

This is the reason why Baba says- “If it is in drama, then only I will respond. If it is in drama, then I will enter in some children and uplift others”.

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 09 Sep 2012

# Post No. 32

Example No. 09 :- How does Drama control?

Drama does not control anything. Everything has its own nature. For example- A mango seed has its own nature. The drama (= knowledge, nature and power) of a mango seed is fixed in itself by its own nature. the seed will sprout under such conditions, it will grow to this much height under such conditions, will bear so much fruit, etc, etc. This drama/part is already there in itself by its own nature. It will follow its own nature.

Further more, the one who has highest influence is the one who is called as creator. God is the one who has highest control. He is the only one who cannot be influenced/controlled. We all have something common in us and that is god.

Just think- In this world- it is money that mainly controls. How does a paper control? does the paper really control? No. The highest authority of a nation makes some rules and regulations so that it will best fit to all the citizens in such a manner that- it will give the best justice to all. It gave such a value to money and is accepted by all others.

But, all these are temporary and fail since they are not the highest law.

There is something highest and that is called as the fundamental laws, and fundamental constants. it is said in science that- every body attracts another. why? they do not have answer for that. They say- it is their nature. They give or mention some gravitational constant something like 6.67 x 10 (to the power of minus eleven). Now, if we ask- why it is so much? why not 7.67...? the final answer is the only one- it is according to its own nature.

Nothing can go beyond nature and that nature is drama. But, man acts against his nature (soul conscious stage). Science also is used in such a way. Then what will happen? The effect will be temporary and will fail after some period. Hence the drama/law activities done/brought by man does not sustain/continue indefinitely. It dies after some period. Someone will come and take his place and power.

If we apply our force on some object such that- our forcing frequency is in tune (equal to) with the natural frequency of the object, there would be resonance and it will sustain maximum. God applies his force in such a way. Since he is fully knowledgeful, and is fully capable, he gets 100% success and remains as God eternally. Else- if he misuses his authority, then he also will develop karmic account. there can be imbalance and the next time cycle/Kalpa would change. In this example- if there is difference in frequency, the oscillations will not remain as high and continuous as the former.

Since god is so pure, he gets highest power of control automatically. When people see light, automatically, they will have to believe that- yes, there is sun (or some source) somewhere. So- god will be revealed to the whole world when enough amount of light is seen in this physical world (when BKs become pure to the level determined by drama)
----------------
It is proved that thoughts have control over body and nature and man uses not even 2 or 3% of his thought power.

So- the power of drama through god will be revealed only when our though power reaches that level. Till there drama will be incognito for people.
---------
We will never come to know what is going to happen in future in advance fully. So- even though everything is preordained, since we have forgotten the past, and hence do not know about future, and god will never tell us them in every minute detail, we will not be able to do something new or different than what we had done in the last Kalpa. Baba gives knowledge of drama only to the extent needed to put effort.

I remember a story on this. There was an astrologer (one who predicts future) in a Kingdom and whatever he said was becoming true. He had high fame for that. The King got jealous of him. The King wanted to prove him false. The King said to the astrologer and asked him- "Tell me now through which door i will enter my palace tomorrow?" [the king had already determined that- if the astrologer predicts through front door, I will purposefully enter through the back door and vice versa]

The astrologer was able read King's mind and understood the evil thinking of the king. so- he just replied to the king- "you will come to know automatically when you enter the palace tomorrow" and left.

The king got confused. why he did not give straight reply whether through front door or back door? what if he says this to someone today and if it happens that i also enter through the same door?! So- He thought of a crooked plan.

Next morning he asked his servants and said- "Today- I will enter the palace not through any door. Break the wall. I will enter through this way" . The servants broke the wall. As soon as the king entered inside, the servants found a slip of paper in those bricks. It was written "Dear Majesty- this is the way where you will enter".

The king was both surprised as well as felt ashamed.

So- any attempt to change drama or feeling the concept of drama as silly would be like this. Drama is highest. Nothing can overcome it.
-
[/color]------------------------
Regarding my views on drama repetition, i had written in this thread-

On the Way to Paramdham. - http://bk-pbk.info/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=1556&start=60

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 09 Sep 2012

# Post No. 33----example 07 (DL) --- under discussion----
Therefore, by your logic, BK philosophy is therefore also false.
Again low level of understanding*!

I had already said in that post itself- I do not know to what period/instant Baba may be pointing his entrance as official one. Baba may be feeling in his inside as- "OK- now, I have announced my entrance officially that i am present in this body. I have entered this body, etc". At that time, it may be 60 yrs to DL.

Moreover, I still have doubt and do not depend or rely on these figures. It is PBKs who depend on these figures to give their knowledge.

But still PBKs have double standards here- when it comes to the age of VD, they give subtle meanings for that and do not take physical age there.

Of course, we can say- the BK literature where it is written that DL was 60 by 1876 are false.
------------
* It is really surprising that you do not understand what is logic or my logic. I do not depend on physical facts and dates like what PBKs claim. It is PBKs who claim so. They claim that- they know meaning of each and every Murli point. I have already written a thread where many doubtful things there.

http://bk-pbk.info/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2012

Moreover even BKWSU does not depend on physical dates to give its knowledge as much as PBKs do. It is PBKs who try to separate and discriminate each and every issue like- this is shooting period within the Confluence Age- Golden Age is from this to this, Silver Age is from this to this.,,,, the part of brahma is from this to this. the part of Vishnu is from this to this....

So- failure of such figures is a great blow to their philosophy and not to that extent to BK philosophy.

Hope you understand the meaning of logic.

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 09 Sep 2012

Post No. 34--------example 07 (DL...) under discussion ----------
1)You cannot suggest the *entire* PBK philosophy is "proved wrong" just because they got one date wrong (2)I understand they have corrected it now).

3)Where did they get that date? It come from the BK's lack of factual and accurate Knowledge.
1)It is as good as entire pbk philosophy wrong. Because they depend on those figures to give their knowledge to BKs.

2)Is it so? So- even PBKs have corrected it now? Then it is a great news!

3) great! then it automatically implies- there is no god sitting there. It is just VD trying to prove himself or his theory. Any such mistakes of BKs when pointed, it is a blow to PBK philosophy.

[once again i should say here that your level of understanding is low here or you do not know what is logic here- because- when PBKs claim they have God with them and it is god who gives clarifications to them, yet not been able to point our mistakes done by BKWSU and just following them! But once again accusing BKWSU for that!]

I should actually say- thanks to those who put effort in getting date of birth of DL as 1884. Because BKs are not going to lose much in that (failing to prove that it is not 1876), since they already have many other failed predictions.
I think Lekhraj Kirpalani suffered a temporary insanity and so too were the girls and women of Om Mandli sucked in. In English, we call it a "Folie à deux" (or shared psychosis). It is a known psychiatric syndrome in which symptoms of a delusional belief are transmitted from one individual to another.

In the case of the Om Mandli, you could call it ... a "folie en famille" or even a "folie à plusieurs" ("madness of many"). Recent psychiatric classifications refer to the syndrome as 'shared psychotic disorder' (DSM-IV) (297.3) and 'induced delusional disorder' (F.24)
OK, fine and happy to read and feel. there is nothing wrong in you, because if i am in your place, i also might have felt same.
Many people's get visions of many saints and gurus. Lekhraj Kirpalani is not unique.
I think it is usually for those- who initially had belief in their such gurus. they will have photos of their gurus already at home and will be worshipping in one or other ways.But here it is different. They have not seen or heard of Brahma Baba.

Recently I heard one more experience of a foreigner. After the vision, etc, etc, when he approached BK centre and saw photo of brahma Baba, he said, "He is my Father whom I have already seen in vision".

And I respect even those lowkik gurus (whose visions are received) as pure to considerable extent and not believe that they are not tantric people. But, in your case, you believe DL was fully ordinary, and perhaps immoral, did some tantric things, blah, blah, blah ... and then still his vision gives a feeling of Father, divinity to those who are totally unaware of DL- ... so- there is a great difference here.

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