Mbbhat's Views and Churnings

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by Roy » 01 Jan 2013

A Subtle Region that actually exists somewhere between this corporeal world and the Soul World, makes no sense if you think about it... What purpose does it serve? A Subtle Region of thinking and churning makes absolute sense. A subtle body is constructed of subtle yet physical energy... it is a sign of not being complete... all ghosts carry a subtle body around with them... it means body consciousness still prevails to some extent, even though the gross body has been shed. What has this to do with a subtle spiritual region, that is supposed to be a sort of halfway house in the sky... This is definately the stuff of Bhakti, as Father Shiv has clearly stated in the Sakar Murli. The Subtle Regions are merely a place of subtle experience within the mind... the soul doesn't have to travel innumerable miles to a Subtle Region on the edge of the universe to get one... Father Shiv can create these experiences, whilst you safely remain in your corporeal body. Even then, Baba has warned that these experiences have no real value... it's about knowledge and remembrance.

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by arjun » 03 Jan 2013

1596.

“बाबा ने समझाया है सूक्ष्मवतन आदि में जो कुछ देखते हो यह तो सब हैं साक्षात्कार की बातें। बाकी हिस्ट्री-जाग्राफी सारी यहाँ की है। इनकी आयु का किसको पता नहीं है। अभी तुम बच्चों को बाप ने समझाया है, तुम फिर कोई को भी समझा सकते हो।“(ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक 24.11.09, पृ. 3)

“Baba has explained - Whatever you see in the Subtle Region etc are topics of visions. As regards history, geography, it is of this place. Nobody knows about their age. Now the Father has explained to you children; then you can explain to anyone.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 24.11.09, pg 3 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 06 Jan 2013

I know the above Murli points. Even the Avyakt Vani point has already given the explanation for that.

PBKs ignore the other/Avyakt Murli point. Actually, the Avyakt Murli point is the latest one.

PBKs are free to derive their meanings.

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 03 Mar 2013

# Post No. 75:- A Murli point (not in exact words):- sabsey badi pareekshaa hai Baap ko pah_chaan_naa = the highest test is to recognize the Father.

Some believe that the test is to recognize the Father physically. - whether ShivBaba is in dixit or BBaba ...

But, I think the Murli point stresses emotionally here. That is- once you understand his physical presence (that God has descended to world from Paramdham, speaks Murli, gives property, etc ), then the next test is emotional.

That is-

# to what extent we put our burden on God and become carefree in our life,
# to what extent we develop faith in Baba so that we develop faith to conquer Maya and follow srimath fully and become dhaarnaa moorth.
# to what extent we develop faith in Baba that Baba is my all relations, including money

Murli point:- Baba sirf sarv sambandhi nahee, sarv sampatthi bhi hai = Baba is not just all the relations, but also all the wealth.

So- to what extent we surrender to Baba or become trustee is the test - I think this is what the Murli point says.

Else, if the main issue is to recognize Father physically, how can there be numberwise ranks in either BKWSU or AIVV? All who have recognized Dixit or DL should have passed, is it not?

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by Roy » 03 Mar 2013

mbbhat wrote:Some believe that the test is to recognize the Father physically. - whether ShivBaba is in dixit or BBaba ... But, I think the Murli point stresses emotionally here. That is- once you understand his physical presence (that God has descended to world from Paramdham, speaks Murli, gives property, etc ), then the next test is emotional. So- to what extent we surrender to Baba or become trustee is the test - I think this is what the Murli point says.
"So most important, is to understand the role of Father... who is Father?... until this is understood, everything is a waste." [Mu 05.04.67]

"When there is no (physical) body there is no part (or role)." [Mu 05.06.99]

"Those who remember Father above (in the Soul World, Paramdham) follow the path of worship, because they do not know the occupation. They do not know His name, form, country, and time." [Mu 14.10.68]

"First, by remembering the face, you can then remember the soul." [Mu 20.03.09]


The corporeal part is of great importance, as we have to recognise the role of Father, as apposed to that of the role of mother. BKs believe they have recognised the Father, but they haven't, because the role of Father is different to that of mother. Until there is recognition of Father's role, one remains an incomplete Brahmin; because children have a mother and a Father, and both roles are played practically in the Confluence Age. Also, we take spritual birth directly through the mother, but receive our inheritence through the Father.

"ShivBaba bestows the inheritance (of Ramraj) to Brahmakumaris and Brahmakumars, through (the corporeal Father) Prajapita Brahma(Ram). ShivBaba creates the Brahmin race (or religion) through (the mother) Brahma(Baba Krishna)." [Mu 01.03.76]

"It has been said earlier too, that one will get the inheritance from the Father. One should know the Father (accurately in his practical living form), know the time, know oneself, then claim the inheritance (directly and practically in this very birth, not the next one). Now the Father has come (in corporeal form), He is giving the inheritance (to his children who are also in corporeal form)... this should be clear in the intellect, only then can one claim the inheritance (of nar to Narayan, in this very birth)." [Av 15.11.11]

"He(Shiva) is called – You are my Mother and Father. So He is incorporeal isn’t He? So, mother (Brahma Baba Krishna) and Father (Prajapita-Ram aka Shankar) are required in corporeal form." [Mu 26.10.07]

“In reality, this Brahma(Baba Krishna) is mother(the part of mother is played through him, by Father Shiv, from 1947/8 to 1968/9). But because of his male body, how can he be kept in charge of the mothers? For this reason, Jagadamba(Om Radhe) has been made instrumental.” [Mu 18.05.78]

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 03 Mar 2013

Wonderful Murli points and good churning.

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 25 Jul 2015

Post No. 76) From here- viewtopic.php?f=37&t=2612
bhagirath wrote: (WHO IS ASKING THIS QUESTION?)

(WHO IS SAYING THIS-EVEN Father Brahma?)

PROOF THAT Dada LEKRAJ IS NOT SPEAKING THESE Avyakt Murlis, IT IS ONLY ONE OTHER PERSON WHO CAN SPEAK IN WAY OF KNOWLEDGE LIKE THIS
I believe it is simple. ShivBaba is speaking here. There are two souls, Bap(ShivBaba) and Dada(B Baba)

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by bhagirath » 26 Jul 2015

How can ShivBaba speak, he is point like soul, he needs a Chariot body to speak in the corporeal. So, my point is, if Lekhraj Kirpalani is speaking why is he asking the question in this way? Why he does not say 'I' ?

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 26 Jul 2015

Avyakt BapDada 05/03/04
bhagirath wrote:How can ShivBaba speak, he is point like soul, he needs a Chariot body to speak in the corporeal. So, my point is, if Lekhraj Kirpalani is speaking why is he asking the question in this way? Why he does not say 'I' ?
BapDada means two souls. Both ShivBaba and B baba are there in body of Gulzar, during Avyakt meeting.
So, even ShivBaba can speak through the body of Dadi Gulzar, is it not?

Now, the ball goes to the court of PBKs to reply, who is speaking this. They believe just one soul (B baba) enters into the body of Dadi Gulzar, while narrating Avyakt Murlis/Vanis.

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings.

Post by mbbhat » 04 Nov 2015

# Post No. 77) ShivBaba does not enter in Mama:-

SM 1-11-83(2, 3):- ShivBaba vahaan rahte hain. ShivBaba yahaan aakar sunaate hain. Parantu humko Yaad vahaan karnaa hai. Yahaan nahin. BUDDHI DOOR2 TAK JAANI CHAAHIYE. Yahaan nahin. Yah ShivBaba toh chalaa jaayegaa. ShivBaba IS EK MAY HI AATE HAIN. Mama MAY TOH NAHIN AAYENGE. Tum jaante ho yah Baba kaa rath hai. PARANTU INKEY CHAHREY KO NAHIN DEKHNAA HAI. BUDDHI VAHAAN LATKI RAHE. YAHAAN BUDDHI RAHNEY SE ITNAA MAJAA NAHIN AAYEGAA. Yah koyi yaatraa nahin huyi. = SM 3-10-2008

= ShivBaba lives there (in the Soul World or Supreme Abode). ShivBaba comes here(on the corporeal sphere) and speaks. But we have to remember (Him) there (in the Soul World, World of Peace or Paramdham). NOT HERE (on this corporeal sphere) . Your intellect should go FAR, FAR away (to the World of Peace). NOT HERE (on this Field of Action). This ShivBaba will go back (He cannot remain seated on the Chariot the whole day; He speaks the Murli, then leaves). ShivBaba comes ONLY IN THIS ONE (only in DLR, and NO ONE ELSE). He would NOT (EVEN) come in Mama (Om Radhe - Saraswati). You know that this (DLR) is the (APPOINTED, FIXED, PERMANENT) Chariot of (Shiv)Baba (in 'Sakar' until 1969, and in 'Akar' to date). But you should NOT look at this one's face (you should NOT remember this one, you should NOT even remember Him in this one's body). Your intellect should be fixed (or attached) THERE (up above, in the Soul World). If the intellect remains HERE (in this impure corporeal body, or on this degraded corporeal sphere) you will NOT EXPERIENCE so much joy. This (remembering Him inside an impure corporeal body, on this degraded corporeal sphere) CANNOT be considered to be a pilgrimage (of ACCURATE, UNADULTERATED remembrance). = SM 03.10.2008

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings

Post by mbbhat » 18 Dec 2015

# Post No. 78) Who is Shankar?

Since Murli point says "Saraswathi should/can be placed at the seat of Shankar", at present I believe Shankar applies to the complete or angelic form of Mama.

Baba says- when you become pure, others will get vision. And Baba also says- you all have your pure angelic forms in Subtle Region. So- when we become pure, a subtle service will occur automatically by purity. A great Murli point is put in Post No. 170 - http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... 353#p14353
So Mama's angelic body or pure stage after 1965 June may represent Shankar. But, before it, a few comments and Murli points.

COMMON ASPECTS said in Murlis about Brahma and Shankar:-

1)Part of Brahma and Shankar are less:-
1a)SM 17-8-2000:- Sabsey jaasti part kahenge Vishnu ka. 84 JANMON KA VIRAAT ROOP BHEE Vishnu KA DIKHAATE HAIN, NA KI BRAHMA KA. Viraat Roop Vishnu kaa hee banathay hain. Kyonki pahley2 Prajapita Brahma kaa naam dharthay hain. BRAHMA KAA BHEE BAHUT THODAA PART HAI. ISLIYE VIRAAT ROOP Vishnu KAA DIKHAATE HAIN. Chaturbhuj bhee Vishnu kaa banaa dete. Vaastav may yah alankaar tumhaare hain. Yah bhee bade samajhney kee baatein hain. Koyi manushy samjhaanaa na sakey. BAAP NAYE2 TAREEKE SE SAMJHAATE RAHTE HAIN. Baap kahte hain Trimurti Shiv Bahagavaanuvaach right hai na. Vishnu, BRAHMA AUR SHIV. AUR ISMAY BHEE PRAJAPITA BRAHMA HEE BACHCHAA HAI. Vishnu ko bachchaa naheen kahenge. Bhal creation kahte hain, parantu rachnaate Brahma ki hogi. Jo phir bhinn naam roop lete hain. Mukhy part toh unkaa hai. BRAHMA KA PART BHEE THODAA HAI IS SAMAY KAA. Vishnu KAA KITNAA SAMAY RAAJY HAI. Saare jhaad kaa beej roop hai ShivBaba. [collected from others] - BVS - VVIMP

= Highest part is of Vishnu. In the Viraat Roop of 84 births, Vishnu is shown, not Brahma. The Viraat Form is made on Vishnu. Because first he takes name PPB. PART OF BRAHMA IS ALSO VERY LESS. Hence Viraat Roop is made of Vishnu. Even the four arms is shown to Vishnu. Actually, they belong to you. This is also important things to be understood. No human can explain this. Father KEEPS ON EXPLAINING BY VARIOUS WAYS. Father says- Trimurti Shiv Bahagavaanuvaach is right, is it not? Vishnu, Brahma and Shiv (Usually Baba says- B,V,Shankar or B,V, Shiv). AND, IN THESE PPB ONLY IS CHILD. Vishnu CANNOT BE CALLED AS CHILD. OF COURSE, IT IS SAID CREATION, BUT IT WOULD BE OF(THROUGH) BRAHMA, IS IT NOT, WHO THEN TAKES DIFFERENT NAME AND FORMS. MAIN PART IS OF HIM(Vishnu). THE PART OF BRAHMA IS ALSO VERY LESS, OF THIS PERIOD. HOW LONG KINGDOM OF Vishnu IS. The seed of the whole tree is ShivBaba. –BVS- imp

1b)SM 30-7-81(1):- ShivBaba Brahma may aakar Vishnupuri ki sthaapnaa kar rahe hain. Saamney khade hain. Oopar may hain ShivBaba. Brahma aur Vishnu bhi yahaan chahiye. Shankar KA PART HI OOPAR MAY HAI THODA SAA. ShivBaba ne Brahma dwara sthaapanaa ki thi. Ab kar rahe hain. Yah hai pravruttimarg. . -142, 142-

= ShivBaba has come in Brahma and is creating Vishnupuri. (Visnhu) is standing in the front. At top (of Trimurti picture) there is ShivBaba. Brahma and Vishnu are needed here. Shankar’S PART IS ONLY AT ABOVE, AND It is only a little. ShivBaba had done creation through Brahma. Now he is doing. ......

2)1)Shankar and subtle Brahma never become impure!

2a)SM 7-9-77(3):- Gaayaa bhi jata hai Brahma dwara braahman, devtaa aur kshatriy dharm ki sthaapnaa. Yah toh seedhi baath hai. Sadguru toh ek hee hai. Brahma ka bhi vah Guru ho gaya. Vishnu ka Guru nahin kahenge. Brahma ka guru ban unko Vishnu devtaa banaya hai. Shankar ka bhi guru kaise ho sakta? Shankar TOH PATIT BANTAA HEE NAHIN. UNKO GURU KI KYAA DARKAAR HAI? Brahma toh 84 janm lete hain. Visnhu ke bhi 84 janm kahenge. Shankar KE THODE HEE 84 JANM HOTE HAIN JO UNKO GURU KI DARKAAR RAHE. NAHIN. SIRF BRAHMA KAA HEE GURU THAH_RAA. Unki sadgati hoti hai to jaakar Vishnu bante hain. Kitnee achchi2 baatein hain. Jitnaa dhaaran karenge aur karaavenge, pad bhi oonch paavenge. -9- [Trimurti, Shankar]

= It is said, Creation of braahmin, deity and kshatriy religions through Brahma. This is straight/direct matter. Sadguru is just one. Guru of even brahma is himself (the sadguru). It cannot be said Guru of Vishnu. (The Sadguru) has become guru of Brahma and then have made him Vishnu. How can there be Guru to Shankar? Shankar NEVER BECOMES IMPURE. WHAT IS THE NEED OF GURU TO HIM? Brahma takes 84 births. Even (we) say 84 births of Vishnu. (WHAT IS) THE NEED OF GURU TO Shankar WHEN HE DOES NOT TAKE 84 BIRTHS? No. (The Sadguru) is Guru of just Brahma. When sadgati of Brahma happens, he becomes Vishnu. How good matters/topics are. More you understand and teach others, better your status would be.

Actually any soul except ShivBaba will come in cycle of birth and death and will become impure. But, Baba says-Shankar never becomes impure. So, I believe the title Shankar applies to just temporary period only of a karmaateet soul.

2b)SM 26-10-83(1):- ShivBaba samjhaate hain bachchon ko is Brahma ke rath dwara. ... Mujhe apna rath nahin. Mujhe rath toh zaroor chaahiye. Jaise tum harek atma ko apna2 rath hai na. BVS ko bhi sookshm sharir hai na. ....To Baap kahte hain main aavoon toh kaise? Kiske sharir may avoon? Pahley2 toh mujhe Prajapita chaahiye. SOOKSHMVATANVAASI PRAJAPITA KO YAHAAN KAISE LE AA SAKTAA? VAH TOH FARISTA HAI NA. UNKO PATIT DUNIYAA MAY LE AAVOON, YE TOH DOSH HO JAAYE. KAHENGE MAINEY KYAA GUNAAH KIYAA. Baap samjhaate hain badi ramaneek baatein hain. Samjhegaa vo hi jo baap kaa banaa hogaa. Ghadi2 baap ko yad kartaa rahega. Baap kahte hain main aataa hun, jab dharti par paap badh jaataa hai. Kaliyug may manushy kitney paap karte hain. Bhrashthaachaar hai. Bandar misal ek do ko daraate rahte hain. Baath math poocho. Toh bap poochte hain, bachche, bataavo- main aavoon, toh kis tan may aavoon. MUJHE CHAAHIYE BHI VRUDDH ANUBHAVI RATH. YAH JO MAINE RATH LIYAA HAI, BAROBAR INKAY BAHUT GURU KIYE HUYE HAIN. SHAASTR AADI PADHAA HUVAA HAI. Yah bhi likhaa hai na, bahut padhaa huvaa thaa. Arjun ki baath nahin. Mujhe arjun ka, va Krishn ka rath thode hi chaahiye. Mujhe toh chaahiye Brahma ka rath. Unko hi Prajapita kahenge. Krishn ko toh Prajapita nahin kahenge. Manushyon ki buddhi may kitni moorkhataa bhari huyi hai. Kuch bhi samajhte nahin. Baap ko toh Brahma ka hi rath chaahiye jis_sey braahmanon ki prajaa rache. Braahmanon ka hai sarvottam kul. Virat roop dikhaate hain na. Devtaa, K, V, Shudr. Baaki braahman kahaan gaye? Yah kisko bhi pataa nahin. Oonch te oonch hai braahmanon ki choti. -27- [Prajapita]-vimp

=... In whose body should I come? First I need Prajapita. How can I bring the subtle word Prajapita here? here. He is angel, is it not? If I bring him in the impure world, it would be wrong. He will complain what wrong/sin have I done (to bring me in this impure world)? These are ramaneek matters…...


3)There is no DAY and NIGHT for subtle deities:-

3a) SM 25-9-73(2):- Jab tak RudrBaba is sharir may hain sunate hi rahenge. Prajapita Brahma bhi zaroor yahaan hi hoga na. Brahma ka din Brahma ki raath gaayaa huva hai. Sookshmvatanvasi Brahma Brahma ka thode hi din aur raat bataavenge. Vah to sookshmvatanvasi devta hain. Din aur raat ka prashn yahaan kaa hai. Brahma ki raath maanaa patit. Phir vahi pavan bante hain. To dinn hota hai. Brahma ko bhi pavan bananevaala VAH ek sadguru hai. -115-

= ....Prajapita Brahma would definitely be here. It is said day and night of Brahma. THERE CANNOT BE DAY AND NIGHT OF SUBTLE BRAHMA. He is Subtle Region resident deity. Night and day are here. Night of Brahma means impure. The same then becomes pure. Then it becomes day. The one who makes Brahma pure is also the only Sadguru.

3b) SM 18-10-78(1):- Pahley Parampita Paramatma rachtaa. BVS ko rachte hain. PHIR SABKO VAAPIS JAANAA HAI TOH PAHLEY BVS JAAVENGE. UNHON KE TOH DIN AUR RAATH HO NA SAKEY. Brahma ka din aur Brahma ki raath gaayaa huvaa hai. Barobar PP Brahma ki raath ko phir Brahma ka din banaaney aataa hai. PPB ka din toh BKyon kaa bhi din ho jaataa hai. Din kaha jaataa hai Satyug, Tretaa ko. Raath kahaa jaataa hai Dwapur, Kaliyug ko. -23 [ = SM 8-10-83(1) ]

= First is the SS who is creator. He creates BVS. Then all have to return, so first it would be BVS. There is no DAY and NIGHT of them. .....

4)Highest among trimurtis are- Brahma and Shankar:-
Sometimes Baba places Brahma at top, sometimes Shankar. [In rare cases, even Vishnu].
4a)SM 28- 09-72(1):- Oonch te oonch hai hi ShivBaba. Phir kahte hain Trimurti Brahma. Trimurti may Brahma ko jasti rakhte hain. Trimurti ShivShankar nahin kah sakte(!). Gaaya bhi jaataa hai Dev_Dev Mahadev. Pahle Brahma aata hai. In teen(3) devtaavon may Number One hai Brahma. Brahma ko hi Guru kahte hain. Vishnu ko va Shankar ko Guru nahin kah sakte. Teen murti hai. Mukhy hai Brahma. Vah sookshmvatanvasi to hai sampoorn Brahma. Aur yah Purusharthi. Inko Purusharth kar aisaa sookshmvatanvaasi ban_na hai. Sookshmvatan may Mama Baba baithe hain. Unhon kaa naam hee hai Sampoorn Mama Baba. Yahan yah hai Apoorn. Yah jab sampoorn ban jaavenge to phir yah sharir choot jaavega. Features to ek jaise hi hai. Oonch te oonch huvaa ShivBaba sabhi ka Baba. Phir gaayaa jataa hai GREAT2 GRANDFATHER jis_se manushy srushti kaa jhaad sizra nikalta hai. Yah manushy srushti roopi jhaad hai. Pahle2 ADAM arthaat AdiDev AdiDevi. Unsay rachnaa rachte hain. Parantu Brahmakumari koyi sabhi 500 karod thode hi honge. (Pg 24 of the thick book)

= Highest is ShivBaba. Then they say- Trimurti Brahma. In trimurtis, Brahma is placed highest. It is never said Trimurti Shiv Shankar. It is said Dev Dev Mahadev. ..

4b)SM 11-1-78(3):- Yah Brahma hai murabbi bachcha. Kahte hain Trimurti brahma. Trimurti S va Trimurti V nahin kahenge. Dev2 Mahadev to Shankar ko kahte hain, phir Trimurti Brahma kyon kahte? Insay Praja rachte hain. To yah unki vanni(stree) banti hai. S va V vanni nahin bante hain. Yah bahut wonderful baatein hain samajhne ki. Besamajhvaale bhi samajhvaalon se in baaton may teekhe jaa sakte hain. Sirf baap aur varse ko Yaad karna hai. Bas. Isee may hee mehnat hai.

= This Brahma is the first(highest) child. It is said (in lowkik)Trimurti Brahma. It is not said Trimurti Shankar or Trimurti Vishnu. Dev2 Mahadev is said (in lowkik) to Shankar. Why is it said Trimurti Brahma? (Because), through him, the citizens are created. So, this becomes vanni(wife). Shankar or Vishnu do not become vanni. These are wonderful things to be understood.

4c)SM 22-2-77(1,2):- GAAYAA BHI JAATAA HAI PRAJAPITA BRAHMA. Trimurti bhi kahte hain. BVS dev2 Mahadev kahte hain. TEENON MAY PHIR BRAHMA KAA NAAM OONCH KYON? Trimurti Brahma kyon kah dete? Brahma to yahaan hee hota jiske rath may ShivBaba aate hain. Vishnu aur Shankar ko devtaa kahte hain. Achchaa Brahma jo hai unko devtaa kahnaa chahiye? Vo to PRAJAPITA BRAHMA manushy chahiye. Rath chahiye na. Gaayaa bhi huvaa hai PRAJAPITA BRAHMA dwara srushti rachte hain. Zaroor braahman hee rachenge. Brahma mukh kamal dwaaraa braahman rachte hain. TO YAH KITNEE BADE TE BADI HASTI HAI. Aur hai kitnee saadhaaran. Baap hee manushy maatr ko dukh se chudaakar Shantidhaam Sukhdhaam le jaanevaalaa hai. Itney bade te badi hasti hai unki rahnee karnee dekho kaisee hai? Kitnaa niraakaar aur nirahankaar hai. Abhi tumharee sevaa may upasthit hai. Dekho kaise baith padhaate hain. 73, 73-

= ...Among the three, why name Brahma is highest? ...

4d)SM 24-6-73(1):- Ab tumko srimat milti hai. Bachche jaante hai do(two) math gayi huyi hain. Ek hai srimat yaani bhagaavan ki srimat arthaat behad Baap ki math. Unhon_ne Krishn kaa naam daal diya hai. Vah to wrong hai. Krishn ko Baap nahin kah sakte. Baap hote hain 3. Ek oonch te oonch Parampita paramatma, aatmaavon kaa Baap. Doosraa hai PRAJAPITA BRAHMA. Unko Parampita nahin kahenge. Vah to praja ka pita ho gaya. Unkaa naam bhi baalaa hai. Krishn ko Prajapita nahin kahenge. Teesraa hai lowkik Baap. Behad ka Baap kahte hain bachche dehi abhimaani bano. Ab tumko srimat, direction milti hai. Donon ki math ikatthi miltee hai. Tum mah_soos karte ho yah mahavaaky ShivBaba samjhaa rahe hain. Kabhi2 Brahma ka bhi nikalta hai Trimurti Shiv ke badley. Bhool se Trimurti Brahma kah diyaa hai. Parantu inkaa arth kuch nahin nikaltaa. Trimurti Brahma kahne se. Brahma ki math gaayi huyi hai. Shiv ko udaa diya hai. Kahte hain Brahma ut_raa. Ab Brahma toh sookshm_vatan se aakar math deve. Phir chalaa jaave- yah bhi to ho nahin saktaa. Ab tumney yah samjhaa hai. Prajapita Brahma- inko vyakt Brahma kaha jata hai. Tum bhi vyakt braahman ho. Phir tum Avyakt sampoorn braahman bante ho. Phir tum sookshm_vatanvaasi braahman ban jaayenge. Sampoorn Brahma sampoorn Saraswati donon sookshmvatan may vahaan rahte hain. Vishnu toh hai hee yugal. Do bhujaa Lakshmi ki, do bhujaa Narayan ki. Ab yah math to naamigraami hai. BHAGAVAANUVAACH- BRAHMA KO BHI MATH DENEVAALAA SHIV HAI. JISKAA NAAM RAKHAA HAI Trimurti BRAHMA. Vaastav may Trimurti may Brahma bada nahin kahlaa saktaa. Kyonki Brahma hai patit. Inko oonch nahin kahnaa chahiye. Oonch rakhna chahiye Shankar ko. Kyonki vah oopar may rahte hain. Vishnu ke do roop LN phir yahaan aate hain. Dev2 mahadev kaha jata hai. Toh Mahadev ho gaya Shankar. Bachche toh samajhte hain Shiv hai oonch te oonch. Phir sookshmvatan ki rachnaa rachte hain. Mool baath hai srimat par chalna. Brahma bhi srimat par chal itnaa naamigraami banaa. MURABBI EK HEE BRAHMA BACHCHAA HAI. ShivBaba BHI EK HEE HAI. BRAHMA BHEE EK HEE HAI. Prajapita Brahma bhee kaha jata hai na. Prajapita Vishnu va Prajapita Shankar nahin kah sakenge. AB TUM PRAJAPITA BRAHMA KE SAAMNE BAITHAY HO. Baap kahte hain gruhasth vyavahaar may rahte apne ko aatmaa nishchay karo. -83

In this Murli point, Baba says- The first child is the Brahma only. But, Shankar should be kept next to Shiv, because Brahma is impure.

4e) SM 8-3-76(2):- Preranaa akshar wrong hai. Bhal kaha jata hai Shankar Bombs aadi banaane preranaa karte hain. Parantu yah drama may saari noondh hai. Is yagy se hee yah vinaash jwaalaa nikli hai. Preranaa nahin karte hain. Yah to vinaash arth nimitt bane hain. Drama may noondh hai. Kuch karte nahin hain. Baap ne samjhaayaa hai Shankar kaa itnaa part nahin hai. Vah next to Shiv hai. VAH NIMITT BANAA HUVAA HAI BAAP KE OOPAR NA PADE. Kyonki Baap vinaash kaise karaavenge. ISLIYE Shankar KO DIYAA GAYAA HAI. VAASTAV MAY MAHATW ShivBaba KAA HAI. BRAHMA, Vishnu KAA HAI. Shankar KAA KYAA MAHATW RAKHENGE. UNKAA GAAYAN BHI NAHIN HAI. Shankar PURAAN NAHIN. SHIV PURAAN HAI. Shankar kaa roop bhi bhayankar bana diyaa hai. Saamp aadi galey may daal diyaa hai. Shankar ne Parvati ko kathaa sunaayi. Vah bhi baath hai nahin. ShivBaba ka hee saaraa part hai. UNKEY BAAD PHIR PART HAI BRAHMA Vishnu KAA. Brahma dwaaraa braahman rachte hain. Vah hee phir Vishnupuri ke maalik bante hain. -100

= ....The word inspiration is wrong. Of course, it is said that Shankar gives inspiration to prepare bombs, etc, but actually it is fixed in drama. = .... Father has said- there is no much part of Shakar. He is next to Shiv. ....His name is kept so that no accusations can come to Father. How can Father do destruction? So- Shankar is given that name.. In fact there is importance of ShivBaba. There is importance of Brahma and Vishnu. What is the importance of Shankar? There is not even gaayan (praise) of Shankar. There is not even Shankar Puraan. There is Shivpuran…. The whole part is of ShivBaba. Next is of Brahma and Vishnu. Through Brahma, braahmins are created. The same (Brahma or Brahma and braahmins) become/s rulers of Kingdom of Vishnu.

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings

Post by mbbhat » 28 Jan 2016

Continuation:-


5)How many children ShivBaba has?

5a)In some Murlis baba says- I have just one child and it is Brahma.
5b)In some Murlis Baba has said- I have two children, Brahma and Shankar.
5c)In some Murlis Baba says- all the three BVS are my children.
5d)In some Murlis baba says- V and S are not children.

SM 8-9-82(3):- ShivBaba KA BACHCHAA EK BRAHMA HAI. Vishnu, Shankar ko bachchaa nahin kahenge. Kyonki bachche hain toh potra bhi chaahiye na. Is hisaab se Brahma hee bachchaa thah_raa. B so V bante hai. -11 [BVS]


= ShivBaba's child is just one Brahma. Vishnu and Shankar cannot be called as children. Because if there is child, then there should also be grand children. In this calculation/context, just Brahma alone is child. Brahma becomes Vishnu.

As in Conf. Age, it is part of Brahma/creation that begins. So, first child is Brahma. Then it is Shankar/Destruction, which would be in end period of Conf. Age. So, next child is Shankar, Then sustenance/Vishnu in Heaven. So, in the respective contexts, Baba may be speaking so.

Some Murli points ignore subtle Brahma, as if God does not come in him, some say- there is nothing like Subtle Region, there is no part of Shankar, etc. But, baba has also clarified about the role of subtle Brahma, and importance of Subtle Region. - Post No. 50 - http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... heez#p5623 Similarly, as time passes, baba may say more about Shankar.

5e)"Kumarka bataao Baba ko kitney bachhey hain? Koi kahtey hain 500 karor. Koi kahtey ek bachha Brahma hai. Kya Shankar bachha nahee hai? Tab Shankar kiska bachha hai. Yah bhi gunjaaish hai. Mai kahtaa hoon ShivBaba ko doh bachhey hain, kyonki Brahma vah toh Vishnu ban jaatey hain. Baaki raha Shankar, toh doh huay na. Tum Shankar ko kyon chod detey ho? Bhal Trimurti kahtey hain parantu occupation toh alag-alag hai na." (Sakar Murli taareekh 14.05.72, pg 2, ant)


= “Kumarka! tell, how many children does Baba have? Some say 500 crores. Some say there is one child Brahma. Is Shankar not a child? Then whose child is Shankar? This is also a possibility. I say ShivBaba has two children, because as regards Brahma, he becomes Vishnu. Remaining is Shankar. So, there are two (children), are there not? Why do you leave Shankar? Although it is said ‘Trimurti’, but the occupation (of all the three personalities) is different, isn’t it?” (Sakar Murli dated 14.05.72, at the end of pg 2, published by BKs)

5e) • "Kumarka bataao Baba ko kitney bachhey hain? Koi kahtey 600 karor, koi kahtey ek Brahma.....Bhal tum Trimurti kahtey ho parantu occupation toh alag-alag hai na. Vishnu kee naabhi say Brahma niklaa. Brahma kee naabhi say Vishnu, toh ek ho gaye. Vishnu 84 janma letey hain va Brahma baat ek hee hai. Baaki raha Shankar. Aisey toh nahee Shankar so Shiv hota hai. Nahee, Trimurti kahlaya jata hai. Parantu righteous bachhey do huay. Yah sab gyaan kee baatein hain." (Sakar Murli taareekh 15.05.07, pg 3)

= • “Kumarka! tell, how many children does Baba have? Some say 600 crores. Some say there is one Brahma.....Although you say ‘Trimurti’, but the occupation (of all the three personalities) is different, isn’t it? Brahma emerged from the navel (naabhi) of Vishnu. Vishnu emerged from the navel of Brahma. So, they are one. Whether Vishnu takes 84 births or Brahma (takes 84 births) the matter is the same. Remaining is Shankar. It is not that Shankar becomes Shiv. No. It is called Trimurti. But the righteous children are two. All these are matters of knowledge.” (Sakar Murli dated 15.05.07, pg 3,)


5f)AM 1-1-79 or AM 6-12-82(2):- (With Dadiji or Didiji)- Brahma ko yah sankalp kyon uthaa? Inkaa rahasy samajhti ho? Brahma ke sankalp se srushti rachi aur Brahma ke sankalp se hi gate khulega. AB Shankar KOUN HUVAA? YAH BHI GUHY RAHASY HAI. JAB BRAHMA HI Vishnu HAI, TO Shankar KOUN? IS PAR RUH RUHAN KARNAA. Ab toh vardaani moorth group… [Shankar]

= Why Brahma got this thought? Do you know its secret? Through Brahma's thought creation occurs and through Brahma's thought only gate will open. Now, who is Shankar? This is also deep secret. When Brahma himself is Vishnu, who is Shankar? Do spiritual churning on this. ...

6)Both Subtle Brahma and Shankar are said as vinaashakaari:-

There is an Avyakt Murli point which approximately says- " Brahma baap bachchon kaa dukh dekh naheen saktey. Brahma ne sochaa is srushti ko bhasm kar doon. = Father Brahma cannot see sorrows of children, and so thought, shall I destroy the world?"

And, Baba has already said- the needle of time is Brahma. And, Shankar is also needle (as he is the personality for destruction].

7)"Unki atma ka hi naam Shiv hai. Vah, kab badalta nahi. Sharir badalte hai toh naam bhi badal jaate. Jaise Brahma se Shankar, phir Vishnu” mu. 24.1.75

"The name of his soul is Shiv, it never changes. When the body changes, the name also changes. Like from Brahma to Shankar, then Vishnu." mu. 24.1.75

So, I believe subtle Brahma himself is playing role of Shankar. Because baba has said- consider yourself as master trimurtis, Master jagatpita, Master jagadamba. So, when every child can be number-wise Trimurti, obviously B Baba himself is playing the role of Shankar in the first place, then Mama, then children.
But, like Baba says, even though real Jagadamba is B Baba, practically, he does not get that title. It goes to junior mother Mama and she has played that role in drama.Similarly, as baba keeps children in front of him, the role of Shankar may be given for Mama, and since it is said- Shiv Shaktis will reveal baba or hands of Shankar, so Mama may be playing the role of Shankar in a unique way.

8)SPECIALTY OF BRAHMA:-

SM 16-4-87(2):- Brahma dwaraa sthaapanaa toh zaroor yahaan chaahiye. Prajaa yahaan rachte hain. SOOKSHMVATAN MAY TOH AKELAA BRAHMA BAITHAA HAI. RACHNAA RACH POOREE KEE TOH FARISTAA BAN GAYE. Tum ho PPB ke mukhvamshaavali braahman kul bhooshan. -57- [Prajapita, Past tense]

= Brahma ALONE is sitting in Subtle Region. He played role of creation, then became ANGEL. ...

What a great status it is. So, in Subtle Region, practically no other soul actually plays part. Because God needs only one body. So, physically, there will be just Brahma Baba playing role in Subtle Region.
But, all the three deities are shown in Subtle Region. So, I believe it is soul of B Baba who plays all the three roles at first or highest place.

But, again, there is a small confusion here. Baba has said in a Sakar Murli that, Mama went ahead than B Baba. And, it is believed that she attained karmaateet stage by 1965 itself. So, had she attained the subtle stage before B baba? If yes, in that context, she is ahead of B Baba. But, whatever or who ever is on top, it does not matter, as both the beads are considered to be meru/yuga/top beads.
Yet to know, These are just churning.

Other Murli points on Shankar are available(they need to be placed in right order)- Post No. 97 and 98- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... 8b+#p12330

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings

Post by mbbhat » 28 Jan 2016

# Post No. 79) Name Ardh_Naareeshwar [Shankar shown as Half male and half female] also indicates Mama too can play role of Shankar:-

Every personality on Trimurti is shown as played by TWO PERSONALITIES, very well BALANCED.

1)CREATION/BRAHMA:- baba says- Brahma is actually both Father(Prajapita) and Mother(Jagadamba). But, in yaadgaars, Brahma is shown as just Father (Prajapita= Bull), and the title Mother (Jagadamba = Cow) is shown for Mama. [Baba says- Both of them can be called as CREATORS- Post No. 23- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... onon#p4075].

2)SUSTENANCE/Vishnu:- LN are shown in two forms- as Vishnu and MAHALAKSHMI. Both are shown with FOUR hands. In the former, the head is shown as male's and in the latter, the head is shown as female's.

3)DESTRUCTION/Shankar:- Shankar is shown as Ardh_Naareeshwar [Half male and Half female]. From this also, I believe role of Shankar will be played by both Brahma and Saraswathi.

Then all the children number-wise are Master Trimurtis.

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings

Post by sita » 05 Mar 2017

"10 वर्ष से साथ मेँ रहने वले, ध्यान मेँ जाय, मम्मा बाबा को भी ड्रिल कराते थे। हेड होकर बैठते थे। उन मेँ बाबा प्रवेषकर डायरैक्शान देते थे। कितन मर्तब था। मम्मा बाबा भि उन से सिखते थे। आज वह भि हैँ नहीँ। उस समय यह इतना ग्यान नहीँ था।" मु 25.7.67

"The ones who used to live from 10 years, used to ho into trance, used to make even Mama and Baba do the drill. In them Baba used to enter and give direction. Mama dn Baba used to learn from them. Today they are also not there. At that time there was not that much knowledge." mu. 25.7.67

Mbbhat has expressed the view that in this case probably Mama and Baba used to make someone sit in front and narrate the knowledge like a practice. But here it is said that Mama and Baba used to learn from them, so I don't think this explanation works. Mbbhat has also denied the possibility that they will be more powerful/knowledgeful than Mama and Baba, but it is logical that the one who is more knowledgeful will teach the less knowledgeful one.

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Re: Mbbhat's Views and Churnings

Post by mbbhat » 05 Mar 2017

sita wrote:"The ones who used to live from 10 years, used to ho into trance, used to make even Mama and Baba do the drill. In them Baba used to enter and give direction. Mama dn Baba used to learn from them. Today they are also not there. At that time there was not that much knowledge." mu. 25.7.67

Mbbhat has expressed the view that in this case probably Mama and Baba used to make someone sit in front and narrate The Knowledge like a practice. But here it is said that Mama and Baba used to learn from them, so I don't think this explanation works. Mbbhat has also denied the possibility that they will be more powerful/knowledgeful than Mama and Baba,
1) There are three things. You have taken only one third*.
but it is logical that the one who is more knowledgeful will teach the less knowledgeful one.
2) It is ACTUALLY ShivBaba who used to sit in them and teach - (Yes or No?) Or, do you believe that they themselves were teaching out of their own ability? Hence the above claim is silly. But, PBKs like to argue in double standard. They believe Mr. Dixit took course from sister Vedanti, they believe Sakar Vanis are the words from B Baba. Do they argue even here in the same way?

* - Now to the three things-

a) 4)SM 3-9-82(3):- Bhakti bhi saverey uth_kar karte hain. Tum bachchon ko maaloom hai ki Baba ek do baje uth_kar Murli likhte thay jo tum padhkar aur chalaate thay. PHIR Baba BAITH SUNTE THAY KI DEKHEN KAISE CHALAATE HAIN. YAH SAB TOH ShivBaba KI HI KAMAAL THI. KITNEY ACHCHE2 BACHCHE THAY, CHALE GAYE. AAJ HAI NAHIN. Maya ne ekdum shaapit kar diyaa. -5

= "Bhakti is also done in the morning. You know that Baba used to get up at 1 AM, 2 AM and write Murlis which you used to (sit in guddi as teachers) read in the class. Then Baba used to sit and see how children take the class. These all were magic of ShivBaba. How many good children were there, they left. Maya cursed them completely." - this is the one third you have taken.

b) But, baba used to praise children even to motivate and to keep regard. - this is another one third.

SM 24-3-78(1):- Kayi bachche aise bhi hain jo Maa baap se bhi achchaa padhte hain. ShivBaba ki to baath hee oonch thahree. PARANTU Mama Baba SE BHI IS SAMAY HOSHIYAAR BACHCHE HAIN. Bhal sampoorn toh koyi banaa nahin hai. Kuch na kuch kantein bhi lagte hain. Maya ka war hota hai.

= THERE ARE FEW CHILDREN WHO STUDY EVEN BETTER THAN MOTHER AND Father. Shivaba is greatest (uncomparable). BUT, AT PRESENT, THERE ARE CHILDREN WHO ARE MORE CLEVER THAN EVEN Mama AND BABA. Of course, no one has become complete. One or other thorn pricks. The attack of Maya occurs.

It gives a surprise. But, baba has said this for Jagadish Bhaiji. It is a respect as well as motivation.

--SM 8-10-77(1):- Yah Brahma nazdeek hai to kahenge Mama Baba jaasti padhte hain. Phir numberwaar sabhi bachche padhte hain. BHALE HEE BABA KAHTE KI JAGADEESH BACHCHAA Mama BABA SE ACHCHAA SAMAJHTAA HAI. BABA KI Murli PADHKAR DHAARAN KAR PHIR Gita MAGAZINE AADI BANATA HAI. KYONKI YAH SHAASTR PADHAA HUVAA HAI. ANGREZI MAY BHI HOSHIYAAR HAI. TO ISKO KAHA JATA HAI REGARD. STUDENT KO EK DO KA REGARD RAKHNA HAI. BABA BHI TO REGARD RAKHTE HAIN NA. Father ko follow karna chahiye. Bhale hee abhi 16 kala sampoorn to nahin baney hain, numberwaar to hote hee hai na. Koyi na koyi bhooley to sabsey hoti rahti hai. Isliye apney ko miyaa mittu na samajhnaa hai. Jaise karm Baap karte hain main karoongaa. Vah sab muje dekh karege. Aur regard ek do ko rakhna hai. Baba ko bhi regard rakhna padtaa hai. -53 [hoshiyaar, maatpita, number one] [= SM 11-9-82(1)- 14-}

= This Brahma is near, so we say Mama and Baba study best. Then children numberwise. OF COURSE, BABA SAYS- JAGADISH CHILD STUDIES/LEARNS (OR EXPLAINS) BETTER THAN Mama AND BRAHMA. AFTER READING Murli, PREPARES Gita, MAGAZINES, ETC. BECAUSE HE HAD READ SCRIPTURES. HE IS INTELLIGENT EVEN IN English.THIS IS CALLED AS REGARD. STUDENT SHOULD GIVE REGARD TO ONE ANOTHER. BABA ALSO KEEPS REGARD, IS IT NOT? Follow Father. ... everyone should give regard to one another. Even Baba also needs to give (regard for others).

---"बाबा कहते हैं हम समझाते हैं, बाकी लिखने के लिए तो संजय (जगदीश भाई) निमित्त रहे हैं। यह है नम्बरवन मुख्य एक्टर। यह तो बाबा के साथ राइटहैण्ड होना चाहिए। परन्तु ड्रामा की भावी ऐसी है जो इनको देहली में भी रहना होता है। कल्प पहले वाला पार्ट है।" (ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक १७.०२.०८, पृ.२)

"Baba says that I explain (The Knowledge), but for the work of writing Sanjay (Jagdish Bhai) has been nimit (instrument). He is the number one main actor. He should be along with Baba as his right hand. But the Drama is fixed in such a way that he has to live at Delhi also." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 17.02.08, pg.2 ]

The other third is- Baba has clearly said- No one can go ahead than Mama-Baba, their seat is already fixed. Of course, Baba has said- children may try. But, no one has that capacity.
View link - viewtopic.php?f=40&t=1217&start=45#p46843
BKWSU Rev SM dated 13.12.2013 wrote:One should go even higher than Baba & Mama (DLR & OmRadhe). BUT, just as Baba (Supreme Soul Shiva) says that if those TWO Christians (America & Russia) get together, then they can become the Masters of the World, (but this is NOT destined within Drama), there is NO such combination of Soul-Mates (Yugal-Dana) who can emerge, who can go higher than Mother & Father (OmRadhe & DLR). Only the World Mother & World Father (OmRadhe & DLR) are renowned; others will not be able to perform service like THESE. THESE have become instrumental, hence do not be dis-heartened. OK, even if others cannot become like Mama & Baba (OmRadhe & DLR), they can yet come into the second number. Everything depends on Service!
ALL THESE ISSUES HAVE ALREADY BEEN DEALT WITH EARLIER, A NUMBER OF TIMES, ON THIS FORUM, BUT THE BLIND PBKs ARE SIMPLY UNABLE TO REGISTER SAME WITHIN THEIR ADULTERATED & CORRUPTED INTELLECTS, AND CONTINUE TO ARGUE - LIKE - MY COCK STILL HAS THREE LEGS!

Baba has NOT certified those children - whom PBKs say those who had been in Yagya for the 5/10 years as number one and two - like, Baba has DECLARED for Mama - B Baba.
The Murli point clearly says- they had entered into stomach of python. So- the PBK argument has very low value. Mr. Dixit just tried to take advantage of the situation, by twisting the points.
Why was PBK Sewak Ram THROWN OUT of the Yagya in 1942 by Drama? Why was PBK guru -Virendra Dev Dixit THROWN OUT of the Indra Sabha, in/after 1969? He was not even aware of his own ACTUAL DOB; and are PBKs aware of the ACTUAL DOB of Sr Vedanti? They may state same here. They JUST BLINDLY believe WHATEVER is TOLD to them by their bodily guru, THAT's ALL! How can -Virendra Dev Dixit be considered to be the PERMANENT Chariot of God, when he was OUT of the Yagya for a PROLONGED PERIOD in the Confluence Age? He is STILL OUT of the Yagya, having been THROWN OUT of the Indra Sabha, earlier. Do PBKs at least TRY to understand these CRITICAL ISSUES, AT ALL??? Or they feel happy and content, to remain intoxicated with the alcohol of the interpretations of knowledge, based on the scriptures and memorials of Bhaktimarg?

More Murli points- in Post No. 12 to 14 - http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... t=10#p4063

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