Conversation between Divine Ones and Divine Mother Radhe

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
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Conversation between Divine Ones and Divine Mother Radhe

Post by fluffy bunny » 27 Mar 2008

Excuse the delay, but this has been very, very hard work! It has been like transcribing a mad person talk with all the constant, obsessive repetitions. From 1942, a "Conversation between Divine Ones and Divine Mother Radhe in The Premises of Imperishable Divine Yagya".

I enclose only two scans to prove that it is real and to reproduce images used. The original is in the British Library. BKs, go see it if you must but don't destroy or take it away to be buried with the rest, please. As ever, the reproduction is as accurate as the software on this forum allows, the spacing, the crazy capitalization, the multiple exclamation marks etc are pretty damned accurate to the count, except for where the original contains double underlines. The "I.C.S." they mention is the 'Indian Civil Service entrance examination' which was a big whiz back in those days as the British were just opening up the bureaucracy to Indians as the Empire was crumbling and too many fine middle class boys were being shot dead by Jerry at that time.

1942 and there is no mention of Shiva at all, its all about Divine Father Lekhraj Kirpalani as Brahma the Gita Inventor and not Sree Krishna. Note also that "humans are higher than God" and that the Indian Congress Party and Europeans come in for their usual tongue lashing.

It is actually red ink on yellow paper. Other pages are, here. I think I have one more to go ...
Lekhraj Kirpalani, Om Radhe and the Brahma-Kumaris wrote:
Avinash Gyan Yagya-Camp
P.O.Box 381
Karachi,3rd.September, 1942.

No.162
'THE EVER-REVOLVING WHEEL OF THE ETERNAL CREATIVE PLAY,
CONSISTING OF FOUR EPOCHS AND FOUR CASTES,
WHICH TAKES FIVE THOUSAND YEARS
TO COMPLETE ONE ROTATION".
... ... ... ...

brahma-kumari-devils.jpg
brahma-kumari-devils.jpg (32.13 KiB) Viewed 4037 times
CONVERSATION
BETWEEN
DIVINE ONES and DIVINE MOTHER RADHE
In The Premises
of
IMPERISHABLE DIVINE Yagya
...
Question:- MOTHER DIVINE, who creates this huge, Ever-Revolving World Bioscope consisting of four epochs, viz, Sat-Yuga(Golden Age), Treta(Silver Age), Dwapur(Copper Age) and Kali-Yuga(Iron Age), and four castes, viz. Brahma n, Kshetriya, Vaisha and Shudra, which takes a Kalpa to 5000 years to complete one rotation, and when?

Answer:- Dear Divine Ones of Divine Father PRAJAPATI BRAHMA, although you have already comprehended the essence of these most esoteric facts through Divine Wisdom and Divine Insight, no doubt ,more and still more esoteric points are being revealed to you and to me through the grace of our beloved Divine Father PRAJAPATI BRAHMA, the Gita Inventor, as it happened a Kalpa ago at the identical juncture of the end of Kali-Yuga and the beginning of Sat-Yuga.

Question :- Is there anyone who could visualise, realise and comprehend Divine Light (i.e. Incorporeal God) as well as the entire Creative Play from end to end, and also reveal and explain the same to others?

Answer:- Certainly, yes.
Question:- Oh Dear Mother Divine, the Sustainer of this entire Divine Yagya through Divine Wisdom and Divine Insight, will you tell us who that could be?

Answer:- You,me and our Divine Father.
Question:- Who,then, is superior - God or a human being?

Answer:- Doubtless, a Human Being! Who else couild ever reveal and manifest BRAHM, TATTWA, BRAHMAND and the Divine Secrets of this entire Creative Play? Who could establish Brahm-Puri (Angelic World) and lead others there but for a human being?

Question:-Atheistic, Self-Unrealised, Vicious Vaisha and Shudras consider God superior to themselves.

Answer:- No doubt; but Theistic, Viceless Brahmins and KSHETRIYAS, firm believers in "Aham Brahm Asmi", as well as Viceless Parmahans Sanyasis, firm believers in "Aham Brahm" shall never admit superiority of Incorporeal God over Self Realised Human Beings.

Question:-What is the essential difference between Brahmins and Kshetriyas of "Aham Brahm Asmi" Faith and Parmahans Sanyasis of "Aham Brahm" Faith?

Answer:- The outstanding peculiarity, according to the Preordained Plan of the Creative Play, of the Dynasty of Brahmins and Kshetriyas believing in "Aham Brahm Asmi" lies in the fact that they acquire Jiwan Mukt life for numerous generations and enjoy the everlasting, undisturbed, Supreme Sovereignty of Brahm-Puri(Angelic World or the World of Supreme Celibacy, Peace, Law and Order) with Double Crown (Crown of Divine Light as well as bejewelled Crown of Kingship) throughout the epochs of Sat-Yuga and Treta by following the most direct path of Sahaj Yoga, Raj Yoga, Nishkam Karma Yoga Sanyas at the present time of the confluence of the Kalpa. The other Dynasty of Parmahans Sanyasis, having faith in the doctrine of "Aham Brahm", enjoys superiority over Vaishas and Shudras through out the epochs of Dwapur and Kali-Yuga by adhering to the path of Hath Yoga Karma Sanyas. That is why such Parhmahans Sanyasis, Viceless and believers in "Aham Brahm" are they are, earn reverence, adoration and even service from vicious and sensuous Vaisha and Shudra Grahsti Tatoos(Householders), the latter being non-believers in "Aham Brahm".

I shall now divulge further upon the question of Superiority of a Human Being over God, and shall also discuss the question as to who laid the fondation of Brahm-Puri(Angelic World) - PRAJAPATI BRAHMA or SREE Krishna

These are questions of vital importance about which everyone, from king to the beggar is puzzled, unacquainted and unenlightened. Aha! Approach of annihilation perverts human mentality!

Now listen. Let us take up once more the example of the ordinary picture play. "LIGHT" is of prime importance here and the "FILM" comes next. But neither is Light praised by the public nor does the Film itself attract much attention. It is really the activity if the various human actors, prominent among whom are the HERO and the HEROINE, that earns the admiration of the spectators.

Let us now, therefore, concentrate upon the HUMAN BEINGS of the entire World Bioscope and find out the HERO and the HEROINE, of the WORLD CREATIVE PLAY.

This has been, for long, quite a puzzling problem of the world, and for the matter of that, very esoteric indeed, so much so that all the Vedam Puranas, Bible, Quran, Granth, Shastras and their compilers Veda-Vadi and Shastra-Vadi Vidvans, Acharyas, Pundits, Priests and Preceptors, not even excluding Sanyasis, Popes and Bishops, Mulas and Kazis, &c., &c., on the one hand and Science Proud European Yadavas and Bharatvasi Kansas, Jarasandhis, Kaurvas(Congress) and all the rest on the other hand are definitely ignorant so far as this question is concerned.

The entire world believes, and therefore votes in favour of the Most Attractive, Fully Accomplished Kalgidhar or Chhapatrapati SREE Krishna, complete with Sixteen Celetrial Attributes(whose birthday "Janma Ashtmi" is being celebrated today) as the Supreme Imparter of Imperishable Wisdom of Gita, the Divine Flute, the Crown Jewel of all the World Scriptures.

But dear PRAJAPATI BRAHMA-KUMARIS and KUMARS, all of you have your personal experience, gained through Divine Wisdom and Divine Insight corroborated by the authority of the revelations of Gita and Bhagwat, to support you in your open declaration that the Divine Personality who played the Flute of Imperishable Divine Wisdom of Gita incarnating at the time of confluence of the end of Kali-Yuga and the beginning of Sat-Yuga,or in other words, at the conjunction of the cessation and the progression of the Kalpa, for the purpose of the annihilation of Unrighteousness and the establishment of the one Original Eternal religion of "AHAM BRAHM ASMI" is the DIVINE Father PRAJAPATI BRAHMA, THE Gita INVENTOR, THE IMPARTER OF IMPERISHABLE WISDOM AND THE BESTOWER OF DIVINE INSIGHT,
and
NOT SREE Krishna!!!!!!
The Divine Prince, Kalgidhar Sree Krishna , with whom, of course, you so frequently play the Divine Dance and enjoy the most marvellous music of the richly bejewelled flute while in Divine Trance, is really born in the beginning of Sat-Yuga in Brahm-Puri(Angelic World) and not at the end of Kali-Yuga and the beginning of Sat-Yuga.

Aha! Oh Divine Children of PRAJAPATI BRAHMA, you have luckily taken birth at the junction of Shudra-Puri or Kali-Yuga and Brahm-Puri(Angelic World) or Sat-Yuga, and are due to soon transmigrate into Sat-Yuga or Brahm-Puri(Angelic World) after complete annihilation of Kali-Yuga or Shudra-Puri, even as the rivers concludee their long dirty course at the junction of the sea, and after due to purification, merge themselves in the sea. No one else is so fortunate as you are, Oh dear Divine Ones of the Divine Father! You alone possess the power of acquiring the Sovereignty of TRILOKI (the entire world) by virtue of the waging of the non-violent war of "MAN MANA BHAVA, MADHYAJI BHAVA" (concentrating full attention upon SELF).

"TRILOKI" has always been defined by foolish SELF-IGNORANT, atheistic, Veda-vadi Vidvans, Acharyas, Pandits and even by Science Proud European Yadvas, as the Universe consisting of Three Worlds, viz. Heaven above, Devil's World or Hell below and suspended in between the two the Human World! All this is simply manufactured nonsense!

As a matter of fact, there is only one huge stage for this huge Human World Bioscope - THIS EARTH, used as the Field of Action where the entire World Performance takes place. The Sky simply stands like a roof with the Sun, the Moon and the Stars serving as the head-lights of this huge stage. There is no world above or world below where human beings reside. And you have visualised through Divine Insight and realised through Divine Wisdom all the most esoteric facts of this Creative Play. What you are now waiting to see still in practical is only the remaining portion of this Mahabharat War, yet to be acted, which too, however, you have not failed to foresee through Divine Insight. Even a Kalpa ago, the Divine Father manifested to His Divine Ones the entire scence of the ensuing annihilation of Yadvas and Kauravas(Congress) through Divine Insight quite well in advance, and assured them that destruction was a preordained part of the Creative Play and that He and His Divine Ones were simply instrumental for action.

It is natural law that visualisation comes first and them comes realisation and explanation. Accordingly, you have visualised the entire secret of Brahm-Puri(Angelic World) well in advance, and then only have you been able to solve and understand these Eternal Problems so conveniently. The test is that if you had not visualised all these ensuing scenes of the War of Mahabharata beforehand, you would never have been able to issue Divine Decrees and Warnings quite ahead of the time, assuring the World in unmistakable terms of the ensuing catastrophe of the present World War as the War of Mahabharat and about the transformation of Kali-Yuga into Sat-Yuga!

Question:- How is it that the various Divine Dynasties such as the Brahm an Deity Dynasty(Angelic Dynasty, Islamic Dynasty, Buddhist Dynasty, Christian Dynasty, &c., &c., emerge or come into existence from time to time, and again all of them get merged or annihilated?

Answer:- Dear Divine Ones, casting a glance at the physical map of the entire world, we find that there are several rivers in different parts of the world, all of which end their course in the sea. Some of them are big while others are small; and accordingly, the area of land irrigated and made fertile by the waters of each, is found in like proportions. Likewise, as depicted in the Preordained Plan of the World Wheel, the various dynasties, established at different times, spread their sovereignty and power over proportionate portions of the world according to their Divine Power, and ultimately get annihilated and merged simultaneously into unbounded Divine Light.

Each of these outstanding Dynasties is founded by its Divine Father through the Divine Power of His Non-Violent Sabre of Imperishable Divine Wisdom, and as a rule, all the Dunasties get completely annihilated at the time of the end of the Kalpa through the Satanic Power of the Violent Steel Sword and through various natural calamities.

Let me now illustrate the comparison of the rivers with the dynasties on the black board and explain to you fully:
brahma-kumaris-religions.jpg
brahma-kumaris-religions.jpg (75.53 KiB) Viewed 4052 times
Now according to the above diagram which depicts the working of the ETERNAL CREATIVE PLAY very accurately, it can be explained through personal experience gained after acquiring Divine Insight that each one of those Divine Dynasties has chiefly to pass through four stages, viz.BRAHM AN or Golden Stage, KSHETRIYA or Silver Stage, VAISHA of Copper Stage and Shudra or Iron Stage.

To make it more clear, here is the definition of all these terms: a BRAHMAN is a human being who maintains undaunted faith in "Aham Brahm Asmi" or "Aham Brahm" through his Divine Father and in consequence,turns to be perfectly viceless. A human being who wages non-violent war to maintain faith in "Aham Brahm Asmi" or "Aham Brahm" is called a KSHETRIYA. Human beings who neither have faith in "Aham Brahm Asmi" or "Aham Brahm" and are hence vicious and sensuous, are called among Vaishas and Shudras.

It must be noted that there is Supreme Celibacy and Perfect Peace, Law and Order during the first half of the total period of existence of each Dynasty, because during that period, the caretakers and custodians of each Dynasty are Self-Realised "Defenders of Faith". As soon as (during the latter half) they all turn Self-unrealised and atheistic (Undefenders of Faith),they cause the storms of Irreligiousness and Unrighteousness which ultimately brings about the downfall and ultimate annihilation of the Dynasties. And this destruction, as depicted in the above illustration, comes but once at the end of every Kalpa for all the Dynasties since established.

This, Pleasure and Pain, Happiness and Sorrow, Victory and Defeat for equal periods of time and in equal proportion, which is the basic principle and Universal Law of the Creative Play,is applicable to every dynasty. During the first part, every Dynasty enjoys Heavenly Happiness through the Light of Divine Wisdom, and then follows an era of Hellish sorrows and sufferings, degradation and destitution for the rest half by its adherence to the dark path of Devotion.

It is a fact worth nothing that those DIvine Fathers who, along with their Divine Ones, maintain faith only in "Aham Brahm"(not in "Aham Brahm Asmi") have no foreknoweldge that they ahve become instrumental for establishing a Divine Dynasty of their own, because they declare that "Maya" is simply an illusions, and due to their faith in "Aham Brahm"(I am God), they believe that if they turn out to be viceless, they will, after relinquishing their present name and form, merge into JOTI TATTWA(Infinite Divine Light), and thus be ever afterwards free from birth and death. But our most valuable experience gained through Divine Wisdom and Divine Insight along with the support of shastras shows that such a thing does not happen at all. There are future births for them all, during which, from generation to generation, they become instrumental, though the Sovereigns of those Dynasties, for the progress and upkeep and also ultimately for the final annihilation of their own respective dynasties.

There is only one Divine Father, however, and that is Divine Father PRAJAPATI BRAHMA, the Gita INVENTOR, the Imparter of Imperishable Wisdom and the Bestower of Divine Insight, in whose case and in the case of those Divine Ones, it can be said with certainty that all facts and figures of future Brahm-Puri (Angelic World) and their future Brahm an Deity Dynasty (for the establishment of which they become instrumental) are foreknown to them through the power of their faith in "Aham Brahm Asmi" (I am GOD Eternal and My Maya is also Eternal). They even visualise various scences and sights of ensuing Brahm-Puri (Angelic WOrld or Vaikunth) in advance and understand them thoroughly well through Divine Insight and Imperishable Wisdom. Not only all this, but in addition to that, they have Power Divine to relaise and foretell facts about the beginning, the continuance and the end of every other Dynasty that ever exists under the sun.

This most Supreme Brahm an Deity Dynasty with faith in "Aham Brahm Asmi" can well be compared with the highest of all the examinations, viz.I.C.S., or the highest of all the mountains of the world, viz. The Himalayas. Certainly, it can not be denied that one who passes the test of I.C.S. possesses knowledge of all the subservient examinations. Similarly, the most Supreme Divine Father PRAJAPATI BRAHMA, the Gita INVENTOR and His Divine Ones, the founders of the Brahm-an Deity Dynasty, alone possess full knowledge about all the other subservient Dynasties. No other Divine Father could possess this knowledge and hence, we find no such indication in any other Divine Father's biography.

It is also a fact, however, that as much dignified, adored and worshipped as this Brahm an Deity Dynasty is, it turns to be equally undignified, slavish, destitute and downtrodden through the path of Devotion at the time of its downfall and final annihilation as compared with other Dynasties, so that ultimately, the very name of the Inventor,Divine Father PRAJAPATI BRAHMA,of this Dynasty along with His highest Divine Knowledge gets obliterated from the minds of the people.

It is important to note here that this world never envisages DELUGE. It has been explained t you already that really speaking, every human being automatically merges everything in "SELF" at night during sleep, creates his creation as soon as he opens his eyes and sustains it during the day. In short, every human being is virtually BRAHMA, Vishnu, Shankar.

Dear Divine Ones, it is only you who can explain all these esoteric facts of Divine Wisdom through these Divine Decrees, but the unfortunate ones are not able to evaluate these Supreme Gems, since they have not acquired Divine Insight from this "Hospital" of Imperishable Divine Wisdom.

Question:- But Dear Mother Divine, will these Self-ignorant, Self-unrealised Kansas, Jarasandhis, Kauravas(Congress) and other slave Bharatvasis, ensnared as they are by strong attachment of Maya, staggering in the obscurity of unwisdom, engaged in a life-and-death struggle for hoarding transitory triflings and above all damning themselves in the deep sea of sensual poison, wake up from their Kumbhakaran-like slumber of Self-ignorance?

Answer:- Their case is not entirely hopeless. If only these downtrodden, destitute, Self-unrealised Bharatvasis were to divert their attention just for a week's time from their unbecoming lust for the filthy coin, concentrate their entire intellect upon the practical happenings of 5000 years or a Kalpa ago and compare the War of Mahabharat of those days with the present World War, and in addition, focus their entire brain power upon these Divine Decrees in perfect solitude, there is certainly a chance that they might rise from their deep slumber!

Question:- Will they rise at all?

Answer:- Well, it can be said through Divine Insight that they certainly will, at last, but not till they breathe their last on their bed of Annihilation, as it happened a Kalpa ago; but then, it will be too late because Divine Father PRAJAPATI BRAHMA has Himself ordained, "One who maintains constant contact with ME, and who, after due concentration of intellect upon SELF (Man Mana Bhava, Madhyaji Bhava), addresses himself entirely to the task of rendering the highest Divine Service under MY guidance, will ultimately enjoy along with ME for numerous generations the Sovereignty of Vaikunth of BRAHM-PURI (Angelic World).
In Divine Service

BRAHMA-KUMARIS
Divine Daughters
of
Divine Father, the Gita Inventor,

PRAJAPATI BRAHMA
The Imparter of Imperishable Wisdom
The Bestower of Divine Insight.
[/color]

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in the night
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Re: Conversation between Divine Ones and Divine Mother Radhe

Post by in the night » 28 Mar 2008

Thank you indeed for posting these valuable texts. Assuming that they are authentic, BKs, and PBKs would see it necessary to explain why "Radhe" forgot to mention about Shiva, and what about when she talks about having faith in: and quote: "I am God Eternal and My Maya is also Eternal". Sounds a bit different from the current bk, or pbk manual.

I personally like the simplicity of the class. Especially, when she compares a day in our lives to "brahma, Vishnu and Shankar".

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Re: Conversation between Divine Ones and Divine Mother Radhe

Post by fluffy bunny » 28 Mar 2008

in the night wrote:Quote: "I am God Eternal and My Maya is also Eternal" ... Especially, when she compares a day in our lives to "Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar".
I promise you they are genuine. I just cannot stomach the effort required to scan them all in which is why there are only two pages. They are printed on foolscap paper and so they are too long to scan in one A4 scan and too expensive to have done professionally. They are part of the India Office Collection at the British Library and there are more elsewhere that I am tracking down. I did not want to say where because I was afraid the BKs would "disappear them" like other inconvenient media (fact).

Its funny but I picked up on both the parts you underlined. There is a lot of "I am God". And I am surprised by the "human beings are better than God" bit. Quite frankly, it starts to make it all sound quite Luciferic if you have ever read up on Rudolf Steiner's writings on Luciferic influences. The latter (Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar) goes even further to suggest we each create our own reality when we wake up ... that it does not exist when we are asleep. That is pretty funky too. "I am God Eternal and My Maya is also Eternal". "My Maya is also Eternal" sounds more like Christopher Lee, frightening little children and doing an impersonation of Satan (... Bwahahahah!) what does that mean?

The important issue though is why did the leadership cover these all up, why are they still promoting a false history to their followers (Adi Dev), why are the silence over all these matters? In one topic it was reported that at some point the Seniors were all "sworn to secrecy". We do not, of course, know what the secrecy is. I have asked whether it is about all this ... or more to come. In another topic, john, I and other took to pieces another biography (Vishwa Ratan) and discovered it was full of false and misleading statements. The plot thickens.

As an interesting twist, in "Spotlights on Purity, Knowledge & Raja Yoga " by Jagdish Chander. On page 52 Chander is describing the Sadhus in India who worship Shiva-linga and avow that the self is Shiva as "vainglorious".
Jagdish Chander wrote:Shivoham, Shivoham" - this aphorism forms the foundation on which their whole belief is built up. But what a ramshackle faith it is! It is like a man contradicting his own words by his own practical acts. But pity is that the people who are slaves to blind faith, offer obeisance to these puffed up Gurus ... and thus, these Gurus become instrumental for deflecting the mind of men and women from ... the Supreme Soul"
Now, what do the Brahma-kumaris teach us? 1936 ... Lekhraj Kirpalani ... red eyes, possessed by God, a voice booming out ... "Shivoham, Shivoham". So where did he disappear after that? What a ramshackle faith it is. The PBKs basically agree that from the Murlis there is no evidence to support the BK version. In my opinion, like with so many latter additions, it has been taken from Hinduism and added to embellish the story by followers, to hide the truth of the events.

One of the observations that PBKs make is that amongst the BKs, certain types are the Sanyasis that are so criticised in the Murlis. That the criticism is meant WITHIN the family not WITHOUT it. I am not a PBK, so you will have to check in with them over all this.
brahma-kumari-gurus.jpg
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They also write;
BKWSU wrote:It must be noted that there is Supreme Celibacy and Perfect Peace, Law and Order during the first half of the total period of existence of each Dynasty, because during that period, the caretakers and custodians of each Dynasty are Self-Realised "Defenders of Faith"
Well, that is rubbish as anyone that has read the Bible will tell you. There is more than enough rape and pillage before we even make it to the New Testament (i.e. after Christ) and one of Christ's follower was a whore!

Another question is
Brahmakumaris wrote:"TRILOKI" (Three Worlds) has always been defined by foolish SELF-IGNORANT, atheistic, Veda-vadi Vidvans, Acharyas, Pandits and even by Science Proud European Yadvas, as the Universe consisting of Three Worlds, viz. Heaven above, Devil's World or Hell below and suspended in between the two the Human World! All this is simply manufactured nonsense!

That is not true either ... so what the hell were they going on about? I guess it is a fine thing when all you have is a closed community of uneducated women and children, that you have split from their families and taken financial responsibility for, tripping out on psychic visions. You can spout what you like, how can they tell or why should they care about its veracity?

Yes, it raises question for the PBKs too ... where was their Sevakram at this time and what influence was he having? There may be yet a whole new hidden chapter that the BKWSU are keeping silent about. Janki was involved by this time ... has her memory failed her so much she cannot remember? They know we post here ... what are they saying to their faithful?

We are bad, bitter, hurt, mad people ... for digging out the truth?

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A Message of Divine Wisdom

Post by fluffy bunny » 29 Mar 2008

This appears to be only a partial excerpt of a complete message but it is all that I have.

It starts with the same hand drawn image of the Swastika/Kalpa wheel above.
Lekhraj Kirpalani, Om Radhe and the Brahma-Kumaris wrote:
Avinash Gyan Yagya-Camp
P.O.Box 381
Karachi,3rd.September, 1942.

No.162
'THE EVER-REVOLVING WHEEL OF THE ETERNAL CREATIVE PLAY,
CONSISTING OF FOUR EPOCHS AND FOUR CASTES,
WHICH TAKES FIVE THOUSAND YEARS
TO COMPLETE ONE ROTATION".
... ... ... ...
A MESSAGE OF DIVINE WISDOM.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...


Two kinds of WARS are recognised in thie Eternal Automatic World Bioscope which repeats itself after every Kalpa or 5000 years. The one is INTERNAL, Individual, Non-Violent or HOLY WAR waged by various Divine Fathers, the Self-Realised Sovereigns of Infinite Realms, which is very significantly depicted in religious scriptures like Gita, Quran, Bible &c., and the other is EXTERNAL, Violent, UNHOLY WAR waged by undivine, Self-unrealised Sovereigns of some finite realms, with the help of armaments etc . Such Wars are quite elaborate described in Historical Books.

It has been found at this time of extreme Decay of Righteousness and Mulitplicity of Irreligious that the rein-holders of every so-called religion - Preceptors and Priest, Mulas and Kazis, Popes and Archbishops &c., - are out only to instigate and encourage Kings and Queens, Rajas and Ranis, Dictators, Presidents, Leaders and the Public to undertake the task of fighting violent, unholy wars. They allege that according to the commandment of all the Divine Fathers, it is the bounded duty of every human being to fight for the security and upkeep of his religion.

Aha, what a pity! These self-unrealised, undivine, atheistic, Kali-Yugi Preceptors and Priests, Mulas and Kazis, Popes and Archbishops, &c., have not at all understood and relaised what they Divine Words,"WAR OF RELIGION", stand for. Rest assured, Divine Father have neither taught or encourages violent wars, nor have they ever preached in favour of prayers, idol-worship or the worship of Five Elements. True, it is to say, "VINASH KALAY VIPREET BUDHI"(Perverted mentality foreshadows destruction). The perverted guidance of the present day preceptors etc., on the path of violent wars sceptical mentality among their blind followers and automatically drags everyone, from a king down to a man in the street, to self annihilation in the PRAJAWALIT AGNI(The vast conflagration) of the War of Mahabharat emanating from the DIVINE Yagya of Imperishable Wisdom of Divine Father, the Gita Author, PRAJAPATI BRAHMA, the imparter of Imperishable Wisdom and the Bestower of Divine Insight. Let it not be mistaken that the Initiative of the present War of Mahabharat and the Master Key of its Victory lies only in the hands of now UNKNOWN MAHARATHI DIVINE WARRIORS, who are in the future very WELL-KNOWN DEITIES of ANGELIC WORLD. All this is preordained in the Plan of the Ever Revolving Wheel of the Creative Play.

According to the experience gained through DIvine Wisdom and DIvine Insight corroborated by the Shastras, one can easily arrive at the conclusion that Divine Father, the Gita Author, PRAJAPATI BRAHMA(Not Sri Krishna) who incarnated on this Kuru-Kshetra(World) at the time of the confluence of the end and the beginning of the Kalpa, founded His Divine Dynasty of Angelic Human Beings(Brahma n Deities) by establishing His own faith as well as the faith of His Divine Ones.

[ ... page or lines missing ... ]

... some few important events and circumstances that have happened on this Kuru-Kshetra(World) in practical life at some time or the other. Playwrights, historians and movelists expand the original, practical life history of some important personages of events, details of which are very scarely acquired from some rare and old literature and monuments excavated or otherwise found after a long time from the natural extinction and demolition of the original practical circumstances, by adding a great deal of their own imaginary counterfeit stuff - imaginary names and forms, houses and palaces, villages and towns, scences and sights, and even their imaginary versions of what those ancient people said and did. The result is the stuff that we get in history, literature and picture plays which have presented to the world ever since the age of Dwapur till today, the very original real story, admixed with 95% imaginative extra nonsense.

Most glaring examples of such literature and history are the present day Gita, Bhagwat, Mahabharat, Ramayan, &c., &c., which really contain 95% unbelievable balderdash composed and presented so cleverly and effectively with all the artistic touches of the real and the original in the form of Ancient History, Ancient Literature and Ancient Picture Plays, that the entire human race is found, at this critical juncture, gaping aghast in the wilderness of Self ignorance on account of having been turned completely atheistic.

Aha! Dear Divine Ones, the most esoteric facts abut the real and practical ancient (and our future) life are being realised and visualised by you alone with the help of Divine Wisdom and Divine Insight. Day by day.

[ ... page or lines missing ... ]
Om Radhe herself wrote:*)OM.(*

GEET.

Nanush ka kya, martaba, kyun koi nahin samjhavata.
(What is man's sublimity, why none explains).

Ishwar khud ap manava, kyan koi nahin hai manta.
(Man himself is God. why no one believes).

Ishwar ka bap,manava, kyun koi nahin hai janta.
(Man is God's Father, why no one knows).

Manush tan adhar sen khud Ishwar hin bolta.
(God himself speaks with with the help of a human form).

Bigar manava vairat srishti ka ant koi nahin kholta.
(Excepting man no one explains the mystery of Manifest Creation).

Ishwar kis ko nahin kabi marta jilavata.
(God never kills or vivifies anyone).

Ishwar khud manush tan lay onborta kabi charta.
(God himself takes the human form and again relinquishes it).

Sat, Treta, Dwapur, Kali-Yuga film la palta chakkar.
(Sat, Treta, Dwapur and Kali-Yuga are in the revolving wheel of the Creative Play).

Brahman, Kshetri, Vaishya, Shudra, nam khud hai dharvata.
(Brahman, Kshetriya, Vaishya and Shudra. God himself passes through these stages).

Veda Shastra, Granth, aur masjid, tikanay, marhi mandir.
(Vedas, Shastras, Granth, and mosques, temples, shrines and churches).

Manush kay ye karma sabh, kabi, pborta aur banavata.
(These are all man's actions, some times he makes hem and some times he breaks them).

Bigar kshetra swayam Brahm karta kabi kuchi bhi nahin.
(Without the Field or body, Brahm does not do anything).

Kshetra Kshetraya Yoga sen sabhi bolta aur nahin.
(Without the union of the Field and the Knower of the Field, all go about and speak).

Brahm hun kahita hai manava, dharta nahin nij par iman.
("I am Brahm", says man, but has no faith in Self).

Moh nija Maya men phas khud hin ko hai bharmavata.
(Entangles in his own Creation, he himself becomes Atheistic).

Gyan bin mahutaji manava ki kabi jati nahin.
(Without Divine Wisdom, servitude of man never ends).

Aham Brahmasmi nischai Swaraj Pooran pavata.
(One attains Complete Self-Rule only through firm faith in "Aham Brahm Asmi").

Om Shanti

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Re: Conversation between Divine Ones and Divine Mother Radhe

Post by andrey » 29 Mar 2008

It is not something new that the knowledge changes. In the beginning, the knowledge of the soul being a point of light was not there. That's why it is not correct whatever the BKs say in the films they have prepared that Brahma Baba had visions of the point of light. In the Murli, it is said that vision of point of light is not cause, because if someone has vision of a point of light he will not understand anything. The idea about the soul being a point of light had been brought up by Mama based on churning of Gita etc.
BKs, and PBKs would see it necessary to explain why "Radhe" forgot to mention about Shiva
If you see the PBk literature, it is said that Murlis has started through Brahma Baba in 51.

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Re: Conversation between Divine Ones and Divine Mother Radhe

Post by fluffy bunny » 29 Mar 2008

I have never seen the PBK literature but that timing must be about right and also right for many revisions.

Of course, there is no mention of it in the BK literature, is there? It astonishes me because the revisions were so huge and earth shattering for the BKs, e.g. NOT Brahma but a Shiva too! The still alive ones like Janki and so on must remember it too ... They never told us anything about it nor how it came about, nothing about other mediums leaving and so on (they say Janki's faimly was involved in that). When we asked them about how they remembered Baba in the beginning, we would just get vague embarrassed answers.

This also confirms what the PBKs say about there being a cover up. Why does the BKWSU still sell the same old books mythologising the fake history?

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Re: Conversation between Divine Ones and Divine Mother Radhe

Post by alladin » 30 Mar 2008

Just a little taste of an article I found on the web as I googled for "Selective memory" . From;
Selective Memory and a Dishonest Doctrine by Noam Chomsky in The Toronto Star, December 21, 2003
Noam Chomsky wrote:Selective Memory and a Dishonest Doctrine

All people who have any concern for human rights, justice and integrity should be overjoyed by the capture of Saddam Hussein, and should be awaiting a fair trial for him by an international tribunal.

An indictment of Saddam's atrocities would include not only his slaughter and gassing of Kurds in 1988 but also, rather crucially, his massacre of the Shiite rebels who might have overthrown him in 1991.

At the time, Washington and its allies held the "strikingly unanimous view (that) whatever the sins of the Iraqi leader, he offered the West and the region a better hope for his country's stability than did those who have suffered his repression," reported Alan Cowell in the New York Times.

Last December, Jack Straw, Britain's foreign secretary, released a dossier of Saddam's crimes drawn almost entirely from the period of firm U.S.-British support of Saddam. With the usual display of moral integrity, Straw's report and Washington's reaction overlooked that support.

Such practices reflect a trap deeply rooted in the intellectual culture generally – a trap sometimes called "the doctrine of change of course," invoked in the United States every two or three years. The content of the doctrine is: "Yes, in the past we did some wrong things because of innocence or inadvertence. But now that's all over, so let's not waste anymore time on this boring, stale stuff."

The doctrine is dishonest and cowardly, but it does have advantages: It protects us from the danger of understanding what is happening before our eyes.
...
As BKs, we are actually constantly immersed in a river where the current changes direction and nobody warns us. It embarrassingly happened to Raja Yoga teachers, that some teaching policies (content, of courses, when, if and how is it appropriate to inform new students about principles and lifestyle, rules about admission to Madhuban and to Baba's meetings) have changed with no official info about it. So, different people were teaching differently at different centers! Some are keener on passing on Gyan in a more traditional, undiluted way, without distortions, add ups or removals. But in the in the light of the documents shown on this Forum, what is the original knowledge? The whole era of service in the west is well post-alterations and concealment.
ex-l wrote:The still alive ones like Janki and so on must remember it too ...
and this made me wonder about selective memory.

SS, the very same ones that Baba (according to the English translation) calls nothing less than "great souls" in the 18.03 Murli, narrated many stories over the years, but in a "selective" way. According to which criteria? Grandmothers want to hide away the dirty old laundry from children?

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Re: Conversation between Divine Ones and Divine Mother Radhe

Post by fluffy bunny » 30 Mar 2008

"Pah! Chomsky ... what does he know ... unself-realised, undivine, Crow Race Jarasandhi, born of a Kans, engagor of sensual poison ... he is probably just an Iron Aged Shudra having his one birth Golden Age at the Fag End of the Kalpa ... a bodily guru speaking 95% imaginative extra nonsense who is doomed like the rest of them unless ( ... he is a famous VIP and we can invite him to Abu or ... ) he takes the 7 Day course."

Ooops ... sorry guys, for a moment I was channelling the spirit of Eve, Mama, Om Radhe etc there. I am back now, it is me, ex-l. Honest.

My question remains the same ... here we are, and there they are reading all this ... it is all out in the open now ... they are still pumping out the Adi Devs and a fake version ... what is going on?

Do they think that if they just ignore us we will go away or that Destruction is going to come and save them? BK Indian does not care because it is a Western problem, their "subjects" are too poor to afford internet connection or uneducated to understand. What is going on in the West? Are they trying to work out how to incorporate it all gently to ensure they keep their position or working out an excuse? I bet a few are already using elements of all these to increase their status.

Or am I entirely wrong and it really just does not matter ... "it is still my Baba".

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Re: Conversation between Divine Ones and Divine Mother Radhe

Post by fluffy bunny » 30 Mar 2008

Back on topic ...

Did anyone else notice the early Brahma-kumaris talking about the Brahm-Puri (or Angelic World) meaning what would now be understood as the Golden Age? Above and elsewhere.
Om Radhe wrote:Who could establish Brahm-Puri (Angelic World) and lead others there but for a human being?

... they acquire Jiwan Mukt life for numerous generations and enjoy the everlasting, undisturbed, Supreme Sovereignty of Brahm-Puri(Angelic World or the World of Supreme Celibacy, Peace, Law and Order) with Double Crown (Crown of Divine Light as well as bejewelled Crown of Kingship).

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Re: Conversation between Divine Ones and Divine Mother Radhe

Post by arjun » 30 Mar 2008

ex-l wrote:There is a lot of "I am God". And I am surprised by the "human beings are better than God" bit.
I too am quite surprised. But given to understand that the early BKs considered Dada Lekhraj Prajapati Brahma to be God, the above should not be a cause for surprise.
Did anyone else notice the early Brahma-Kumaris talking about the Brahm-Puri (or Angelic World) meaning what would now be understood as the Golden Age? Above and elsewhere.
I think the reason for the early BKs to name Golden Age as Brahmpuri instead of Vishnupuri (as mentioned frequently in the Murlis) is the same as mentioned above, i.e. their belief about Prajapati Brahma (Dada Lekhraj) to be God. In the early days of the Yagya or even till the demise of Brahma Baba, the BKs were under the impression that Brahma would guide them to heaven in practical, but when he left suddenly they started building heaven for themselves which is visible in the form of their real estate worldwide.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Conversation between Divine Ones and Divine Mother Radhe

Post by in the night » 31 Mar 2008

What seems to be unfolding here, is that the early Yagya was experiencing something different from what they are officialy claiming happened. It is not a small thing seen from a bk (or ex-BK) perspective! Among other ideas, one is what BKs disagree with the most; "We are all God".

OK, PBKs say that "Shiva" was not present in "Dada Lekhraj" until later on, but how was Shiva then involved with the kumaris?? As it seems, "radhe" already knew a lot about the cycle, and other bk principles.

In any case, "SS" present at that time could be questioned by their own creation.

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