False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by Sach_Khand » 03 May 2011

Roy wrote: I used the word balances, not disagrees. Murli points in isolation, can give a false impression of their meaning, imo. Thus, i feel, the point i quoted, gives a more balanced view, of what Shivsena's point actually means.
That can balance the other way round also, which according to me seems more balanced.
Roy wrote: What are the subtle bodies, of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shankar, in the Subtle Regions for? Imo, these subtle deities, correspond to the three different levels of vision, one can experience. Gyani experience, in Brahma puri? Golden Age experience, in Vishnu puri; and experience of Nirakar stage, in Shankar puri. All very lovely, but of no use in the practical sense, where remembrance of ShivBaba, and churning of Gyan, is the only method to gain your inheritance.

Roy
To experience those you need to have them. They are not fantasies of our mind neither are they visions given by ShivBaba. They are experiences of everyone who is on his/her path back Home.
And I think that ther is not actual Nirakari experience in ShankarPuri, but that is the maximum a human soul can experience on his/her own purusharth. Experience of actual Nirakari stage is possible only when The Actual Nirakari Shiv comes in practical and comes in contact with us here.

This churning of gyaan is good, but should be unbiased and with open mind without our prejudices and we can only progress based on our experiences not just hearsay.

:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by Roy » 03 May 2011

Sach_Khand wrote:This churning of gyaan is good, but should be unbiased and with open mind without our prejudices and we can only progress based on our experiences not just hearsay.
I agree with you to a point, but we all have bias; which is our opinion, based on current understanding and faith!

Roy

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by Sach_Khand » 03 May 2011

arjun wrote: The Murli point quoted by shivsena Bhai does not mean that Brahma, Vishnu Shankar do not have physical bodies. It only proves that their intellect does not think of physical bodies when they are revealed to the world as BVS. Otherwise, why would He narrate the following Murli points which prove that BVS take birth along with Shiv in the corporeal world?

“You must prove – ocean of knowledge, purifier of the sinful, bestower of true salvation upon everyone is Trimurti Supreme Father Supreme Soul Shiv. The birth of Brahma-Vishnu-Shankar is together. It is not just Shivjayanti (birthday of Shiv) but Trimurti Shivjayanti (birthday of Trinity Shiv). ... Those who do not possess The Knowledge of Father creator and the creation are ignorant, isn’t it? They are sleeping in the slumber of ignorance.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 3.10.05, page 3 published by BKs)
The above point nowwhere says that There are no subtle BVS.
In my opinion, the above point means that BVS are created by Shiv together and not with the creation of Brahmins of this world. Why just subtle BVS created together, even Brahmins should be created with them atleast Prajapita Brahma and eight or 108 special ones.
The above point clearly states that only subtle BVS are cerated together and when this point is tallied with the point which says that Shiv first creates the subtle creation of BVS and then of this world, my opinion holds good.
Coming to Trimurti Shiv Jayanti and not just Shiv Jayanti:
In my opinion it means that Shiv does not play His part of changing or transforming this world without his assistant subtle BVS. According to me subtle BVS have nothing to do directly with humanity and this world, but are created to govern the whole Universe and are under direct control of Shiv. This is the reason it is said that if you ask Shankar, you cannot ask, but just suppose you ask him "Whose body is this" then he (sublte Shankar of Subtle Region) will reply that it is mine.
If Virendra Dev Dixit is the Shankar that is mentioned in the above point, then can we not ask Virendra Dev Dixit about even his gross body of this world and about his subtle body?

:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by Sach_Khand » 03 May 2011

Roy wrote: Nice try Shivsena Bhai; but imo, it is only in the Bhakti-marg of the broad drama, that Lord Shiva or Shiv-Shankar are believed to be one soul. AK clearly teaches, that Shiv and Shankar are two separate souls; Shankar(Baba Dixit) is churning knowledge, and so is a Subtle Region dweller, and even in a body, ShivBaba remains in the nirakari stage, ever soul conscious. Where ShivBaba says.... "it cannot be said that Shiv enters Shankar, like you say Shiv-Shankar...who told you that Shiv-Shankar are one" ... he means, His soul cannot enter that of Shankar's, to form one soul, as this is impossible, and only in the Bhakti marg of the broad drama, would that be thought to be the case.

Actually, Brahma becomes Vishnu. Shankar is called Dev-Dev-Mahadev because Shankar is next to Shiva. Brahma and Vishnu take rebirth, but Shankar doesn't. ShivBaba is subtle. Similarly Shankar is also subtle. [Mu 29-9-77]

Shankar is next to Shiva, but doesn't take re-birth; yet Brahma and Vishnu do? How can Subtle Region deities take re-birth, if they were never born into physical bodies in the first place? ShivBaba can create subtle deities through the power of visions; but he cannot create souls, to play the parts in Subtle deities, stuck in the Subtle Regions. Who are these Subtle Region dwellers, and what do they actually do in the practical, to be remembered in Bhakti Marg?

Destruction is going to take place through Shankar. Then there will be the reign of Vishnu. [Mu 22-01-78]
Shankar's part is to be played practically. [Av 1-10-71]


Oh, and by the way; the reason Shankar(Baba Dixit) doesn't take re-birth, like Brahma and Vishnu; is because he goes on to play the role of Sangamyugi Narayan, after receiving the full inheritance from ShivBaba, in the very same birth he made spiritual efforts, to become bapsaman. Brahma so Vishnu(DL), will have to wait until his next birth in the Golden Age, to receive his.

Roy
Just check out how is your tone and language. Challenging or not challenging? They are not challenging without those extra comments that are underlined.
Not challenging if you just give your opinion.
And you have written that you have not even done bhatti but seem very confident and well read about the AIVV theory.

:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by Sach_Khand » 03 May 2011

arjun wrote: When there is no Subtle Region as such, how can there be any Brahma there? All Brahmas are working in this world either through their physical body or through their subtle body.
So what did Virendra Dev Dixit mean when he used to repeat the Murli point "Main sukshmavatanvasi Brahma dwara pravesh naheen karta hoon" and "Prajapita to Yahan hona chahiye" (words might be slightly different). The subtle Brahma was said to be coming in Madhuban to tell Avyakt Vanis. And Virendra Dev Dixit said that it was not Shiv who comes in Gulzar Dadi, but subtle Brahma which is the reason for the jerk in the body of Dadi when enterance occurs into that body and Dadai loses her consciousness. How is all that explanation of Virendra Dev Dixit explained now if you say that there is no subtle Brahma?

:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by Roy » 03 May 2011

Sach_Khand wrote:According to me subtle BVS have nothing to do directly with humanity and this world, but are created to govern the whole Universe and are under direct control of Shiv
If I am honest Bhai, this seems like Bhakti to me!
Sach_Khand wrote:it is said that if you ask Shankar, you cannot ask, but just suppose you ask him "Whose body is this" then he (sublte Shankar of Subtle Region) will reply that it is mine.
Shankar's name is also based upon his body. Soul is just a soul. There is a soul in him also. But names are given to the bodies, like Vishnu and Shankar. Nobody tells, "O soul! Come here". [ Mu.23.3.76]

If there is a soul in Shankar, then this cannot be the subtle creation of ShivBaba, because He can only create visions, not souls!

If you ask Shankar; you cannot ask; but suppose you go to the Subtle Region and ask him, he will say “this subtle body is mine”. ShivBaba says, “this body is not mine”. I have taken this (body) on loan. [Mu 16-4-71]

My feeling is that these points are pointing out that Shankar, the soul, has a body of his own(ownership denotes an owner- the soul). ShivBaba, has no body of His own, so must use the bodies of souls like Shankar, to perform His tasks.

Roy

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by Roy » 03 May 2011

Sach_Khand wrote:Just check out how is your tone and language. Challenging or not challenging? They are not challenging without those extra comments that are underlined.Not challenging if you just give your opinion.And you have written that you have not even done bhatti but seem very confident and well read about the AIVV theory.
I think my tone and language is quite challenging at times. I have no problem with you being challenging either; but i feel that what you think is discussion, i feel is more like debate at times; that's all I am saying! My opinions are mostly open churning. This is all pretty new to me, and quite exciting! :D

Roy

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by arjun » 03 May 2011

sachkhand wrote:In my opinion, the above point means that BVS are created by Shiv together and not with the creation of Brahmins of this world. Why just subtle BVS created together, even Brahmins should be created with them atleast Prajapita Brahma and eight or 108 special ones.
The above point clearly states that only subtle BVS are cerated together and when this point is tallied with the point which says that Shiv first creates the subtle creation of BVS and then of this world, my opinion holds good.
The Murli point that I quoted talks about the revelation-like birth of Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar in this Confluence Age along with Shankar on this world stage and not in the Subtle Region. However, the above member is free to think that BVS are just subtle beings.
So what did Veerendra Dev Dixit mean when he used to repeat the Murli point "Main sukshmavatanvasi Brahma dwara pravesh naheen karta hoon" and "Prajapita to Yahan hona chahiye" (words might be slightly different). The subtle Brahma was said to be coming in Madhuban to tell Avyakt Vanis. And Veerendra Dev Dixit said that it was not Shiv who comes in Gulzar Dadi, but subtle Brahma which is the reason for the jerk in the body of Dadi when enterance occurs into that body and Dadai loses her consciousness. How is all that explanation of Veerendra Dev Dixit explained now if you say that there is no subtle Brahma?
I had written that Baba says that Subtle Region does not exist. I did not say that subtle bodied Brahma (Dada Lekhraj) does not exist.
roy wrote:Shankar's name is also based upon his body. Soul is just a soul. There is a soul in him also. But names are given to the bodies, like Vishnu and Shankar. Nobody tells, "O soul! Come here". [ Mu.23.3.76]

If there is a soul in Shankar, then this cannot be the subtle creation of ShivBaba, because He can only create visions, not souls!

If you ask Shankar; you cannot ask; but suppose you go to the Subtle Region and ask him, he will say “this subtle body is mine”. ShivBaba says, “this body is not mine”. I have taken this (body) on loan. [Mu 16-4-71]

My feeling is that these points are pointing out that Shankar, the soul, has a body of his own(ownership denotes an owner- the soul). ShivBaba, has no body of His own, so must use the bodies of souls like Shankar, to perform His tasks.
Good and relevant points Bhai. In fact I wanted to quote the same points, but lack of time prevented me to search for the same. Thanks for saving my time.

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by Roy » 03 May 2011

arjun wrote:Thanks for saving my time.
My pleasure Bhai! :D

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by shivsena » 03 May 2011

Roy wrote:
We could go on like this all day Shivsena Bhai; but the truth is, PBKs do not think Shiv and Shankar are one, they are very clear about the distinction. If Baba is referring to the behad ka family, then it is the BKs that are making this mistake, not the PBKs, imo. BKs do not know of the practical part of Shankar, and believe he is in the Subtle Region, doing goodness knows what! The fact that they think Shankar is a subtle deity(with no soul; as Father Shiv cannot create souls, only visions); could well be why they mix up Shiv and Shankar, subconsciously; even if they are not actually voicing this opinion openly!

Hadn’t Shankar existed(in practical form), they wouldn’t have combined us with Shankar. [26.06.76 and 16.02.73]

Shankar is also a deity. But they have combined Shiva and Shankar. Now the Father says, ‘I have entered into this body.’ Therefore, you say BapDada, but they say Shiv-Shankar. They will not say Shankar-Shiv. They say Shiv-Shankar. [11-2-75, 25.02.00]

Roy
Dear roy Bhai.

The irony of the whole Godly knowledge is that BKs are desperately trying to prove to the outside world that shiv and Shankar are different (as per Murli point: Shiv is nirakar--dweller of Paramdham and Shankar is devta--dweller of Subtle Region)....while PBKs are doing just the opposite...they are gathering dubious Murli points which remotely can be interpreted in a way that point to shiv-Shankar being the same....while potential 108 will try to prove to both that it is only Mama jagdamba who will be the personified form of shiv to be revealed as Bharat-mataa shiv-shakti avataar in future.....so as per Murlis, there are 3 opinions (mat) in the Godly family: Yadav mat ie.BKs....kaurav mat ie. PBKs.....and pandav(108) ki mat ...all the mats are different and it remains to be seen whose mat is right and in what form is Godshivbaba going to be revealed to the world.

shivsena.

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by arjun » 04 May 2011

shivsena wrote:while PBKs are doing just the opposite...they are gathering dubious Murli points which remotely can be interpreted in a way that point to Shiv-Shankar being the same
Please do not spread lies.

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by Roy » 04 May 2011

arjun wrote:Please do not spread lies.
Dear Shivsena Bhai

I have to agree with Arjun Bhai; your use of language is such, that it muddies the water, and distorts the truth in your favour. You will say, of course, that the PBKs do the same! :D

Roy

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by shivsena » 05 May 2011

Roy wrote: Dear Shivsena Bhai.
I have to agree with Arjun Bhai; your use of language is such, that it muddies the water, and distorts the truth in your favour. You will say, of course, that the PBKs do the same!
Roy
Dear roy Bhai.

This blame game is going on for many decades....the outside world blames the BKs(9 lacs) for distorting the Hindu religious scriptures...the BKs blame the PBKs(16000) for twisting the Murli points and misleading the BKs.....the PBKs in turn will blame those souls(108) who try to prove that advance knowledge is jhooti Gita....this is going on perfectly as per drama plan.....so who is going to be the judge...only the Murli and Vani points and the individual intellect.

Quoting a very rare point from Murlis : (19-8-08):
"Tum bacchon ka Gyan naa samje Hindu aur naa samje musalman."
[The knowledge of you children(108) will not be understood by Hindus(bharatwasis PBKs) and Muslims.(BKs)"]

This very rare point of Murli has to be understood in it proper perspective before we blame others for twisting Murli points.....the knowledge of BKs( ie. shiv is bindi and Chariot is DL) is understood by students of all religions(9 lacs) of the world.....the knowledge of PBKs( ie. shiv is bindi and Chariot is VD) is also understood by many Hindus--Muslims--christians(16000) etc etc.....BUT THE KNOWLEDGE OF NO. 1 SHIVSHAKTI(Mama) as THE YARTHARTH ROOP OF ShivBaba WILL NEVER BE UNDERSTOOD BY ANY OTHER SOUL(except 108), ESPECIALLY THE BEHAD KA Hindus(PBKs) AND BEHAD KA MUSALMAN(BKs) will never understand....SO I FEEL THAT IN THE ABOVE Murli POINT, Shiva IS CLEARLY EMERGING ONLY THE 108 CHILDREN AND ADDRESSING THEM AS "TUM BACCHON KA Gyan".

PLEASE THINK ABOUT THE POINT DEEPLY.(and share your views about the point)
shivsena.

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by pbkindiana » 06 May 2011

shivsena wrote"
The Knowledge of PBKs( ie. Shiv is bindi and Chariot is VD) is also understood by many Hindus--Muslims--christians(16000) etc etc
AV. 6.12.1976 -- "Incorporeal Godfather cannot do any work without corporeal Father, He cannot play any role."

So base on you propagating your fairy godmother, it indicates Christianity as fairies are worshipped only in Christianity and not in hinduism. Moreover Shiva is establishing the ancient deity religion and not the farishta religion.

So again just speculation without hard facts.

indie.

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by Roy » 06 May 2011

pbkindiana wrote:AV. 6.12.1976 -- "Incorporeal Godfather cannot do any work without corporeal Father, He cannot play any role."
Great point!
shivsena wrote:The knowledge of you children will not be understood by Hindus and Muslims."
I think this may simply mean; that the knowledge will not be understood; by those souls who remain in bondage to, or under the influence of, their Bhakti sanskars.

Roy

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