BKWSU and AIVV teach omnipresence of God.

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shivsena
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Re: BKWSU and AIVV teach omnipresence of God.

Post by shivsena » 04 Mar 2011

Dear roy Bhai and pbk brothers.

Sharing an interesting Murli point 14-1-2000 :

" Bap ne mantra diya hai ki mujhe yatharth Yaad karo, aise nahin ki shiv-shiv bait simro.... shiv ke Bhagat aise shiv-shiv ki mala japte hai...shiv-shiv kahene se vikarma thode hi vinash honge.....koi kitna bhi shiv-shiv bait kahe, vikarma vinash nahin honge....yeh sab hai Bhakti -marg ki samagri."
Translation:
[ The Father says that remember my personified form, just do not chant shiv-shiv(bindi)... the bhagats(BKs-PBKs of behad ka drama) of shiv(bindi) keep on remembering shiv-shiv (bindi form)...remembering shiv(bindi) will not burn your sins, no matter how much you remember shiv (bindi)...All these are Bhakti-marg practices."]

The above Murli point clearly says that remembering only the incorporeal form of shiv(whether in Paramdham or in the Chariot) is not going to burn any sins, but you have to remember the yatharth personified form of Father shiv.(no. 1 shivshakti) to burn the sins and get inheritance.

The above point also hints that remembering shiv in incorporeal form is doing the subtle shooting of omnipresence of God shiv. (because rememberence is not accurate.)

shivsena.

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Re: BKWSU and AIVV teach omnipresence of God.

Post by Roy » 04 Mar 2011

shivsena wrote:" Bap ne mantra diya hai ki mujhe yatharth Yaad karo, aise nahin ki shiv-shiv bait simro.... shiv ke Bhagat aise shiv-shiv ki mala japte hai...shiv-shiv kahene se vikarma thode hi vinash honge.....koi kitna bhi shiv-shiv bait kahe, vikarma vinash nahin honge....yeh sab hai Bhakti -marg ki samagri."
Translation:
[ The Father says that remember my personified form, just do not chant shiv-shiv(bindi)... the bhagats(BKs-PBKs of behad ka drama) of shiv(bindi) keep on remembering shiv-shiv (bindi form)...remembering shiv(bindi) will not burn your sins, no matter how much you remember shiv (bindi)...All these are Bhakti-marg practices."]

The above Murli point clearly says that remembering only the incorporeal form of shiv(whether in Paramdham or in the Chariot) is not going to burn any sins, but you have to remember the yatharth personified form of Father shiv.(no. 1 shivshakti) to burn the sins and get inheritance.

The above point also hints that remembering shiv in incorporeal form is doing the subtle shooting of omnipresence of God shiv. (because rememberence is not accurate.
Great Murli point Shivsena Bhai, and it explains why am as sinful now as when i entered Gyan in 1985! :D

However, there is the question of what is the personified form of Shiv. Doesn't the word personified, imply that we are talking about a human form or person here, not a subtle, invisible, non-personified form, that it seems only you can realte to.

MU. 30/6/75. --- "How can Father talk without a body? How can He hear? When the soul has a body, then only it can hear and speak. Father says, if I don't have organs, how can I hear or see or speak."

MU. 23/9/87. --- "How can I explain knowledge without the aid of the corporeal medium. In this no inspiration is at all involved. I am sitting here in the form of the teacher."

MU. 8/8/05. --- "ShivBaba also says that I speak through this body. Otherwise how will I come. My birth is divine. I come and sit beside him, where the soul resides."

MU. 1/1/77. --- "God Shiva is incorporeal; you can love Him only through a corporeal body."


Roy

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Re: BKWSU and AIVV teach omnipresence of God.

Post by arjun » 04 Mar 2011

shivsena wrote:The above Murli point clearly says that remembering only the incorporeal form of Shiv(whether in Paramdham or in the Chariot) is not going to burn any sins, but you have to remember the yatharth personified form of Father Shiv.(no. 1 shivshakti) to burn the sins and get inheritance.
Are you not remembering the soul of late Mama in the thin air? When the person does not exist how can it be a personified form? The choice of words itself is absolutely wrong.

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Re: BKWSU and AIVV teach omnipresence of God.

Post by shivsena » 05 Mar 2011

Roy wrote:
However, there is the question of what is the personified form of Shiv. Doesn't the word personified, imply that we are talking about a human form or person here, not a subtle, invisible, non-personified form, that it seems only you can realte to.
Roy
Dear roy Bhai.

Good question....the whole exam is to identify the yartharth personified roop of shiv and have connection with him....the confusion arises when we think that human Chariot is the personified form.....IMO, the personified form of ShivBaba is not a invisible form (bindi) or the human Chariot (DL or VD)....but it is the light and might form ie. subtle angelic body of Mama(no. 1 shivshakti)

I see the whole thing this way:
ShivBaba is remembered as point of light-nirakar by majority of BKs....those who remember nirakar shiv in Paramdham without the Chariot DL are tatwa gyanis according to Murlis and are sanyasis who are trying to merge themselves in the brahma-tatwa....so imo, those who remember shivbindi in some imaginary Paramdham will have to leave the body.....on the other hand those who remember shiv in the Chariot DL will become ordinary praja(9 lacs) as they remembered shiv in the Chariot(body) and considered DL(prajapita brahma) to be personified shiv.

Again imo, those PBKs who remember shiv in the body of VD will be in 16000, as they considered VD(prajapita brahma) to be the personified shiv.

Last but not the least, almost all avaykt Vanis direct us to have avaykt milan with avaykt brahma to become avaykt karmatit farishta (who i believe is Mama and not DL)....so imo, only those who remember the avaykt form of brahma(Mama)as farishta (body of light and might) will come in 108 as i believe that avaykt Mama is the personified form of shiv.

My definition of personified-yatharth form of shiv is the angelic divine mother Mama who has a body of light and might in Subtle Region, and not any human Chariot(DL or VD) as i firmly believe that if one has to become farishta, then one has to follow no. 1 farishta and not any deh-dhari manushya guru....those who remember VD or DL will become devta and not farishta.(i believe that farishtas get the title of messengers of God Shiva and not devtas).

So before understanding who is the personified form of shiv, one also has to understand who are destined to become farishtas and who are going to become devtas....if this is not understood, then the personified form can never be recognised and there will be attachment only to the Chariot....so attachment to which form(subtle angelic body or Chariot) is the key for final selection.

shivsena.

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Re: BKWSU and AIVV teach omnipresence of God.

Post by Roy » 06 Mar 2011

shivsena wrote:Good question....the whole exam is to identify the yartharth personified roop of shiv and have connection with him....the confusion arises when we think that human Chariot is the personified form.....IMO, the personified form of ShivBaba is not a invisible form (bindi) or the human Chariot (DL or VD)....but it is the light and might form ie. subtle angelic body of Mama(no. 1 shivshakti)
Dear Shivsena Bhai

I respect that you have your own views on this matter, but may i ask you just to consider this one thing. In the Golden and Siver Ages(Heaven), what sort of relationships will we have? They will be soul conscious won't they! However, although they are soul conscious relationships, we will all be corporeal(bodily) beings or Deities; but our drishti(vision) will be pure, we will be aware of and focus on the soul that resides within the corporeal body; we will love the soul, not the body, the body is regarded as the vehicle or Chariot of the soul. Of course, this won't be a practise like it is in Sangamyug, it will now be a sanskar with no effort involved. So how is this accurate sanskar developed in Sangamyug, what is the no 1 practise, that enables us to achieve this state in the Golden and Silver Ages. Imo, it is the remembrance of Shiv, in the body of Baba Dixit(Ram). This is why ShivBaba(Shiv in corporeal Ram) tells us not to remember him as just a bindi(Shiv). The no 1 teaching in Raj Yoga, is Manmanabhav(remember me alone); so this practise, needs to be the main exercise or means, to develop the correct and accurate sanskars for Heaven... this is one of the reasons i believe your theory is flawed... remembering a subtle Angel who doesn't reside in a physical costume, is not going to develop accurate sanskars for living in Heaven. Imo, this also adds greater weight to the argument, that Father Shiv has to be in corporeal form, right up until the end; so that we may continue to develop the correct sanskars, via our remembrance of Him, right up until the "too late board" is raised.

Roy

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Re: BKWSU and AIVV teach omnipresence of God.

Post by shivsena » 06 Mar 2011

Roy wrote:
Imo, it is the remembrance of Shiv, in the body of Baba Dixit(Ram). This is why ShivBaba(Shiv in corporeal Ram) tells us not to remember him as just a bindi(Shiv). The no 1 teaching in Raj Yoga, is Manmanabhav(remember me alone);
Roy
Dear roy Bhai.

Has shiv in corporeal Ram(Baba dixit) anytime given this direction directly that remember shiv in him....Baba dixit never speaks in first person...he always speaks in third person...when ever he quotes from Murlis, he always says: Baba has said this in Murlis(whom does shiv call BABA...if shiv is speaking through Baba Dixit, why cannot shiv say that i have spoken this in Murlis and why cannot shiv say "remember me alone" through the body of Baba dixit (as he said through the body of DL.)...in Murlis it is said: i speak (sanmukh)directly to children...if shiv is directly in front of PBKs why has he to speak in third person....this is what i cannot understand.....his speaking in third person is complicating matters and not simplying the study.

shivsena.

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Re: BKWSU and AIVV teach omnipresence of God.

Post by shivsena » 06 Mar 2011

arjun wrote:
Are you not remembering the soul of late Mama in the thin air? When the person does not exist how can it be a personified form? The choice of words itself is absolutely wrong.
When my bodily parents(mother and Father) leave the body , how do i remember them ?....do i remember them as a souls(bindi) or do i emerge their same body and remember them.... similarly the main test in Godly knowledge is to recognise your combined spiritual parents and from the study of Murlis/Vanis i have come to a 100% nischay that Mama is AlaF--Ram's soul(no 1 shivshakti always combined with shiv and so they are my combined spiritual parents mata-pita) and as per Murlis Mama has become a pure farishta(angel)...so can i not emerge Mama as a body of light and might and remember her as my angelic divine mother(personified ShivBaba)....PBKs can remember a body of flesh and bones sitting at home...so why i cannot remember Mama as body of light sitting at home. ("ghar baite bhagwan mila").

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Re: BKWSU and AIVV teach omnipresence of God.

Post by arjun » 06 Mar 2011

shivsena wrote:if Shiv is directly in front of PBKs why has he to speak in third person
Did Mama declare through Brahma Baba from 1947 to 1965 that although it is the body of Dada Lekhraj but it is me narrating the Murlis through him. Or did she declare after her death that it is not Brahma Baba but Mama's soul narrating Murlis through Dada Lekhraj's body or has she declared through Gulzar Dadi that it is Mama's soul who is narrating Avyakt Vanis? Then why do you want only Shiv to speak in first person through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit? Is it not double standards?
shivsena wrote:When my bodily parents(mother and Father) leave the body , how do i remember them ?....do i remember them as a souls(bindi) or do i emerge their same body and remember them
I am sorry your example is not at all relevant. In your case you have received physical birth and sustenance from your parents due to which it is easy for you to remember even after they left their bodies. Others cannot accept your parents as their parents, either lokik or alokik. But what in case of Mama only a handful of souls received alokik birth and throughout her life she asked children to remember Shiv Baba through Brahma Baba's body and not her own body. So, how can the billions of souls who haven't see her accept her as their Father? Baba has said that each and every living human soul will accept that his Baba has come. Now don't repeat your same old arguement that only 108 will recognize her in angelic form. Please answer only if you have a new point to offer.
Thanks in advance.

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Re: BKWSU and AIVV teach omnipresence of God.

Post by Roy » 07 Mar 2011

arjun wrote:Did Mama declare through Brahma Baba from 1947 to 1965 that although it is the body of Dada Lekhraj but it is me narrating the Murlis through him. Or did she declare after her death that it is not Brahma Baba but Mama's soul narrating Murlis through Dada Lekhraj's body or has she declared through Gulzar Dadi that it is Mama's soul who is narrating Avyakt Vanis? Then why do you want only Shiv to speak in first person through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit? Is it not double standards?
Good point Arjun Bhai!
arjun wrote:I am sorry your example is not at all relevant. In your case you have received physical birth and sustenance from your parents due to which it is easy for you to remember even after they left their bodies. Others cannot accept your parents as their parents, either lokik or alokik. But what in case of Mama only a handful of souls received alokik birth and throughout her life she asked children to remember Shiv Baba through Brahma Baba's body and not her own body. So, how can the billions of souls who haven't see her accept her as their Father? Baba has said that each and every living human soul will accept that his Baba has come. Now don't repeat your same old arguement that only 108 will recognize her in angelic form. Please answer only if you have a new point to offer.
Thanks in advance.
Again, this is an excellent point; plus, if Baba Dixit were playing Ravan(how anyone would knowingly or intentionally play this part is beyond me), there is no way imo, that Father Shiv would use his costume at the end, to reveal Himself to the world. Imo, logic dictates, that He will use the costume of the soul, who is His greatest and most loyal child; there has to be consisitency for Gyan to have value.

Roy

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Re: BKWSU and AIVV teach omnipresence of God.

Post by shivsena » 07 Mar 2011

Roy wrote:
Again, this is an excellent point; plus, if Baba Dixit were playing Ravan(how anyone would knowingly or intentionally play this part is beyond me), there is no way imo, that Father Shiv would use his costume at the end, to reveal Himself to the world. Imo, logic dictates, that He will use the costume of the soul, who is His greatest and most loyal child; there has to be consisitency for Gyan to have value.Roy
Dear roy Bhai.

Baba Dixit(Krishna) is the the first rachna(creation) of creator ShivBaba and his first loyal child....and after reading all Murlis he has identified and recognised his part as "Bharat" and as per Murlis Bharat has to become 100% corrupt at the end of Kaliyugi shooting...and so baba dixit invented a false corrupted Gita, so that he could perfectly play his part and be loyal to what is mentioned in Murlis.

Also it is said in Murlis: "Bharat mein hi Ram rajya and Bharat mein hi Ravan-rajya" and "Bap Bharat mein hi aate hain" and "Bap ko Ravan-rajya mein hi aana padta hai."["Bharat is the center of Ravan-rajya and Ram-rajya...Father comes only in Bharat...Father comes in Ravan-rajya.]
The above Murli points clearly describe that there is some chaitanya(personified) Ravan Rajya where Father shiv will come in future when that soul will become 100% Ravan-rajya in the behad ka sense.
shivsena.

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Re: BKWSU and AIVV teach omnipresence of God.

Post by Roy » 07 Mar 2011

shivsena wrote:Baba Dixit(Krishna) is the the first rachna(creation) of creator ShivBaba and his first loyal child....and after reading all Murlis he has identified and recognised his part as "Bharat" and as per Murlis Bharat has to become 100% corrupt at the end of Kaliyugi shooting...and so baba dixit invented a false corrupted Gita, so that he could perfectly play his part and be loyal to what is mentioned in Murlis.
Dear Shivsena Bhai

I can see where you are coming from with this theory; but to think that Baba Dixit would read Murlis, and then come to the conclusion, that ShivBaba wants him to play the part of Ravan, and purposely become even more corrupt over a period of many years, is a little bizarre imo. So what is the shooting period in the Confluence Age, for Baba Dixit's part in the Broad Drama. Well, like all effort maker souls, Baba Dixit(Shankar), passes through sato, rajo, and tamopradhan stages, in relation to intoxication and efforts during the Confluence Age, due to the opposition of Maya(five vices within us). These stages are not gross stages of purity and impurity; so that when Baba Dixit is in his tamopradhan stage, towards the end of the Confluence Age, before revelation; it means he is facing his toughest opposition yet from Maya, before eventually achieving complete victory of the nirakar or bodiless stage i.e. complete soul consciousness. So, it is the battle with Maya becoming more and more fierce, that removes intoxication, the more powerful in remembrance and understanding we become; and this is why it is a "subtle" tamopradhan stage, not a "gross" one. It is said in AK, Maya only interferes in remembrance(Yoga). Therefore, imo, it is these subtle decreasing stages of intoxication, that are a result of having to face ever increasing opposition from Maya, that are the shooting of our gross loss of intoxication(or increasing sorrow) due to Maya(ever increasing body consciousness), in the broad Drama of 5000 years.

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.p ... 15_Revised... "You souls are brothers and have become children of the one Father. Those who have faith in the intellect are numberwise. In worldly relationship you always have the faith that you are going to receive your inheritance from your Father. Here, Maya repeatedly turns your face away from the Father. You belong to the Almighty Authority Father and so Maya too, as an almighty authority, fights with you. This is the war of gaining victory over the five vices. The war is very well known, but there is nothing like the Kauravas and Pandavas that they have shown in the scriptures. This war with Ravan is very fierce. We souls want to stay in remembrance of the Father and become complete and pure. There is no other way than Yoga."
shivsena wrote:Also it is said in Murlis: "Bharat mein hi Ram rajya and Bharat mein hi Ravan-rajya" and "Bap Bharat mein hi aate hain" and "Bap ko Ravan-rajya mein hi aana padta hai."["Bharat is the center of Ravan-rajya and Ram-rajya...Father comes only in Bharat...Father comes in Ravan-rajya.]
The above Murli points clearly describe that there is some chaitanya(personified) Ravan Rajya where Father shiv will come in future when that soul will become 100% Ravan-rajya in the behad ka sense.
I think this Murli point is saying that Shiv enters Baba Dixit(Bharat), during the shooting of Ravan-rajya, which is being played out in the BK Yagya at this time, when the leftist souls have seized power, following Mama's and Brahma Baba's deaths.

Roy

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Re: BKWSU and AIVV teach omnipresence of God.

Post by shivsena » 11 Mar 2011

Roy wrote:
I think this Murli point is saying that Shiv enters Baba Dixit(Bharat), during the shooting of Ravan-rajya, which is being played out in the BK Yagya at this time, when the leftist souls have seized power, following Mama's and Brahma Baba's deaths.
Roy
Dear roy Bhai.

When Baba dixit started narrating Ak during the initial years, and stating that BK is Ravan-rajya, his philosophy was met with great resistance and he was thrown out of bk centers. ....the same this is going to happen and is happening, when potential 108 souls(true Pandavs) are stating that AK is Krishna ki jhooti Gita and Advance Party has become a subtle Ravan-rajya where all PBKs(sitas) are bound intellectually in the jail of ambigious explanations of Murlis.

The whole Godly knowledge can be seen with a relative vision according to the platform you are standing on.....when one sees with bk vision, then one considers the outside world as Ravan-rajya.....when one sees with pbk vision, then bk appears as Ravan-rajya....but when one sees from the top of the spiritual pyramid(choti), then all Three Worlds appear as Ravan-rajya(irreligious rajya) starting from the physical world to the subtle (BKs) and the subtlest (PBKs).

shivsena.

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Re: BKWSU and AIVV teach omnipresence of God.

Post by arjun » 12 Mar 2011

shivsena wrote:When Baba dixit started narrating Ak during the initial years, and stating that BK is Ravan-rajya, his philosophy was met with great resistance and he was thrown out of BK centers. ....the same this is going to happen and is happening, when potential 108 souls(true Pandavs) are stating that AK is Krishna ki jhooti Gita
I think you have forgotten the day when Baba came to your house (or your Father's house) and recorded an entire Discussion CD discussing various points of knowledge with you although he knew that you have started opposing him. You were almost shouting at him but he was answering to all your questions calmly. Yet, you make the above mentioned false allegations.

I have myself seen how PBKs who were not following Shrimat and were opposing him vehemently were allowed to attend the classes for a long-long time. But if someone continues to cause lots of disturbances for a long time, they are asked to attend the classes only at the gitapathshalas but not at the mini-Madhubans. Even now I know some such persons.

And why not find for proofs on this forum itself. Even when Baba knew that someone was defaming him a lot on this forum, he answered many of the queries asked on this forum since so many years. The case of his educational qualifications must be fresh in everybody's memory.

But when compared to Baba, the BKs completely ban a person as soon as they know that he/she has come in contact with the PBKs. They stop seing, talking or moving with them and start defaming him. Whereas PBKs have been continuously engaged in discussions with ex-PBKs since so many years through this forum even though they have faced the ugliest defamation and anger of ex-PBKs.

So, the allegation levelled by you against Baba do not appear to be true.

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