On the way to Paramdham

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mbbhat
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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by mbbhat » 03 Mar 2009

1) Logic, theory ....cannot be applied to ...

2) Though a battery ... And if that battery or mobile phone is not recharged for a long term period, that energy left at the threshold level is also subject to reach zero level ...

3)But there no energy is left when the world drama reaches its threshold level, so there is no internal functioning to sustain the world drama.
1)So can thermodynamic theory be applied to effect of thoughts on matter?

2)That is what I meant. God descends at appropriate time to recharge. No soul is kept for long period without recharge.

3)I do not believe that energy would be zero. There will be some energy in the soul. That is why we are able to think, walk, speak, judge, etc. Murli point also says, the battery power of soul never attains zero.
4)But there is a problem. If God Shiv is the source of that available knowledge when the world drama goes through its threshold level, He must have to incarnate before that threshold point, so that He could get some time to deliver that available knowledge.
4)Yes, definitely. God can come even a little bit beore the threshold level. Another thing is when God descends some of the souls woul be still in Paramdham without had discharged at all.

One more thing:- Take a crane that lifts bodies. Its lifting power will be maximum at the time of manufacture. As you use, its power will go on reducing. It can never increase. But take example of a human being. During manufacturing(birth) the muscle power would be zero. It goes on increasing as the child grows. It will become maximum and then again goes on reducing as the person becomes old(boodhaa). So we cannot compare a machine to physical body even though both are made of proton, electron and neutrons. Then can we compare the thermodynamics with soul power?
5)But, as the recharging process of the world drama starts at that very point of time when God incarnates & starts ...
5)Recharging process does not start immediately. It depends upon Yoga and not on just knowledge. BKs do even sins. So there is discharging also.

Just a point:- (I am not sure)Health science says life energy of a person would go on reducing from birth to death. But as we all know status of health, muscle power, disease change. There are cases who were unable to walk at the age of 50(due to bad health), but at the age of 60, they were able to do all their work.

For a machine, there is only one parameter. Eg:- take two identical machines. The one which has higher capacity and effiecency is better than the other. The better machine can be said to be younger(that has more life than the other). But in case of human beings, it cannot be said. A 60 year old person may be happier than a youth. So in case of soul, there is more complexity.

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by new knowledge » 03 Mar 2009

mbbhat wrote:1)So can thermodynamic theory be applied to effect of thoughts on matter?
1) Irrelevant question. Please come to the point & give short answers.
2) Thermodynamic theory is a middle range theory & it has some limitations at the level of the whole universe or the world drama as a whole.
3) There is difference between threshold mode of a battery or a mobile & that of the world drama as a whole. During the threshold level, battery or mobile phone does not come to the stand-still position (internal functioning goes on); but the world drama comes to the stand-still position at the threshold level, which is beyond the scope of thermodynamics.

2) That is what I meant. God descends at appropriate time to recharge. No soul is kept for long period without recharge.
3)I do not believe that energy would be zero.....the battery power of soul never attains zero.
I am talking about charging/discharging of the world drama (as a whole) & not about charging/discharging of souls. Actually, there is no direct connection between threshold (stand-still) level of the world drama & discharging level of souls. The consciousness of souls is not sustained by the dynamics of the world drama.
4)Yes, definitely God can come even a little bit before the threshold level.
Does a battery achieve threshold level even after it is put to recharge? Then, how can the world drama (as a whole) achieve threrhold level a little bit after the incarnation of God? Is there any Murli point to prove that the world drama goes through threshold mode even after the incarnation of God?
Recharging process does not start immediately.... So, in case of soul, there is more complexity.
If God does not start recharging immediately after His incarnation, what does He do during that time interval between His incarnation & threshold mode of the world drama? Please reply with potential Murli points or quotations from holy ancient religious scriptures

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by mbbhat » 05 Mar 2009

new knowledge wrote:1) Irrelevant question. Please come to the point & give short answers.
2) Thermodynamic theory is a middle range theory & it has some limitations at the level of the whole universe or the world drama as a whole.

3)I am talking about charging/discharging of the world drama (as a whole) & not about charging/discharging of souls.

4)Actually, there is no direct connection between threshold (stand-still) level of the world drama & discharging level of souls.

5)The consciousness of souls is not sustained by the dynamics of the world drama.

6)If God does not start recharging immediately after His incarnation, what does He do during that time interval between His incarnation & threshold mode of the world drama?

7)Please reply with potential Murli points or quotations from holy ancient religious scriptures
1)I do not have full confidence that I wil be able to explain properly. But even scientific theory cannot expalin beginning, middle and ends of Time Cycle.

2)If it has limitation, then why do you want that to be applied here?

3)OK, but each is inter related. I had said my research on effect of thoughts on universe is still going on. But you cannot say that there is no effect. Because thoughts have effect on one's own body.

4)We cannot say. Sleep gives you rest to body. How? We have experinece. Hence we agree. Otherwise we would not have.

5)Only powerful souls will be stable. All other souls will get affected by circumstances, like powerty, disease, etc. When a bomb blast in Pakistan consciousness of even Indians will get affected. God only is the exception. All others' consciousness will get affetcted at some or other time.

6)He gives knowledge. It is like nourishing children. Or spending on education. When a student is admitted to College, still there is discharging(expense will continue). When you plant a tree, you have to spend. You will reap fruit later.

7)Murli says there is no need to take any head ache in these things. Become pure by remembrance first. I do not know about Scriptures, but can definitely challenge anybody that no scripture can explain this.
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Let us forget soul and God. I would like to know about the following:-

Can any scientific process restore entropy? A tree converts useless manure into food(Of course it takes power from Sun). There is a definite restoration of entropy(am I right)? So do any of scientific process make world better(increase the existing resources)?

If yes, please explain.

If no, then I think answer cannot be explained scientifically.

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by new knowledge » 11 Apr 2009

Dear PBK brothers & sisters, today one of my PBK friend told me that there is no subtle body in the Golden & Silver Age; and that the subtle bodies get shaped (due to karmic accounts?) from the Copper Age. Thus, when a soul incarnates (from Paramdham) on the earth, during the period of the Golden or Silver Age, it directly gets a corporeal body in the womb of his mother without passing through subtle body stage. But if that soul incarnates here in the Copper or Iron Age, he do not enter into the womb; he first enters into a readymade corporeal body of another soul, in that body, his subtle body gets shaped & then he takes a physical birth by entering into the womb.
1) Is this in accordance of Murlis & Avyakt Vanis or Ved-Shashras?
2) If the subtle body is the outcome of the negative Karmic accounts (from the Copper Age), why.....why, Farishtas (फरिश्ता) are viewed in the subtle bodies even though their Karmic accounts have been settled & they have no any Sanskaars of negativity?
3) If a soul is unscious in the Paramdham & he cannot awake in his consciousness without entering into a corporeal body, why the corporeal body is termed as the gross body which is inert? How can the gross/inert body be the medium to awake the soul in his conscious stage? If this is so, does not this logically mean that the more the affinity towards inert/corporeal body, the more the consciousness a soul achieves?? And as the entrance of a soul into an inert body awakes(?) the consciousness within a soul, why to practise to detach from body-consciousness? Why not to practise to be more & more body-conscious?
4) How do Golden Aged souls awakes in their full conscious, 16 degree Sato-pradhaan stage, within no time, when they incarnate on the earth from Paramdham where they are supposed to be complete unconscious ??

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by shivsena » 11 Apr 2009

Dear brother.

I do not believe in some jad Paramdham above where souls exist as point of light and so i am not able to express my views about how the souls descend and come into bodies in Golden Age and in Copper Age. i feel that first it has to be well-defined where do the souls go after destruction, only then we will be able to speculate on how the souls incarnate on earth.

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by new knowledge » 12 Apr 2009

shivsena wrote:I do not believe in some jad Paramdham above where souls exist as point of light
I fully agree with you. Paramdham is energetic & it's the symbol of the Absolute Truth, God, His Divine Attributes, and lovefull relation of God with Rudra souls.
and so i am not able to express my views about how the souls descend and come into bodies in Golden Age and in Copper Age. i feel that first it has to be well-defined where do the souls go after destruction, only then we will be able to speculate on how the souls incarnate on earth.
It's not that souls incarnate on earth from some outside Paramdham & they return to that Paramdham after destruction. It's just analogous to go in a dream stage & awake from that dream. Definately, you would not like to believe that when we are in dreams, we leave the world of real life & incarnate into the imaginary world of dreams & that after awakening from dreams, we return to the real life world. Similarly, the world drama is also Unlimited Mayavi Dream; there is no question of leaving Paramdham & entering into the Mayavi world drama & that of returning to Paramdha after destruction. That's the matter awakening of souls & not that of physical shifting of souls from Paramdham to the earth & from the earth to Paramdham.

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by new knowledge » 13 Apr 2009

It's a strange & contradictory fact that BKs & PBKs practise detachment from body with an intention to achieve unlimited happiness, peace, bliss as well as they believe that without body there is no any feeling of happiness, peace, bliss. How to solve this contradictory puzzle?

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by shivsena » 13 Apr 2009

new knowledge wrote: Similarly, the world drama is also Unlimited Mayavi Dream; there is no question of leaving Paramdham & entering into the Mayavi world drama & that of returning to Paramdha after destruction. That's the matter awakening of souls & not that of physical shifting of souls from Paramdham to the earth & from the earth to Paramdham.
Dear brother

i fully agree with you that there is no physical migration of souls(point of light), from Paramdham to earth and back. This world drama is a drama of matter+spiritual energy and so matter+energy must co-exist eternally on this earth, but its presentation keeps on changing from sato-raj-tamo qualities over the period of 5000 years.

So the question still remains: where do the 600 crore souls(sparks of spiritual energy) go after destruction, as only 9,16,108 are the ones going to survive with bodies to usher in the new world order.

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by new knowledge » 17 Apr 2009

All of us are in search of extra-sensory pleasures (अतिन्द्रिय सुख) which is eternal - long long lasting. Is it possible to have such long long lasting extra-sensory pleasures through the bio-chemical mechanism of the mortal/perishable corporeal human body? In other words, is it necessary to enter into a corporeal body to achieve the eternal extra-sensory pleasures? But extra-sensory pleasures mean that which cannot be achieved through the medium of the bodily sense-organs; and those pleasures achieved through bodily sense-organs are termed as 'sensory pleasures (वैषयिक सुख). Then, what's the difference between sensory & extra-sensory pleasures if we have to depend upon corporeal body, as a medium, to have sensory as well as extra-sensory pleasures?

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by shivsena » 19 Apr 2009

new knowledge wrote: Then, what's the difference between sensory & extra-sensory pleasures if we have to depend upon corporeal body, as a medium, to have sensory as well as extra-sensory pleasures?[/color]
That is good rational deduction which shows how important the body is to experience both super-sensous joy and sensual pleasures.
I had similar such thoughts when i was in basic knowledge. I used to wonder about how when the soul is in Paramdham with ShivBap it has no feelings of bliss and it has no realisation that it is staying with his beloved Father in sweet silent home, and it has to realise itself and his eternal Father only after it enters the body on this earth; this means that when you are a soul without a body there is no self-realisation nor god-realisation and only when you get attached to this body that you strive for self-realisation and god-realisation, which again can be achieved only by detachment from this body;
some intriguing paradox !!!!!

So soul-consciousness and body-consciousness are terms in relation to the body, just as sensory and extra-sensory pleasures are also in relation to the body. Soul without body is helpless (it cannot feel anything) and body without soul is useless(just matter); both are necessary and hence i feel that there is nothing like jad Paramdham above, but the whole drama of matter and energy is enacted here on earth only. (just the presentation changes with time).

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The world drama is not Eternal.

Post by new knowledge » 20 Apr 2009

According to the advance knowledge (as arjunbhai mentions), at the end of the Kalpa, the soul of Ram (Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) goes to the Paramdham at last, he stays there for few seconds & returns from Paramdham before everybody else; so all souls are present in Paramdham & there is no any soul present in the (corporeal) world drama during that period when the soul of Ram is in Paramdham. And, as there is no actor (soul playing his role) present in the world drama for few seconds when the soul of Ram is in Paramdham, does not this recent churning of the advance knowledge logically prove that the world drama gets a break during the period of those few seconds? How could any drama take place without actors? Thus, the world drama is not Eternal, as it has a break, at the end of the Kalpa.

But, the Paramdham exists also during those few seconds; so only the Paramdham is Eternal. Hence, Paramdham is described as Akhand Mahaajyothi tatwa (अखंड महाज्योति तत्व).

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by mbbhat » 21 Apr 2009

new knowledge wrote:today one of my PBK friend told me that there is no subtle body in the Golden & Silver Age; and that the subtle bodies get shaped (due to karmic accounts?) from the Copper Age. Thus, when a soul incarnates (from Paramdham) on the earth, during the period of the Golden or Silver Age, it directly gets a corporeal body in the womb of his mother without passing through subtle body stage. But if that soul incarnates here in the Copper or Iron Age, he do not enter into the womb; he first enters into a readymade corporeal body of another soul, in that body, his subtle body gets shaped & then he takes a physical birth by entering into the womb.
1) Is this in accordance of Murlis & Avyakt Vanis or Ved-Shashras?
2) If the subtle body is the outcome of the negative Karmic accounts (from the Copper Age), why.....why, Farishtas (फरिश्ता) are viewed in the subtle bodies even though their Karmic accounts have been settled & they have no any Sanskaars of negativity?
3a) If a soul is unscious in the Paramdham & he cannot awake in his consciousness without entering into a corporeal body, why the corporeal body is termed as the gross body which is inert? How can the gross/inert body be the medium to awake the soul in his conscious stage? 3b)If this is so, does not this logically mean that the more the affinity towards inert/corporeal body, the more the consciousness a soul achieves?? 3)And as the entrance of a soul into an inert body awakes(?) the consciousness within a soul, why to practise to detach from body-consciousness? Why not to practise to be more & more body-conscious?

4) How do Golden Aged souls awakes in their full conscious, 16 degree Sato-pradhaan stage, within no time, when they incarnate on the earth from Paramdham where they are supposed to be complete unconscious ??
--
Dear new knowledge soul,
First of all, I respect your very high independent thinking and churning. But I am trying to reply according to my capacity.
1)Better PBKs only answer to this. But I would like to ask an additional question here. So acording to PBKs, for a soul that takes just one birth in a Kalpa does not enter in mothers' womb. Can we give title AYONIJ to them?

2)I am not sure whether subtle body exists in heaven. But most probably there is a Murli point that says animals do not have subtle bodies. One arguement can be:- A sinner as well as the one who conquers sin use mind and intellects to a considerable extent. One uses negatively, the other positively. So extra or more(whatever you can say) consciousness, subtle body can be formed. Deities are like buddus(ignorant). There is no extra thinking.

3a)Car is definitely jada(inert). As soon as driver enters/uses it become active.
3b)Correct. BKs are said to forget the present body. Murli says to remember 84 cars(births= bodies). So as one thinks more bodies, he becomes more soul conscious. But if one is caught in present body, it is indication of bodyconsciousness. A driver shopuld not be caught/influenced in/by one car.

4)It is like sprouting of a seed. It can remain in same stage. When it comes in comapny of water, it sprouts. It is also like switching on a battery. When a load is connected to bulb, immediately current flows and bulb glows. Similarly when soul enters a body, there is experience in soul as well as energy in body.
---
All of us are in search of extra-sensory pleasures (अतिन्द्रिय सुख) which is eternal - long long lasting. Is it possible to have such long long lasting extra-sensory pleasures through the bio-chemical mechanism of the mortal/perishable corporeal human body? In other words, is it necessary to enter into a corporeal body to achieve the eternal extra-sensory pleasures? But extra-sensory pleasures mean that which cannot be achieved through the medium of the bodily sense-organs; and those pleasures achieved through bodily sense-organs are termed as 'sensory pleasures (वैषयिक सुख). Then, what's the difference between sensory & extra-sensory pleasures if we have to depend upon corporeal body, as a medium, to have sensory as well as extra-sensory pleasures?
Sensory pleasure is like enjoying spare parts of car and petrol. It is like trying to enjoy by kissing a car.It is like trying to eat seat, handle of a car(Non veg people). [Even veg people who are addicted to taste of food also come in this category indirectly]

Extra sensory pleasure is like enjoying driving and using car to go to picnic spot and enjoying the picnic places. The first is very much limited, second is unlimited.
According to the Advanced Knowledge (as arjunbhai mentions), at the end of the Kalpa, the soul of Ram (Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit) goes to the Paramdham at last, he stays there for few seconds & returns from Paramdham before everybody else; so all souls are present in Paramdham & there is no any soul present in the (corporeal) world drama during that period when the soul of Ram is in Paramdham. And, as there is no actor (soul playing his role) present in the world drama for few seconds when the soul of Ram is in Paramdham, does not this recent churning of the Advanced Knowledge logically prove that the world drama gets a break during the period of those few seconds? How could any drama take place without actors? Thus, the world drama is not Eternal, as it has a break, at the end of the Kalpa.
PBK philosophy may say all the souls are wandering (or lying somewhere in space) just before going to Paramdham(since they have to leave their body before Mr. Dixit and have to wait till Mr. Dixit enters Paramdham). But according to BK philosophy, there will be some souls in corporeal world even when number one soul(Brahma Baba) goes to Paramdham as well as his return to corporeal world. It says there will be impure souls even when Krishna takes birth. So there is no even physical break in drama according to Bk philosophy.

Thank You new knowledge soul once again.

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by new knowledge » 22 Apr 2009

mbbhat wrote:But according to BK philosophy, there will be some souls in corporeal world even when number one soul(Brahma Baba) goes to Paramdham as well as his return to corporeal world. It says there will be impure souls even when Krishna takes birth. So there is no even physical break in drama according to BK philosophy.
1) If BrahmaBaba goes to Paramdham before everybody else (as according to BKs), God (ShivBaba) also must have to return to Paramdham before everybody else, as He cannot play his role without His only one Chariot 'BrahmaBaba'. But the God has promised us that He will be with His children until the End. Then, how could He return to Paramdham before the completion of the Kalpa, i.e, before the last soul goes to Paramdham?
2) And, how do those impure souls, who are in the corporeal world during that period when BrahmaBaba is in Paramdham, get purified in the absence of ShivBaba? Do you think that impurity of those souls get eradicated partially via the practise of RajYoga when ShivBaba is present here & partially without practising RajYoga when ShivBaba returns to Paramdham (as in the absence of ShivBaba, there is no question of RajYoga)?
3) As per thermodynamics, there is no any built-in mechanism within any systen which could reduce the level of entropy without the exchange of energy with some reservoir of energy, in the surroundings of that system. Even though for just a moment, if the exchange of energy within that systen & its surrounding reservoir gets interrupted, the process of reduction of entropy level stops during that moment. Similarly, God is that reservoir with whom constant interaction of souls is essential until the last germ of impurity (in this world drama) is burnt. If God returns to Paramdham before the complete eradication of impurity of this world, how could the impure souls get purified in the absence of God ??

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by mbbhat » 23 Apr 2009

new knowledge wrote: 1) If BrahmaBaba goes to Paramdham before everybody else (as according to BKs), God (ShivBaba) also must have to return to Paramdham before everybody else, as He cannot play his role without His only one Chariot 'BrahmaBaba'. But the God has promised us that He will be with His children until the End. Then, how could He return to Paramdham before the completion of the Kalpa, i.e, before the last soul goes to Paramdham?

2) And, how do those impure souls, who are in the corporeal world during that period when BrahmaBaba is in Paramdham, get purified in the absence of ShivBaba? ...

3) As per thermodynamics, there is no any built-in mechanism within any systen which could reduce the level of entropy without the exchange of energy with some reservoir of energy, in the surroundings of that system. Even though for just a moment, if the exchange of energy within that systen & its surrounding reservoir gets interrupted, the process of reduction of entropy level stops during that moment. Similarly, 4)God is that reservoir with whom constant interaction of souls is essential until the last germ of impurity (in this world drama) is burnt. If God returns to Paramdham before the complete eradication of impurity of this world, how could the impure souls get purified in the absence of God ??
---
1)The promise is given to those who love him. Not for all. Those who love God will ascend to Paramdham with him. There is an Avyakt Murli point that says, "Do you wish to come to Paramdham with Father or in the baaraat(Hindi word)".

2)Very simple , just by punishment! [Before returning of ShivBaba, his revealtion would happen and the souls will repent for their action as well as get delighted (that they will get at least mukti= peace for long duration).

3)It is not quantity of energy that is going to do. It is quality of energy. A processed food may have high calorific value, but it may be useless. A natural food may have low calorific value, but highly useful. A drop of poison can kill a person. A drop of medicine can save a person's life. Hence I think thermodynamics cannot be applied here fully.

4)I do not think Constant interaction is essential. Just by natural calamaties nature can be purified. The souls can be purified by giving punishment either physically or even by visions.

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by new knowledge » 28 May 2009


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