Honour Roll - suicide

for ex-Brahma Kumaris, to discuss matters related to their experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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light server
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Post by light server » 22 Nov 2006

It has been a while since I posted, but one has to wonder ... God works in many ways, as there are many paths up the mountain, though I find no fault at all with the Murli, with humility and respect to BK and ex-BK. Without the psychology aspects I would argue my point that the BK Teachers may have found a path up the mountain, but they may express it as the path not up the mountain, but as a path, or the path. Which can cause such pressure, resulting in a poor state of affairs, for modern living is a pressure in itself. Tact and coolness belongs to ShivBaba as all the best of us exists in him. Buddhism has that coolness, that appears to be very void through and through in the BK voice and organization.

The second point I would make is this, OK, there is a certain way of doing things, but there has to be a freedom in doing this. If you excuse my bluntness, but I cannot help it, one needs room to roam. This is difficult even if one chooses to forget about many things.

The pleasure in the path is the choice in the path.

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primal.logic
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Post by primal.logic » 23 Nov 2006

Welcome back light server.
light server wrote:Without the psychology aspects
I think the psychology aspects are the main ones - this is the only information we have that has any connection to scientific research. This is something that is scoffed at by Bk's - "what do scientists know - God is telling us ... whatever". This is what makes the BKs a cult - exclusive knowledge that is superior to any other knowledge, that only the chosen ones get to even know about.

According to Shrimat a good student will never read or study anything that is not from the Murli. This is the basis of cult belief, cult thinking.

Whenever I have conversations with any of the Bk Seniors I feel like I am stuck in a time warp. It would be an almost identical conversation to 20 years ago - minds and thinking paralysed by indoctrination, Murli quotes, and statistics - students, centres and public programs. There is nothing new in their thinking, no evolution, no new concepts. Just the same old dogma.

And I fully agree with you about choices. We have none as a BK. You may be led to believe that you do. Dadi Janki said that the BKs aren't a cult because you can leave anytime you like. Well really? Such hypocrisy. It is this hypocrisy, and blatantly misguided purpose, that has caused the deaths of too many people. Keep in mind the theme of this string - this cult causes trauma and death.

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Post by celtiggyan » 14 Dec 2006

How many souls of ordinary religions take their lives each day? Do we say that such and such took his life because he was a Catholic and the church is all to blame? Does a bomber who was brought up with the Islamic religion (of sorts) and kills himself and others have the religion to blame? Or is it just the individual? How much can we blame organisations for creating our own failings?

C.

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Post by john » 14 Dec 2006

celtiggyan wrote: ... How much can we blame organisations for creating our own failings?
That is a very fair point from Celticgyan. If for example someone is susceptable to mental illness, then there is a chance it will happen whether they become a BK or not. Likewise , if someone gets a physical illness like cancer can that be blamed on them becoming a BK as well?

So the matter is not just if someone becomes ill after becoming a BK, but also was it being a BK what triggered off the condition.

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Post by bansy » 14 Dec 2006

I remember watching the World Cup and there was a goal scored by an individual player with really good skill, and there was another goal scored after the team passed the ball via 9 or so players and the goalscorer merely tapped the ball into the net. However, in the latter, the resulting goal was deemed to be of more quality than the former, and won the goal of the week (or something called like that).

Thus I feel as long as you are part of the the chain of events that lead to the final result, then you are part to blame, or part to praised. So if you joined the BKs when you are stable but became unstable afterwards with the BKs and commit suicide, then the BKs are partly to blame. If you join the BKs when you are unstable and remain unstable still, then the BKs are partly to blame. If you join the BKs unstable and become stable, then the BKs are partly to be praised. If you join the BKs stable and remain stable, then the BKs are partly to be praised.

That's "truth" table in words. I think. :lol:

Of course there may be other affecting factors, such as work, family, money, etc, which are just included in that chain.

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Post by john » 14 Dec 2006

But what if you had great health before, then some years after being a BK you developed lumbago or athritis, how would that fit into the equation?

Would the BKs still have to accept some responsibility?

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Post by bansy » 14 Dec 2006

I see your point and that of Celticgyyan. It is the degree of apportioning blame/praise.

I think it is up to you to decide how much of the responsibility that other factors, including BKs, affect your situation. It will then be the matching of what you have decide and what the organisation agrees.

If you have had great health, and you also continue to have great health after becoming a BK, the same applies, how much you decide to apportion that success to the BKs will be matched on how much the BKs are willing to accept that.

Each of us have different depths of experience with the BKs, each of us have spent measure and apportion our life spent with the BKs in different ways. The spectrum is wide, some have suffered greatly whilst others are loving it. And ultimately the organisation has to have something to do with it but it won't be the only factor.

And I think that is why we are in this forum discussing all types of issues, because we would like to find out the "limits" to which the BKWSU serves its members which at the same time is also the "limits" the members agree to. Again, the "limits" seem to vary depending on who and where you are. Is the expectation of the members to the organisation the same as the expectation of the organisation to its members, and is this consistent (as with the Murli is said to be consistent throughout the world). It does not seem to be so, with the number of people leaving the BKWSU as compared to the numbers staying.
John wrote:Would the BKs still have to accept some responsibility?
I think what most of us may expect, whether as a BK or not, is that the organisation, with its unlimited aims within a limited world, can offer a greater support to the after events of trauma or suicide, regardless of whether it feels it is apportioned the blame or not. i.e. show its humbleness, and thus its greatness.

Just as a lokik Father or mother will always feel responsible for whatever actions of their children, I would also think that the spiritual Father and the spiritual family would also do so likewise. Otherwise there is no meaning in the term "family". Especially in the BKWSU where we are disciplined from day one to call each other Brothers and Sisters, older Sisters and Brothers (Dadis and Dadas) etc. I don't know if other religions do so from day one. Or does a family no longer care about you after things for you do not turn up well.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 14 Dec 2006

John wrote:But what if you had great health before, then some years after being a BK you developed lumbago or athritis, how would that fit into the equation?

Would the BKs still have to accept some responsibility?
Let's put down the Tiger Balm for a moment John and keep things in context. Are you suggesting there are no mental stresses during the initiation and exiting processes? Did you personally "exit" or did you just stop getting up to morning class? Please answer this.

If they were meddling with your body-chemistry directly, I'd say, "yes, OK", to your lumbago. But it is the very core beliefs and value systems of personally psychologies we are discussing about here. So, yes, we ought analyze the connections between those and complete psycholgical meltdowns. I agree to a certain extent, and often consider myself, the "what if?" question in order to make a fair assessment ... what if I, this person, had not entered Gyan, what might they have done/experienced, how much can I/they blame, how much should I/they take responsibility etc.

In balance, to date, I say there definitely are exacerbating circumstance that relate negative states of mind and emotions with BK Raja Yoga practise on leaving to the point of debilitation. And, of course, we have Joel's experience of one student going completely mad and the SS not knowing what to do to remember. BTW, what screening do they actually do? I was never told to do any. If you personally have not left, or challenged them, you wont know. The typical Kirpalani Klan response, "its not a cult, you can leave anytime" is an awfully callous joke IMHO.

I am reminded of those trash old posters, "You don't have to be mad to work here ... but it helps".

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Post by john » 14 Dec 2006

Yes Bansy, that is well put and I agree the BK family should look after it's members. If it is unable to help them directly then just like a doctor or hospital will be consulted for physical ailments, so outside help should be consulted for mental health problems.

Maybe they do realise they are not the be all or end all I don't know. Do they consulte outside help when ity's beyond their means to help directly?

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Post by john » 14 Dec 2006

ex-l wrote:Let's put down the Tiger Balm for a moment and keep things in context, are you suggesting there are no mental stresses during the initiation and exiting processes? Did you personally "exit" or did you just stop getting up to morning class? Please answer this.
I am not at all suggesting there are no stresses and I know it can run deep to the core of somebodies being. What I am saying is there are mental illnesses with or without BKs, just like there are physical illnesses and each case should be judged seperately.
If they were meddling with your body-chemistry directly, I'd say, yes OK to your lumbago. But it is the very core beliefs and value systems of personally psychologies we are discussing about here. So, yes, we ought analyze the connections. I agree to a certain extent and often consider myself the "what if?" question in order to make a fair assessment ... what if I, this person, had not entered Gyan, what might they have done/experienced, how much can I/they blame, how much should I/they take responsibility etc.
Becoming a BK is very radical especially if you take it seriously. The whole fundemental of life and the understanding of your own existance is challenged.
In balance, to date, I say there definitely are exacerbating circumstance that relate negative states of mind and emotions with BK Raja Yoga practise on leaving to the point of debilitation. And, of course, we have Joel's experience of one student going completely mad and the SS not knowing what to do to remember. What screening do they actually do? If you have not left or challenged them, you want know. The typical Kirpalani Klan response, "its not a cult, you can leave anytime" is an awfully callous joke IMHO.

I cannot defend the BKSWU because I don't know if they are following or understanding Shrimat properly. I don't know whether what they say is true or not, that's what I'd like to find out.

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Post by bansy » 14 Dec 2006

I am not sure about other religions or groups, but I think what makes and made most of us attracted to the BKs is because of the "family" aspect, and the inspiration to be part of the "World family". Because as a family, we come to understand it as sharing. Its even greater than simply being friends.

We also know that members within are not all professionals because we are just "ordinary" folks. As with any family, as just with friends, it is the thought that counts. It is not just about getting outside help for expertise where needed, but more to just being there for the sake of being there for any soul who happens to be struggling. It is not just the successes we should share, we should also share the failures. When that is capable, even such failures are turned to be successful.

A bunch of climbers are aiming towards to top of K2. It is different feeling if we all make it to the top together, even if we have to carry the weak, to the feeling if the complete group cannot make it; the latter often attributed to "depends on your karma". Because on the way back down the mountain, you'll step over the bodies you left behind, tarnishing your emphatic joy a few hours earlier. Hoping that snow just buries the bodies is an excuse, the blood seeps through.

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Post by john » 14 Dec 2006

So Bansy are you saying BKs are just callous and only out for there own prize, like the mountain climbers were who left behind their injured partner to get to the top quicker?

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Post by bansy » 14 Dec 2006

are you saying BKs are just callous and only out for there own prize, like the mountain climbers were who left behind their injured partner to get to the top quicker?
No, I don't think so of the BKs (apologise if the reading makes it feel that way), my point is that because there is such a prize/ the carrot/ the inheritance/ the rosary/ the number, that this can delude us from the thing we want, peace and harmony. In the lokik world, brothers fight over the land, or challenge the throne as who will be the next king. The possesion of power is open to use and also abuse. Because it is also something not so easy to relinquish. We are still humans, after all, however divine one feels they are. Often we don't even know we made a mistake until afterwards. But with Gyan and God as the sherpa Supreme Guide, these mistakes surely should not occur, at least within the framework of the BK climbers. You climb the mountain with God in your backpack. Hence when coming down the mountain and find the bodies, our imperfections resurface, in which case it is too late.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 15 Dec 2006

John wrote:Becoming a BK is very radical especially if you take it seriously. The whole fundemental of life and the understanding of your own existance is challenged.
And there is not just "becoming a BK" there is also becoming a surrendered sister under direct life control of the Seniors. Additional psychological stress ... especially if it turns out to be a load of old cobblers. Ranjana's case would be different from, say, your own as she would hav ebeen one of those little India girls taken in training to become a Senior Sister/sister-in-charge. I think we know very little about what sort of life those women have. I imagine her life under Brother Julian was a taste but also less than a total liberation. It is probably a huge big taboo to discuss the matter further. Another dark, secret skeleton lurking in the cupboards of Baba's House but I would personally like to know what happened as part of my closure on the subject.

One of the big problems is that we were sold the BK life as being one thing and it appears to be another. If the higher self is screaming out, "this is wrong, run ..." but the lower self is caught up in a psychic network of deeply ingrained habit, false relationships, honors, duties, beliefs; that is enough to tear someone to pieces. If one leaves and has no tools to function in the real world, then that is also enought o break some. In many ways, I think one has to be possessed as a person to accept BKWSU life. I do not believe it is the path of liberation right now. (See mention of "capping" in another thread).

We know that some of what it teaches is not true and not even in accordance with Shiva's guidance. If it turns out, through a lack of fulfilment again, that the majority of it is not then we will have a lot more problem cases. I think that the whole Honeymon period is a kind of madness. At the very least something like some negative anima or animus complex. Group suicides? Probably not. But imagine how broken you would be to discover it was all rubbish?

I think you would have 3 responses. Some would just die away, some would grab the kingdom for what it was; money, brick and mortar, a majority would just follow those grabbers and become their servants. In someway, I think this has hapened already.

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Post by tinydot » 15 Dec 2006

We have observed in animal kingdom a form of physical killing. I think in our case too, this got to do with the survival of the most fit. Fit in what sense? Fit in being able to rationalize and make decision for oneself. Unfortunately, we are a mixture of weak and strong individuals. Children, emotionally unstable individuals, and those who got nothing, are susceptible to risking their lives, to clinging for something, or to bowing to those in power. This can lead to misuse of power.

Strongly virtuous individuals with strong love for everyone will do "something" great to uplift the weak ones. Strongly vicious individuals will do anything to control everyone along their way. It is the duty of everyone to protect themselves. And it is the duty of stongly virtuous ones to protect the unprotected weak ones. I feel the responsiblity is greatest for the one who wants to be spritually great. God took the responsibilty to uplift the poor ones. It is my faith, that the pure teachings He taught us would reverberate mostly in the hearts of those who truly recognize Him, which then causes them to implement positve changes for the benefit of the weak ones.

Having said that, who's to be blamed really? Spritually speaking ... no one. But you can present a legal case if that's what you feel is right.

Individuals don't see the effects of their own actions no matter how truly they believe they are right. We individuals have tendency to control, manipulate either consciously or unconsciously the weak ones. To blame someone is just matter of words. To act and implement a solution is something else. I believe this forum will make a lot of positve changes within the BKWSU. I think we are doing it right slowly but surely. Our weapon is information and that is one way to uplift those who are seriously down.

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