Honour Roll - suicide

for ex-Brahma Kumaris, to discuss matters related to their experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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eromain
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Post by eromain » 22 Aug 2006

Dear mr green,

as mentioned above I had a close call with suicide and I have also had bouts of depression (though in my case the two weren't closely related).

re the depression I just wanted to mention NLP as a great tool for coming to understand the structure of ones particular way of depressing oneself. I would very strongly recommend you found a very good NLP practitioner (at least Master level) and all you need to do is a couple of sessions to know if its for you. I was cured of my "depression" in one evening and I have witnessed the same in many others. I know it sounds ridiculous but it works extremely well and extremely quickly.

If you want any help finding the right person or if you want to talk further about it please pm me.

re the nuisance issue I would like to say that Ranjana not calling me after she promised she would is much more of a damn nuisance than if she had.

eugene

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bansy
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Post by bansy » 22 Aug 2006

Dear Mr Green,

Whatever the indifferences, my sincere and honest feelings go out for you.

I've also heard from others who have gone through NLP, it's worth a try.

Healing takes time, it has built up over time. There is the anonymous forum specially dedicated for ex-BKs if you wish to share and express yourself confidentially. I am not sure how much each one of us can help, but to share and listen, one of the first steps to healing ... getting others to listen to YOU.

But if it is action you want, one thing that may help before pouring time and money on therapists and courses, if you're stuck in a rut, spend it by going out and go away, travel and see the sights, climb Kilimanjaro, have a cocktail on the beach in Spain, find your own paradise and haven. Basically, you won't meet something fresh or someone new if you don't do move. Your problems will not entirely go away but maybe your views on them will. I hope one day later you'd realise how much we also learn from you too, so let us know when you return and tell us. Lots of love and luck.

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fluffy bunny
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Post by fluffy bunny » 22 Aug 2006

bansy wrote:Basically, you won't meet something fresh or someone new if you don't do move. Your problems will not entirely go away but maybe your views on them will.
This is good advice. A non-BK friend once said similar to me; If you always do what you have always done; you will always get what you have always gotten.

I respect you coming out publicly - BKs and the BKWSU should see this stuff. There is shared responsibility. Folks ought to know about the flipside of 'The Raja Yoga Experience' before they get into it too deeply.

It is tough stepping out on your own. Facing up to the fact that you have been a huge jerk off and wasted years of your life by giving them away to others is difficult to face up to - and explain to the rest of the non-BK world that you are now going off to meet. Mentally, for its own purposes, BK Raja Yoga is 'specifically' designed to separate you from the rest of the World and being able to ask for and accept help from others. Least of all non-Gyanis, which makes finding and accepting a suitable guide for normal life.

But buying [learning to ride] a motorcycle has worked for more than a few too ! ;-) " Get your motor running, head out on the highway, look for adventure, whatever comes your way ... ". Its a great mantra and its deeply metaphorical ... just go do something your "mothers" all told you not to and see what happens. Life is short. Bansy's advice is good. Go get some distance and air.

Do stuff to get back into your body, you will be sharing this adventure with it for the rest of whatever time there is. Where there are psychic blockages and you cannot make mental headway, phsyical stuff like movement, bodywork, e.g. massage, dance, dare_I_say_sex, are the other way to break through blockages. To a degree, you have to destroy everything you have built up over your years in Gyan. The Festival Season is not over, go find a hippie camp with a sweatlodge, get barenaked in a field at night with a bunch of strangers that really don't care, do silly stuff, laugh and cry ... ! It is 'make your own path' time.

I'd like to talk more about this fairly universal experience after leaving Gyan, but it is your choice whether you want to do it here or in the backroom. We ought to all share experiences of how we came to terms with the breakup.

Good luck.

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mr green
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Post by mr green » 22 Aug 2006

Thank you everyone,

I laughed when I read why not be a nuisance, thank you :lol:. Some wonderful thoughts there, I do need to rock n roll that's for sure.

I am opening up (remember I only used to post one line ... <bansy :lol: > ) but it is part of what happened to me there that has closed me up.

What a ******* life that 12 years was, really ******* *******.

I know that will be auto censored, but you know what it says :D

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freedom
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Post by freedom » 22 Aug 2006

Hi, everyone..

Great posts ... we are so great ... do think about it ~~~ :wink:

By the way, Mr. Green is already 'flying high', looking at the stars and enjoying his back-yard ... 8)

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primal.logic
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thanks, but now what?

Post by primal.logic » 07 Sep 2006

It's good to see the honesty and openness that has been expressed in this string. The 'complications' that came with leaving Gyan after so many years also lead me to multiple attempted suicides. How I am still here is some evidence for me just how strong the survival instinct is.

I left the BK philosophy behind when I left the BK's. I have no fear of reincarnation, karma or Dharmraj. I have no fear of death - just an overriding instinct to stay alive despite the agony that had driven me to attempt to take my own life. Huge relief was found when I discovered that I am ADHD. This was 5 long years after leaving the BKs. It is also why I am so keen for ex-BKs to read the postings I have made re: ADHD as I am sure that there are others who have left who don't realise that their difficulties post-Gyan are more than just the result of having left. And I am certain there are many who are still in Gyan who are ADHD. It would be inappropriate to put up a list of names here, but I do have one.

The real issue for me now is where to from here? I don't think that there is any room for doubt about just how many ex-BKs have contemplated or attempted suicide.

As a wake up call for me: I was talking to a friend of 20 years who was in Gyan for many years before leaving and getting married. She managed to reconcile her emotional difficulties over many years and has found a place for herself as a 'Bhakti BK'. She said to me 'I love Baba and Baba loves me. That's all there is to know. I am not interested in psychology or whether the cycle is 5000 years". Typical of religious types, never let the truth get in the way of your much need faith.

But then she upset me badly - 'those who leave do so as a matter of personal choice. Whatever comes to them is their own fault'. And this after knowing everything that I have been through. It is a typical Bk attitude - she caught me by surprise. Despite everything - even what she went through - at the end of the day she is still cemented in a very 'unhelpful' and otherwise unkind and dispassionate BK attitude. So where does that leave us when attempting to enlighten the BKs as to the damage they are doing?

We have to do something. We have to do something for Ranjana, Sharad and Maria and all the others that have committed suicide out of the sheer grief of having been a BK. We have to do something for all those who leave and are suffering and vulnerable. And we have to do something for us.

It's about time for action.

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sparkal
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love love love love love love love love love love love love

Post by sparkal » 11 Sep 2006

I would like to offer my deepest love and best wishes to these souls. I feel that they will have been protected and well taken care of beyond their departure and wherever they are, may they be content. That should be enough, to say more may be patronising.

However, it is a serious matter. One which may need to be looked at, for the benefit of those who may feel in a similar way towards themselves in future. I sometimes wonder if it is simply a case that, the soul had to be somewhere else, and so went.

There is not enough support from the BK end of things. Souls are not prepared for leaving the path in any way. There is no plan B. I do not want to blame the BKs here either. I would like to think that they have put some thought into this matter and are not just ignoring it to get on with finding privileged individuals in order to taste glory.

I don't know if I met the others, but I remember Ranjana from my visits to London over 20 years ago. It is said that it is those who are left behind who suffer the most. To the family's, and ALL close ones, love and best wishes.

PEACE

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primal.logic
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suicide reinforces bk faith

Post by primal.logic » 10 Nov 2006

As I find myself looking over the edge again I am deeply disturbed by the reaction of BKs to ex bk 'misadventure'. I remember when I was a bk and news was received of an ex bk's misfortune - it was automatically interpreted as being the result of their leaving Gyan. As an example, one ex Bk had been 'struck down' by epilepsy. This was something he had never experienced or suffered during his 10 years in Gyan. So, 'logically', this new suffering must be the product of the negative karma accumulated by 'leaving Baba'. So anyone who leaves is opening themselves up to such horrible possibilities.

This type of thinking is encouraged, at least quietly, as it literally frightens Bk's into staying - any bk I have known is of the faith that to leave means that they will experience deeper sorrow than they ever have. And so the more they are suffering as a Bk the more they are scared to leave. And the more the suffering must increase. They are living in a world in which they are miserable - which must mean that their sanskars, karma and fortune is 'bad', which means that they must have been and are 'bad'. And to leave is only going to make it worse. Their whole inner world is one of conflict and turmoil - all based on the belief in the teachings of Baba, as taught by the Dadis! There is no truth anywhere in this.

Maybe it is catching up with them (the Dadis) - maybe it is because they are so old and even they can no longer deny that reality is at odds with their faith. I mean, we are all supposed to be in heaven well before now, but instead.... Dadiji has dementia and soon won't even know what a bk is, Dadi Janki is forlorn and cannot hide it ....

But it annoys me to say the least that if I were to top myself it would only drive all the BKs I knew deeper into the bk bunker. Instead of them questioning and waking up they would actually question less and become even more blind - it would only reinforce their belief that I had 'failed' rather than the Bk's as a whole.

Anyway, I've more to say but I am outta gas.

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fluffy bunny
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Re: suicide reinforces BK faith

Post by fluffy bunny » 10 Nov 2006

primal.logic wrote:As I find myself looking over the edge again I am deeply disturbed by the reaction of BKs to ex BK 'misadventure'. I remember when I was a BK and news was received of an ex BK's misfortune - it was automatically interpreted as being the result of their leaving Gyan ... <snip>

Anyway, I've more to say but I am outta gas.
Keep documenting it all, please. The BKWSU is in such denial that the more other folks can read the truth of the internal culture the better.

I have been questioning in my mind how they can keep going on about purity and perfection on a personal level but instead swop that for a wholly sanctioned complete and utter dishonesty on an institutional level. But that is "OK" to them as they are the perfect ones and the rest of the world is ignorant. Arguing with them is, to a degree, a no win situation;
  • If you have a bad luck after Gyan; that is interpreted as being the result of leaving Gyan.

    If you have good luck; that is interpreted as using up the karmic benefits creating by following Gyan.

    If you are a non-BK that is getting ahead well and having a good life; you are interpreted merely being a new soul having a pitiful Golden Age in their Iron Age Hell.
How do we interpret this? The only constant that remains is their addiction to a unquestionable self-identification with being spiritual superior to all of humanity - and dedication to pumping out PR about themselves.

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zhuk
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Re: suicide reinforces BK faith

Post by zhuk » 11 Nov 2006

primal.logic wrote:But it annoys me to say the least that if I were to top myself it would only drive all the BKs I knew deeper into the BK bunker. Instead of them questioning and waking up they would actually question less and become even more blind - it would only reinforce their belief that I had 'failed' rather than the BK's as a whole.

Well said primal.logic.

And of course it also holds that if something terrible happens while you are a BK, then its all the fault of your own impurities :roll:

An Aust BK travelling to Mt Abu was attacked and murdered by a taxi driver in Delhi for the quite substantial amount of gold jewellery she was wearing. All her own karma, naturally ... & using the BK rape-victim philosophy ... obviously she was only paying for having been a murderer in a previous existence :(.

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zhuk
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Re: suicide reinforces BK faith

Post by zhuk » 11 Nov 2006

ex-l wrote:How do we interpret this? The only constant that remains is their addiction to a unquestionable self-identification with being spiritual superior to all of humanity - and dedication to pumping out PR about themselves.
  • And if you have bad luck during Gyan that is the fault of your own impurites or 'working out' of your past negative karma
^^Yep ... their PR finds me still even now, years after being asked by them to leave & not come back :P LOL

A personalised letter this week:

"Join the Sydney J-A-M Event!

pressure off ... power on ... globalfusion ... insight ... inner peace ...

UNSW Kensington Campus Sunday 26 November"


The spin goes on :wink:

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primal.logic
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vindication and victory

Post by primal.logic » 13 Nov 2006

If I were to put it in a sentence - the failure of a Bk is actually proof of the truth of Gyan. If someone leaves (to suffer or eat up the little bit of good karma they created) it is vindication if not victory for those who stay.

If you leave, or even if you are simply not a good 'effort maker', the sorrow, trauma or difficulty you may experience is simple 'proof' of the Law of Karma. And therefore of soul, god and drama - cycles and all.

If BKs could differentiate between correlation and cause, and were not so overwhelmingly reductionist in their thinking, we might find a way through. But look at this research:

BF Skinner was the grandfather of Learning Theory (Behaviour Theory), one of the main theories in psychology. He did a lot of experiments on conditioning and learned behaviours. In one experiment he taught pidgeons to peck on a target and receive a reward. Very simple. But what was interesting was when a reward arrived without the target being hit: the pidgeons would associate any current behaviour with the otherwise inexplicable arrival of the food reward. As a result they would continue any such behaviour. Some would spin clockwise, others anti clockwise, others would dip their heads up and down, etc etc.

Skinner named it "superstisious behaviour". It is simple - we perceive a benefit and automatically seek an association, and then willl continue or replicate that behaviour - such as staying in Gyan: when we first came along we find the answers, the code for social living, conduct, and peace and respect. Not to mention that we are among the chosen few and are going to heaven. The 'honeymoon happiness' of coming into Gyan and the 'family' and our first trip to Madhuban is a huge reward. We form an overwhelming association between it and being in Gyan. This is primal, it is deep, it is in our genes.

The human mind operates by association - it is how we learn language as babies, it is how we process all new information. It is how we get stuck in Gyan - BKs maintain the association between perceived benefit and behaviour (staying in Gyan) long after the experience of the benefit has stopped. Even people who have left years ago cling to certain bk beliefs and behaviours because deep down they still maintain the association.

But it was never real. Just promises. And a group of people who seemed to like us for who we were. We felt like we belonged somewhere good, somewhere better than anyone else could have. And we were vindicated - the best feeling of all for someone who felt on the outside and now feels very much on the inside.

There is a pigeon inside us all. Thing is, the BKs are experts at trapping them.

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fluffy bunny
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Pigeon food

Post by fluffy bunny » 13 Nov 2006

primal.logic wrote:It is how we get stuck in Gyan - BKs maintain the association between perceived benefit and behaviour (staying in Gyan) long after the experience of the benefit has stopped. Even people who have left years ago cling to certain BK beliefs and behaviours because deep down they still maintain the association.
I think that you have struck on something very important here.

The question arises what is it that creates that "Honeymoon Period" experience that leaves individuals addicted?
  • Is it hypnotically triggered?
    • Is an "egregore" effect as Gyaniwasi used to write about?
    • Or is it a spook, or a legion of spooks, in some psychic cloud surrounding humanity?
I'd be interested in yours and others' opinions on this.

I just wanted to add, of course, I realise that it could be a combination of all three of the above and the "spooks" could be "ascended masters", "angels of light", past life aliens or whatever ... "Supreme Soul" could well translate as anything when there is nothing or no one to compare it to.

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zhuk
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Re: vindication and victory

Post by zhuk » 13 Nov 2006

primal.logic wrote:Skinner named it "superstisious behaviour". It is simple - we perceive a benefit and automatically seek an association, and then willl continue or replicate that behaviour - such as staying in Gyan ... But it was never real. Just promises. And a group of people who seemed to like us for who we were. We felt like we belonged somewhere good, somewhere better than anyone else could have. And we were vindicated - the best feeling of all for someone who felt on the outside and now feels very much on the inside.
(my emphasis)

Great point, primal. But is not this the salient feature of all "love-bombing" cults??

To shower the new initiate with so much love, warmth etc that they think they have found the ultimate "answer" and therefore (as you point out) become strongly tied to the group lest that love be withdrawn; & hence fear/guilt at losing their place as the "chosen ones".

Are those more susceptible to this big-sell more likely to be "outsiders" in some way, as you suggest? (I know I was! lol)

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primal.logic
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yes and yes

Post by primal.logic » 14 Nov 2006

I think that those most likely to become BKs are those who have come from environments that were dysfunctional - meaning that the individual is still seeking validation and meaning. We all want to deny that we were needing love and acceptance. We made have hidden our need with cynicism and anger, maybe aggression - but meantime there was 'something missing' ie: 'love'. And what is love? A neurobiological response to acceptance - it's called dopamine. Social insecurity, anxiety, uncertainty - all cancel out the brains ability to produce dopamine in social settings. So then we feel unloved most of the time. We try to resolve this by looking for 'meaning' - i.e.: what it is I have to do to validate myself.

So we have a need for dopamine (love and acceptance), we are looking for validation (meaning) and we stumble across the BKs (an entire group of people with the same problem) and find ourselves inculted. They are 'talking our language' and are very convincing, because where else can you go where your insecurities, anxieties and meaninglessness are all elevated to valid philosophical discussion? And a connection with a 'god' who 'understands'?

I really don't believe there are any spooks involved. This is simply the pigeon getting trapped by the reward. Only to find the reward is poisoned. The 'high' the Honeymoon Period is based on the dopamine rush of finding love, acceptance, and meaning.

Please read my earlier submissions on 'psychological phenomenon common to BK's'. ERomain gave it a good rap - from my heart I believe it explains a lot of the psychology that trapped BKs in this cult and why we so suffer so much afterward.

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