Law and order

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Post by pbktrinityshiva » 21 Jun 2007

Its easy to say Kings are all tyrants etc 99% ... yes, it true historically in many cases ... but kings are there to rule and keep order.

The failings of the more modern kings is mostly what you are talking about also ... we do not have as much information about kings from much more ancient times.

Remove them and ensuing chaos ... is much, much, much worse. Kings do what they are designed to do ... keep order. Unity is power.

I'd love to see how democracy would be faring now, if it was say established a thousand or two thousand years ago in practical? ... Not very well judging on how its faring in such a small amount of time.

Yes, people have quite successfully lived in communal means but even then there is usually some kind of leader and give me examples that have lasted as long as India's kings have ruled.

All are not equal.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 21 Jun 2007

pbktrinityshiva wrote:Its easy to say Kings are all tyrants etc 99% ... yes, it true historically in many cases ... but kings are there to rule and keep order. The failings of the more modern kings is mostly what you are talking about also ... we do not have as much information about kings from much more ancient times. Remove them and ensuing chaos ... is much, much, much worse. Kings do what they are designed to do ... keep order. Unity is power.
Excuse me being so vicious in my response but I am trying to wake you and other BK types us.

What you write is garbage. We know SO MUCH about even ancient kings, nevermind modern ones. What you are saying is, "I know nothing, I will read nothing and it is not in the Murlis ... so it does not exist. Iw ill ignore even that which does exist in paper in front of me".

Kings do what they are designed to, murder, gather riches for themselves, and exploit the people whose land they steal.
I'd love to see how democracy would be fairing now, if it was say established a thousand or two thousand years ago in practical? ... Not very well judging on how its faring in such a small amount of time. Yes, people have quite successfully lived in communal means but even then there is usually some kind of leader and give me examples that have lasted as long as India's kings have ruled.
Which kings are we talking about? "India" never had a king until Victoria. And she was an Emperess not a king. Not even Asoka conquered all of India.

Give me an example of a King that did not murder, did not exploit their subjects and did not live a more comfortable life then his followers? I think Gandhi was probably the first one.

Democracy, or anarchy as it really was, is what fairly peaceably ruled all over the world before the despots arrived with superior weapons to murder and steal other people's lands. Those were not Kings, you are talking about organized criminal families. Mafias.

Generally, natural human order was based on small mobile family units. If Google or the Wikipedia cant help you, I will try dig out some books on history and anthropology if you need them. This line of thought is a good indication of the power envy, power ambition and power greed within BK thinking. The BK are out to conquer, just this time they are using a more subtle route to power. But it is still all about power.

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Lord of the Poor

Post by alladin » 21 Jun 2007

ex-l wrote:Again, I always thought God was the Lord of the Poor but I don't see quite as much effort and expense being made in that direction.
Of all the reading on this topic, this is the simple point I like the best. Whatever happened and will happen in the Golden Age, with benevolent kings playing altruistically that role. We cannot really verify, since there's no recorded history going back to those times. Whereas we have recorded history of very ancient civilizations dating back to 1500 BC or so, proving that they already had natural calamities, wars, violence, human and animal sacrifices, famine, slaves, meat eating, etc ... and kings were manipulating common people by instilling fear in them and claiming to have supernatural powers, to be priests and God-like as well as temporal rulers.

I don't know when and if ever the concept and implementation of democracy and equality between male and female citizens was ever present in India or other Asian countries. I am sort of re-discovering and appreciating Western ancient cultures, recently. Of course, as BKs, we were told that we should leave our roots aside and believe that there's only one culture for us. The Brahmin one, unquestionably, which is pervaded by Hindu concepts and the caste system; take it or leave it.

The problem is, referring to the sentence I quoted, that this system does not promote any yelding or giving others a chance. Even to do service or express their opinions and their qualities freely, regardless of Bap-Dada's indications which are pretty clear on that; be first in transforming yourself and being an example of good dharna, and put others in front!!

So, if these are the current sanskars shown, and reinforced by lots of BKs and especially from those "in power", which souls within the holy BK family of Sangam, will be entitled -since they passed the test of being egoless, receiving and putting into practise the proper instruction/education-to become benevolent, altruistic, paternalistic kings and queens of Golden Age? Definitely not the ones who are now elbowing all the time, whose main concern is acquiring and maintaining power by means instituted and incouraged by SS; the party-line you have to learn to stick to if you want a piece of the pie. Well, I never thought it royal to get in the rat race.

Another point I would like to churn about and discuss sometime, relating to this "law and order topic", is the "Master and Child" balance, starting from the fact that I do not think that at the Confluence we should allow vicious people to crush us repeatedly, thinking that we are being "humble".

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Post by fluffy bunny » 21 Jun 2007

Let me put another suggest to you all ...

What if the wounderous Golden Age is a pure world where everyone is equal. No one is superior to anyone else. There is no caste system.

Everyone's home is the same size, no one needs money, material objects such a diamonds and gold have no attraction because they litter the ground, no one needs clothes because it is a perfect climate ...

Would "God Shiva" be able to get any ignorant, greedy, power-obsessed, egotistical Shudra BK to make any efforts at all? Logically, why should they bother making efforts, doing anything more than anyone else, if every one is going to be wonderously equal?

So the god of the BKs invents a system of 'carrot and stick', i.e. fear and bribery, to get the monkey army to do his willing. What ever that is.

Is that so difficult to conceive as a possibility of what is going on?

(Actually, the BK God is quite communistic in that he mirrors in his credo, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". Who said that Shiva or Marx? It was Marx. Why then does Shiva reward the poor widow for her rupee more than the millionaire for his crore? Probably best to take that to the thread discussion on communism).

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Post by alladin » 22 Jun 2007

Right, and Sudama's myth confirms what God appreciates and expects from human souls and how he rewards them: a pure heart and intentions, and simplicity. No SS, pseudo-spiritual organization or guru, VIPs or multinational companies and Bank accounts or mafia can change God's mind or bribe him.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 22 Jun 2007

Another very 'communalistic' element of the BKWSU is the lack of personal property. This is also a very communist or alternative political theory. "Commwealth" ... everything belongs to Baba who actually does not exist and cannot exist in the material realm and therefore cannot actually own everything that is placed in his name. (I am not saying here that He does not exist, I am saying that he cannot exist in the material realm).

All of "Baba's" property is commonwealth for the entire family (... in theory but not if you are a PBK!). Personal ownership, the antithesis of communism, even of the body and mind is not encouraged and firmly checked; at least within the leadership. It could be the idea communist state.

I, personally, I am not a communist per se. I do not for one minute see why communism opposes God. Actually, there are other social and political models that are even more demanding of the individual. But, for heaven's sake, (note the clever pun) what does "swa-desh" mean!?!

Since when did it become "swa-desh with an incumbent Royal Family controlling a centralized bank, intelligence and propaganda machine to worship and serve"!?! That sounds to me a bit more like there has been a Stalinist Purge within the Party during which all the PBK have been sent to the Gulag camps ... Is such a system one that is being invoked for the future or a vision and habit from the past that we are trying to give up.

Swa-desh means self rule which is actually Anarchy. So Law and Order would arise from thoses that exhibit the balance of Law and Order over themselves, their mind and, we pressume, body. Many examples in history show petty human beings overturning great instutions on the basis on nothing more than their personal authority based on a balance of qualities rather than material wealth, power, position etc. The trumpet of truth bring down the Walls of Jericho etc.

I'd love to think that the real Golden Age was one of utter, natural simplicity and total equality in which nothing mattered and each only ruled the self and not others. I will wait for the Kripalani Klan to arrive in the Silver Age!

(I will admit I loathed the images of the formal Hindu Heaven with golden baubels and square Louis the XV gardens. But Golden Aged Gardening Tips are for another thread).

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Post by andrey » 23 Jun 2007

Dear brother ex-l,

I know swa-desh means "native". Swa means self and desh means country. Videsh means foreign. Our country of residence is the self, is it not?

It is very courageous supposition that one will be able to make up the BK knowledge to support the BK hierarchy. In the beginning, even this hierarchi was not there. There were no zones, zonal-in-charges etc.

Maybe feeling of equality can come wth the feeling that the soul is an actor. Sometimes we take life just bit too seriously. We are just actors, sometimes we play good part, sometimes we play bad part. It is only a good actor who can play the role of the bad one well. When the actor on the stage plays a part of happiness or suffering, it is just a play he play superficially. It is not for real. In reality, we are just actors.

That's why it is said that, "Ram becomes Ravan". It is also said that,"thet Kingdom of Ram is mine, so is not Kingdom if Ravan also mine?" Kingdom of Ravan is also called kingdom. Rule is done in different ways. For example, now people are ruled with physical power. You give them money and they work for you, or you issue and order and you count on the force of te voice so that the order is obeyed. No one likes the order but does out of some suppression. That's why the highest power is said to be the power of Yoga. It is the controlling of the vibrations.

For example, in an office today there is a director but he is only a director for name's sake. He does not rule at all. He asks about everything, the assistant does all the work, and he just takes the applause.

There is also a lot of meaning in nature. We are all dependent on it and it is now very uncontrolled and confused. Then everything comes under order. If we take seriously that in the beginning there are very few people, then Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit says there will be a lot of difference in our stage from now. Just imagine billions of people, the vibrations they emit, their presence, their thoughts and feeling and this small world which is smaller than a middle sized city, the whole world is this.

Then there is no property, mine - yours, no division. There is one world. Now ocean are divided, air is divided, land is divided. There are quarels about this. If your Father is the master of the world, then everything belongs to you too. In the kingdom, everything belongs to the king. Now we say - everything belongs to you, nothnig is mine and He says, "OK, just use yourself as a trustee". It is not a matter of what kind of property there is, but of the conciousness you use it with. ShivBaba does not need property and does not possess it. It is a way to become free of the burden of everything, to become like him.

There is a lot of power in the influence. For example, when something happens now and because of the media it spreads and an atmosphere is created. Here also some ideas come and change people's minds.

If souls are themselves incarnations of peace then why is there quarrel amongs them? Maybe it is something that happens between them? For example, if an ordinary soldier goes and talks to the General like he talks to his fellow soldier, it will not seem right. That's why it is said that it will be Godly law and order. Everyone will sit on the seat of their own position. Now we don't know who is who, my role his role.

BTW, is it self respect to go and seek help from people. Why should we be any less? We should only compare to God.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 23 Jun 2007

I am learning to look at the whole BK thing not from the fairy story angle, and I apologise for the deliberately gouging nature of that statement, but from the simple, rational, historical framework of the world that surrounded Lekhraj Kirpalani and infuenced him. We are sold the idea of a pure soul descending from the highest heaven untarnished, delivering a totally unique message and going away. It is not true. The mediums are not without influence, the environment is not demands and the subjects of this souls interest are not without limitations that must be pandered too. Including offering "carrots and sticks" to encourage them one.

I use Swadesh in the way it is used in the real world and most recentely popularised by the swadeshi (self-sufficiency). Swadesh, to me, and is most commonly understood to mean "my country", or "own country" and went along hand in hand with Swa-Raj, which might have been a better word to use. I think videshi or "not of one's country" but it is good to see that you are studying Hindi.

So, I was trying to argue "my country" not "I, a subject of someone else's kingdom". Yes, I can spin on my heels and look at the spiritual analogy of our bodies being out countries ... and how do we see ourselves and the BK families managing those countries?

As a historical note, the Swadeshi Movement was successful economic strategy aimed at removing the British Empire from power and to improve economic conditions in India for the poor through following principles of swadeshi (self-sufficiency). It is known, not rumored, that Lekhraj Kirpalani and the BKs were not just aware of Gandhi but their minds and world colored by them.

This is, I argue, why and where the use of "Swaraj" and "Swadesh" come from in the early days, they were attempting to appeal to the minds of their market ... just as the BKs are today by adopting concepts such as, "The Laws of Attraction", and "Self Management Leadership", that have no reference in the literature.

Virendra Dev Dixit might be being more faithful to the literature, but he also is not limited by the demands ... and susceptibilities his society. For example, there is no point selling Gyan on spiritual equality, commonwealth and a lack of materialism when all the poor people of India want is gold, cars, music, nice smells and comforts. Exactly what Baba offers them. And there is ever reason to NOT say what easily might get him killed ... even if it is true.

India, despite all its modern trappings still remains a country with a feudal mindset, "Yatha Raja Thatha Praja" (like ruler, like people). That is our enemy in this equation, that is what the holy spooks are wrestling with.

The strategies of the swadeshi movement involved boycotting British products, reviving homr-made crafts and products, resign from government employment; refuse to pay taxes; and forsake British titles and honours. It was a key focus of Mahatma Gandhi who described it as the soul of Swaraj (self rule). This must, I am sure you will have to agree, some symbolic value within Gyan. Who are "the British", if we are agreed who are the Islamicists with Gyan?

Whereas the Swadeshi movement attempted to fight the real or imagined destructive forces coming from outside India's borders, the spirit of swadesh fights debilitating forces within the country.

Political swaraj, and I do not see why it does not apply to us now on the spiritual level, is seen as a kind of Individualist Anarchism, a stateless society, as according to Gandhi the overall impact of the state on people is harmful. The state he said, was a "soulless machine" and I also ask if the Feudal Lords of the Confluence Age can avoid that criticism of their creation too?

As you know, I do not presently buy into the carrot and stick of the BK's god and his political theories either. So you do not have no worry. If it is to come ... eventually ... I am not coming for sure! Have a nice time with the BKs and say, "Hi!" from me.

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Post by pbktrinityshiva » 25 Jun 2007

There are differing opinions on the history of the world.

You bring your own judgements to that and i would not necessarily agree when presented with the same historical facts. I happen to think humans, including kings, try to do the right thing by their subjects but it doesn't always turn out that way. Making a blanket statement that kings are this or that i cant accept.

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Post by andrey » 25 Jun 2007

If the world is like a family where people interact with love, then one is ready to do everything for the one he loves. Also if we take an example of a family where only the Father works, he buys everything, there is not the case that one says, this is mine, i have bought it with my money. There is no intention of separation.

Everything that comes comes from one place, is distributed to all, and if we can imagine that nature will take care, then it may be a good place. No work. There is also something very nice in this that the one who plays a part of the highest one plays also a part of lowest one.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 25 Jun 2007

pbktrinityshiva wrote:There are differing opinions on the history of the world. You bring your own judgements to that and I would not necessarily agree when presented with the same historical facts.
Well them please clarify.

I, honestly, try to avoid subjective "opinion" and present a "balance of probability" based on facts and experts' opinions. I am not blind to either controversies nor anomalies. In some cases, like the BKWSU re-writing history, we can be sure of objective facts which I much prefer.

So, please, propose alternative "facts". Let's have a look over the topics on history and address them from a Gyani point of view.

When I think about kings, I think about individuals like the Maharajas that had 20 odd Rolls Royces, some with diamonds and gold in them, when the children of their people were dying for the lack of clean water and sanitation ... a model for 99.9% of royal families the world over for all of known history. (a tiny few like Asoka showing some reform after gaining sufficient wealth).
andrey wrote:Everything that comes comes from one place, is distributed to all, and if we can imagine that nature will take care, then it may be a good place. No work.
Fine, andrey, so let us genuinely envisage the social and political structure of a Golden Age, or how law and order works now, but in practical ... or are you just told as PBKs to leave it all to Virendra Dev Dixit in exchange for "remembering" him?

I am sorry to say that I feel BKs disappear off into a drugged up dream world at ths stage. Gyan being told as a fairy story at night to put them to sleep. "Once upon a time ... evil witch etc ... then the Prince and Princess lived happily ever after. The End."

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Post by paulkershaw » 25 Jun 2007

andrey wrote:For example, in an office today there is a director but he is only a director for name's sake. He does not rule at all. He asks about everything, the assistant does all the work, and he just takes the applause.
Hey Andrey, Well Done - I think you've just hit the nail on the head indeed. It must be wonderful to be the director in this case, eh? He never has to take the blame or responsibility but gets all the credit ... and a really high salary too probably. Anyway it will be much higher than the assistants get, won't it?

In Gyan, one is not supposed to enjoy praise but rather refer everything back to 'Bap' or "Dada". So, the praise that Dada gets is just like the director that you mention ... all the assistants do the work but the director get the applause. It is no wonder to me any more as to what is happening on the side-lines nowadays. And its no wonder either that the director keeps his position going, is it?
Everything that comes comes from one place, is distributed to all
Read the posts about the BK accumulated wealth and then lets see if we can agree on this point you make. Communism also was supposed to work this way but did not.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 25 Jun 2007

paulkershaw wrote:Communism also was supposed to work this way but did not.
All BKs should get first class airfare and driven around in Mercedes. That is real spiritual communism. Or at least after we have established a vaste lower caste to pay for it.

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Post by andrey » 26 Jun 2007

Dear brother paul,

I just meant that ruling is done in different ways. You know in a group there is a formal leader and non-formal leader. One is a face and another is the real leader. Because the world is like this now, some poeple get the credit due to other people. They control others. This is their work, to control others by force. Just because they have the title they keep others under the foot of their ego. Others may be more knowledgefull, capable and work lot more, but have to play the submittion.

It would be natural that the one on the top is really the most virtuous one. You know that nowadays there are many factors. If you are close to the boss, then you are OK. It makes a difference which mood the boss is in. Also one may keep a secretary because she is beautiful and not because she is capable. Workplace is a flirtplace more then a place to work. One is eager to meet people to talk to them etc. He likes some clients better.

BK world or PBK world today is not the image of what heaven is supposed to be. Heaven that the Supreme Soul creates is heaven for 2500 years. Not heaven of bricks and stones. Heaven for the soul.

I just meant that in any community unity can exist. Thre nature is provider there is no other provider. As the king so the subjects. They all feel like masters of heaven. Maybe there are different souls also, but someway they don't have jelousy for the position of others. Their attention is on the self. This brings happiness. Heaven means to go into the self, in soul-conciousness. There all are soul-concious, not position-concious, time-conciousness etc.

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Post by paulkershaw » 28 Jun 2007

andrey wrote:It would be natural that the one on the top is really the most virtuous one. You know that nowadays there are many factors. If you are close to the boss, then you are OK. It makes a difference which mood the boss is in. Also one may keep a secretary because she is beautiful and not because she is capable. Workplace is a flirtplace more then a place to work. One is eager to meet people to talk to them etc. He likes some clients better.
Oh come on, Andrey, where in your head do you live? You probably are thinking that this is the way the world should be but generally is not the case at all. In most companies, the 'director' you've been referring to is not virtuous at all, but on the surface may appear to be. They've got there either because of their abilities to do the job or/and because they've held in there long enough and been tough enough to keep swimming above everyone else vying for the same position. Unless you are saying that the one at the top SHOULD BE the most virtuous?

In the case of many heads of companies in corporate South Africa, for instance, there are many people being placed into directorship positions simply because of the colour of their skin only. Many of these people walk around with an attitude of righteousness whilst their companies crumble around them, simply because they have not been afforded the education or because they do not have the experience to run said company ...

And as to your comment about work being a flirtplace more than a place for work, this is just a generalisation methinks, or something you've learnt yourself from someone or somewhere else. It is NOT like that at all in many work places around the world.

So come on, stop living in a 'dream' and see the world for not only what it can become but what is actually is too. The world is a big place indeed. You quote: I just meant that in any community unity can exist. Agree with this but not with your method of creating this unity, true happiness means different things to dfferent communities of people.

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