Law and order

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andrey
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Law and order

Post by andrey » 14 Jun 2007

In a Japanese film a man goes with his wife in front of the emperor about some issue. He made some mistake, maybe then the emperor tells him he should go home and kill his children. He was not happy but headed to do it. When he returned, the children were not there at home - maybe they are killed already he thought. But it came up this was only a test. They were alive hidden in a secret room in the hall. They came out and all were happy.

Then in the military a single man faces 100 men and commands them and they obey. I have been thinking, why should i obey him? i can always not obey. If two people make a cospiration they will overpower this one man for sure - the so called commander, but also there is this sense that if there is no discipline, law and order. If everyone does as he pleases, so many people cannot live together peacefully.

Where does this power to command and to obey come from? Who teaches the commander how to command? How do we learn how and what to obey, why to obey? Is it always due to fear of some punishment or because of some promised reward?

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john
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Re: law and order

Post by john » 14 Jun 2007

andrey wrote:Then in the military a single man faces 100 men and commands them and they obey. I have been thinking, why should I obey him, I can always not obey?
If you disobeyed maybe you would be killed yourself or court martialed.

If you join the military, you sign up to defend your country, and if that involves killing others then that is what you do.

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Post by andrey » 16 Jun 2007

Yes, it is the fear of punishment, but there is also some other feeling of ... reason and also some feeling of ... power, or even some happiness that you are just one of the many. You are hidden and somehow protected. You all do one and the same thing. This is very innate to the human nature the herd feeling. Individualism is also innate. Maybe balance is the key. The conciousness of the soul also develops such herd feeling is it not, some common perception that includes everyone and gives feeling of closeness to one another.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 16 Jun 2007

john wrote:If you disobeyed maybe you would be killed yourself or court martialed.
And what is the karmic difference between a mercinary or a volunteer who fight out of professional choice and a conscript who has no choice?

What spiritual legality is there to suggest that one bunch of ruling despots, whether genetic (Royal Families) or political "owns" the life of those that live within the geographic boundaries of the land they claim is their property?

To make that clear ... how and why does karma observe imaginary lines in the sands that says, this brother is mine and his karma is bound to my army when that brother is his and his karma belongs to my neighbouring nation's army ... even though they are literally blood relatives, e.g. Kurds in Turkey/Iraq and hundred of others.

Why does the BKWSU/PBK suck up to, and believe so strongly, in the status quo or Kali Yugi world, its kings and despots? How can BKs pretend to blind to the real agendas being the wars that young men and women are thrown into, e.g. the pride and greed of their leaders?

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Post by pbktrinityshiva » 16 Jun 2007

ex-l ... who knows what you'd do if given absolute power?

It easy to judge the ruler for his faults ... and not easy to rule. The subject is a subject by their own acceptance, for better or worse.

BK/PBKs do not just believe in the 'status quo' ... it's just that it's the reality that eventuates ... less powerful souls become influenced and tied to more power souls. Its going to happen whether the powerful or less powerful soul likes it.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 17 Jun 2007

pbktrinityshiva wrote:ex-l ... who knows what you'd do if given absolute power?
Oh, God, the answer one to that one is easy ...
  • HIT THE BIG RED BUTTON WITH "FIRE" WRITTEN ON THE TOP OF IT AND END IT ALL!!!
There are no half-measures here, ;-).

We might be headed off topic here but I appreciate your honesty. What I have realised over the last few months of contemplating on this forum that the BK experience is heavily missold as a "peace of mind" experience, where really it is far, far more about "lessons in power". I am remembering a quote from The Godfather, "Real power is not given, it is taken" and am wondering if I can apply it to Andrey's question or the Gyani experience. The power to command is taught, learnt and often inherited, I think it is largely "Yukti". Devices. No great secret. Speak in a certain way, move in a certain way, learning to hold one's composure, grabbing opportunities and experience othes are afraid to. Few empower others ...

If folks do not get that then they are missing out on the 9/10ths of the experience of Gyan.

Personally, I separate the BKs and PBKs as being quite distinct in nature and philosophy. I do not have any direct experience of the PBKs with which to make any observations but their appear to be quite a different kind of animal.

I believe there are "more powerful" souls that realise the way things are and think to themselves, "I will have a bit of that"; and there are "more powerful" souls that realize the way things are and think to themselves, "I am not having that going on and I am going to take it to bits for the sake of the whole ...".

History is peppered with far less of the latter but they have had disproportionate influence, your Gandhis, Lao Tzus, Rumis, Socrates etc. The former working to balance, oppose, challenge and deconstruct. I find the former to be of a second class nature and am more attracted to the latter. There are surely too many compromises to be made clambering up the slippery pole ... and this to me identifies the BKWSU.

It appears to me that the experience of being a BK in the BKWSU is less a peace of mind experience and more about juggling and jossling about to find one's level in the pecking order. Also, if you look at their (BK) portrayed perfection, what is it ... the Indian caste system with golden bells and whistles on, right from the Emperors in Palaces down to the cremators. I guess my heaven always far more natural and eglatarian in theory. Everyone equals with no need for artifice.

I may be way wrong on this ... tack, skillful diplomacy, softly-softly-chatchee-monkey and sucking up to Kali Yugi IPs, VIPs and ruling castes might be their god's way, in the mean while ... who know what role God has held back for me and my kind!?! (Answers on the back of a postcard to ... thanks). Again, I always thought God was the Lord of the Poor but I don't see quite as much effort and expense being made in that direction.

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Post by pbktrinityshiva » 17 Jun 2007

Yes, I agree ... Well, I mean there is a difference from taking power on the basis on subjugating and suppressing souls or taking the power in a spiritual inheritance (which no soul should really feel any animosity too) ...

A case of weakness on the oppressive soul I would guess? They cant keep their kingdom with spiritual controlling power/brotherly love so they move to the physical level of power/means to do so ... so they are lower class kings/rulers.

Although I admit the lines are blurry and I do not fully understand how it works to be quite honest.

I am the same as you in that I refuse/d to do the sucking up to VIP etc which so many do ... This is why I left the BKs fairly quickly. The difference in how souls were treated for me was too much to bear because I saw others thought this subjugation and favoritism quite normal. I felt like my hopes that I had finally found people who were like me were dashed, they were the same as the rest of the world. Same in the PBK world I suppose but I get a more brotherly and homely feeling there.

Then again if a BK or PBK soul has genuine power, knowledge and purity and is humble about it, how can I not recognise their potential high status? I love the idea of kingship and I guess I am a Neo-Con of sorts :). A good true kingship that is ... the kind where the king loves his people more than anything and they follow him out of love.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 17 Jun 2007

pbktrinityshiva wrote:I love the idea of kingship and I guess I am a Neo-Con of sorts :). A good true kingship that is ... the kind where the king loves his people more than anything and they follow him out of love.
It is fair to say that all throughout nature, at least mammalian nature and the higher animals, hierarchies are the natural order, I would not argue witht hat. But generally they are localised within small breeding circles.

It appears only to be humankind that is possessed enough to want to be King or Emperor of the entire World. Sadly, I guess my vision is colored by 2,500 years of bad examples! One can learn a lot about human psychology and sociology by watching the monkeys that live and climb all over the temples of South East Asia.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 18 Jun 2007

A related issue has arisen over in the topic of; Carlos Castaneda, another cult leader (see also narcotics). It is related to the religious/shamanistic use of psychoactive drugs, some of what are acceptable under laws and some not.

My related question is;
  • who gives one individual, or a group of individuals, the right to decree what others are or are not allowed to do .. whether in the BK families or the world a large?
In the area above, history is clear that other competitive, destructive and self-elected religio-political organizations decided that they have the power to lay down the law over others. Generally under intimidation, even to the point of the threat of death.

Obviously, I am talking about the Holy Roman Catholic Church/Empire mainly here in, both Europe and the Americas. Other religious seem to be more lenient and leave the matter up to individual's conscience and karma.

It is even interesting to look at this from a Gyani point of view. If we accept the theory that suggests Dadi Janki and the 'Western Order of Brahma Kumaris' are related as seed souls of the "BK-style" Judeo-Christian branch, or the Madhubanwasis are "Islamic" in their nature, does this then relate to the way they feel that they are empowered by divine right to lay down the law over other BK souls ... as we are seeing in the legal threats being made elsewhere and on this forum. (e.g. BK 'Colonel' Hansa Raval apparently calling in the Pentagon and US Department of Defense to help her censor web journalists).

Personally, I am starting to wonder if I am more akin to the East, or even "Buddhist" tradition of the BKWSU, which is more intellectual and lenient. I am remembering it was Asoka that united most of India after a terrible war but then converted it to Buddhism and then allowed it to enjoy many years of peace. See his "Conquest Edict", of 257 BC.

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Post by andrey » 19 Jun 2007

If law is in one hand, then it will be much easier. Now laws are created by many human beings. In comparison to that we can have only one Godly law, because is god one or are there many gods? There is only one God who gives only one law (Shrimat). Law is also not something for restrictions. If regulations are good life will be good.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 19 Jun 2007

andrey wrote:In comparison to that we can have only one Godly law, because is god one or are there many gods?
Without a doubt, there are many gods in operation and many, many, many cases and incidents that neither Shiva Baba or Virendra Dev Dixit have time, experience or capacity to deal with.

Even if every individual on Earth were to follow Shiva Baba's Shrimat to the letter, there would still be wars and confusion because it is conflicting and confusing. And it is probably designed to be so ... a prime case of divide and rule.

I know that it makes you feel good to convince yourself by repeating your mantra and I know that the complexities of real world are difficult and hurtful. But that is the way it is. It is ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

I ask you the same as I asked the Christians who beleived only Christ could save before the End of the World ... what about the folks out in the Jungle, the deserts, the distant islands ... why do they not get a chance to know? how can they learn and earn their fortune? what relevance does Gyan have to their life?

How can one Law fit every environment?

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Post by bansy » 19 Jun 2007

I thought the only law there is is the law of nature. And even God cannot prevent earthquakes and volcanoes etc.

If God made man and man made law, then God made law for man. And man made God for him to make law for man. Just going in circles.

From Ants to Zebra, Ameobas and Zephcificulus (I made up this z-word plant name :P ), what law to they abide to ? Do they need God and do they need to make laws ?

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Post by fluffy bunny » 19 Jun 2007

bansy wrote:I thought the only law there is is the law of nature. And even God cannot prevent earthquakes and volcanoes etc.
And even "He" is "bound by Drama", the BKs say ... so what is this infinite law ... what are its extents and limits ... how far does it reach and his stop ... who are the masters and creators of that law ... how much are we taught about it?

It sounds like he is categorically a Limited God after all.

(Zephcificulus Ameobas was, as everyone knows, a Cuban Jazz musician but please do not allow that to distract from the seriousness of the above post.)

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Post by andrey » 21 Jun 2007

If we take the Murli seriously as words of God then it makes difference. Even in this rule we have to obey laws, they don't ask you whether you like them or not. In the military, you are not asked whether you'll like this or not. Orders are given that you have to obey. As is the king, so are the subjects. We can only hope there is a good king for us, that rules well, so that we'll be in good condition then.

Now there is no hope in the rule of people, because they have no special training of ruling. They are just like you and me, and everyone things he'll do better then them. There is defamation of the government in every house. They are considered to be even the most corrupt.

There is no defamation for Lakshmi and Narayan. People could have been contented under their rule. If there are such examples that they are such that you like to accept their rule, you submit yourself. You like to serve yourself. But is is also said that it is different, this new rule, new law and order of independancy and freedom. No one controls or manipulates anyone, all feel like their are masters.

Now, in this world, everyone tries to make you dependant, with money, power, fellings etc. There nature is provider by itself. In the familly, also no one is told what to do. Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit says that even today there are such famillies that run spontaneously. Everyone knows what to do himself and does with love. There is harmony. Deities understand hints. They don't have to be told what to do.

It is said in the Murli that kingdom is being established. In the prayers of Christianity and books, the Godly kingdom and kingdom of heaven are mentioned and what spectacular descriptions there are for them. It is now that heaven is established. With his acts man creates hell and God creates heaven. Maybe it will be even better then we think it may be.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 21 Jun 2007

What I think you and Virendra Dev Dixit do not seem to understand is that 'democracy' is not just "rule of the people over the people" but it is 'the accountability of the leadership towards those that they lead'. Accountability that most to all Royalty ignore. Likewise that democracy has existed since Ancient Greece at least and functioned very well. Try comparing to feudal India.

Your view of history is based on fairy story beginnings and fairy story endings and even in the in between section, e.g. Copper and Iron Age, you and your Virendra Dev Dixit - like rabid medieval right wingers - appear to saying that all Royalty had Divine Right to rule and that feudal monarcies were better than any other system of living.

Strangely, it shows a complete ignorance of social and anthropological history where many different successful systems existed. Mostly based around communalism. What superiority the invariably syphilitic, inbred, murderous, thieves that account for 99.9% of all historic monarchs had, I have no idea. The one single virtue that appear to excel at was murdering and stealing, with a bit of trickery and lies thrown in ... which they called diplomacy. Oh, that and mind control of their fearful subjects.

Your and Virendra Dev Dixit's simplistic view (I am not blaming Shiva Baba here) also betrays a illusionary romance with Royalty .. an illusion to suggest that any tinpot despot, that killed off some other tinpot despot, and announced himself to be "King of the Heap" actually "ruled" the people whose land he stole. They did not rule. The people just got on as they always did on a communal basis. The Kings just existed to punished and exploit them with taxes to fund more campaigns and fill his coffers whilst offering the payers of the taxes no representational rights. Only a few were more than ambitious thieves.

Get real Andrey.

BTW, we discussed - in theory - how a solider killing did not incur the karma. The karma went to the leader. So what is the karma of a king that causes the death of 100,000s, or even Millions, for the sake of this madness? How do they ever pay that karma off?

Easy the BK said, "it was just their karma to be kiled" and falls fast asleep again ...

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