COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

To discuss the BK and PBK versions relating to the progressive differential development of BK & PBK ideologies or theologies.
mbbhat
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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by mbbhat » 16 Sep 2015

Nothing special in these, as MUCH MORE than these have already been highlighted and explained CLEARLY in the forum, BUT SAME HAVE NOT BEEN UNDERSTOOD IN THE CORRECT CONTEXT by the PBKs, AS YET.
But, thank you for adding them also, EXCEPT THAT THEY SHOULD BE UNDERSTOOD IN THE CORRECT CONTEXT, AS CLARIFIED SEVERAL TIMES EARLIER IN THIS FORUM BY MANY OTHERS ALSO!

sita
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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by sita » 16 Sep 2015

So, do you accept that remembrance is not possible without Brahma?

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by mbbhat » 16 Sep 2015

sita wrote:So, do you accept that remembrance is not possible without Brahma?
Again you got stuck just here. See here- viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1991&p=28474&hilit=clearest#p28474

Make your intellect even broader. Go through, and STUDY, even more points. You might have already heard or read superficially.
But, if not, you may go through the following attached file.
Attachments
yaad_amrutvela-chart-dharna.docx
(130.31 KiB) Downloaded 157 times

sita
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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by sita » 16 Sep 2015

I agree there are many points that may even seem contradictory, but at the end of the day we also have to make up our mind. Hence I asked if you have made up your mind.

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by mbbhat » 16 Sep 2015

I agree there are many points that may even seem contradictory, but at the end of the day we also have to make up our mind. Hence I asked if you have made up your mind.
They are NOT contradictory - BUT PBKs make them APPEAR CONTRADICTORY by REVERSING their INTERPRETATIONS to suit their philosophy, since they are NOT ABLE to peruse these points by BEING AWARE of the THREE ASPECTS of TIME or by being 'Trikaldarshi'. They are meant to CATER to different levels of SPIRITUAL STAGE & EFFORT. One may try any of the methods indicated there, ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN INDIVIDUAL CURRENT LEVEL OF SPIRITUAL STAGE & EFFORT. As one ELEVATES SPIRITUALLY to the HIGHEST level, one will then fit to what is said here - viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1991#p28474

This is what I believe.

BTW, do you now agree that to force someone to remember ShivBaba only in Chariot is wrong?

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by sita » 16 Sep 2015

Do I force? There are claims that remembering in a body is wrong, so the discussion is about that.
They are meant to CATER to different levels of SPIRITUAL STAGE & EFFORT. One may try any of the methods indicated there, ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN INDIVIDUAL CURRENT LEVEL OF SPIRITUAL STAGE & EFFORT.
Can he? How can you practice remembrance in a body?

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by mbbhat » 17 Sep 2015

Do I force?
PBK theory is - one should remember ShivBaba in the body of the Chariot itself, and all other forms of 'Yaad' or remembrance are wrong, is it not?
There are claims that remembering in a body is wrong, so the discussion is about that.
I have not heard a Murli point saying remembering ShivBaba in a body is wrong. Show Murli points, if you have.
How can you practice remembrance in a body?
Already put the views in the topic "accurate Yaad" or "accurate remembrance" in this forum. You may read from there.

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by sita » 17 Sep 2015

PBK theory is - one should remember ShivBaba in the body of the Chariot itself, and all other forms of 'Yaad' or remembrance are wrong, is it not?
Remembrance is called natural love. "Should" would not do. Yes, someone could remember someone with hatred, but there is no benefit in this. It is not about wrong and right. Everything leads to something. The matter is whether what we do is in line with what we like to achieve. The discussion going on is in two directions. What is our aim and the method to apply for it. We are still not in agreement whether we are to become deities in this birth or in the the next. The matter about the method is then secondary.

Surely, we can also remember a point, we can also imagine some place, we could also remember the soul like a thumb or God as a flame. What will be the result? In the Murli it is said that Yaad should be easy, like the mother who remembers her child. We don't need to sit, play music, mute the light. It should be natural. You cannot force what is natural, you cannot force the tree growing - you can plant seeds and provide sunshine, water and air.

Each one has his own mind. How do we form an opinion? If we listen to hearsay, it is what others have planted in us. But from the Murli we have nice seeds for churning, because for Yaad we need Gyan. Then how far something is along or against the Murli is to be judged, because Yaad should be accurate, otherwise result will not be accurate. I think having God in a human form is the most accurate. We have had different conceptions for God to practice for many births, these led us to nowhere. In the Confluence Age he comes in a human form.
I have not heard a Murli point saying remembering ShivBaba in a body is wrong. Show Murli points, if you have.
I have also not heard, but as far as I can understand, for eg. Admin thinks that what we do is 'inaccurate'. Leave alone the matter if it is a 'fraud'. Suppose the supreme Father has a Chariot, then remembering there would be accurate.
Already put the views in the topic "accurate Yaad" or "accurate remembrance" in this forum. You may read from there.
Please, spare me. These are 17 pages to read. You can tell in short. Suppose a newcomer is there. How can he practice remembrance in the body, when there is no current body like Chariot. He cannot. He can remember the moments spent in the Avyakt BapDada meetings, but in his daily life his mind will go up above, not to some personality here on this earth, because now there is no corporeal Brahma. So we have direct link with ShivBaba now. But is this in accordance with the Murli - having direct link with ShivBaba without Brahma?

Yes, we could imagine Brahma Baba in the Subtle Region and the Supreme Father in him (let's leave aside the discussion whether it is accurate or not according to the Murli), but our aim is to receive jeevanmukti via mukti. Whatever we practice for a long time will stay. If we practice attaining, experiencing liberation whilst in the body, this is what we will have created like a sanskar for the future. If we remember Avyakt Brahma without a body we will become the same. Do we like to leave our body? No, we don't. We like to leave our consciousness of the body, and for this we need an example of a soul in a body who has no consciousness of the body.

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by mbbhat » 17 Sep 2015

sita wrote:Please, spare me. These are 17 pages to read. You can tell in short.
You better read from there. In future, I will make it better and post a sub topic as- "Different levels of Yaad", then will give link.
Suppose a newcomer is there. How can he practice remembrance in the body, when there is no current body like Chariot. He cannot.
It is PRACTICALLY and VERY EASILY possible! I had not seen any CORPOREAL Chariot or even Dadis. Still my Yaad was right/same/fruitful. I visited madhuban only after 4 years after coming to gyaan. Even after visiting BapDada in Madhuban in Dadi Gulzar, my Yaad remained same/fruitful/PROGRESSIVE, even today.

Murli point also says- There are 'bandhelis' or 'mothers in bondage' who have not even seen Baba with their corporeal eyes, but CAN remember REMEMBER BABA BETTER than many others.

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by sita » 17 Sep 2015

Murli point also says- There are 'bandhelis' or 'mothers in bondage' who have not even seen Baba with their corporeal eyes, but CAN remember REMEMBER Baba BETTER than many others.
Yes, but they know Baba is there somewhere in corporeal, and they cannot see him with corporeal eyes due to some worldly bondages, and not because he is of/in some other world.

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by mbbhat » 18 Sep 2015

sita wrote:Yes, but they know Baba is there somewhere in corporeal, and they cannot see him with corporeal eyes due to some worldly bondages, and not because he is of/in some other world.
Your comment is silly. I did not say anything about the world. I just said- seeing the CORPOREAL Chariot with CORPOREAL eyes is not necessary for right or ACCURATE Yaad. If one is able to understand Gyan in right or CORRECT perspective, then that is enough.*

If the meeting of corporeal increases a person's perceiving capability, then only such meeting has value. That is why Baba has also said- there is benefit in meeting Baba personally. Baba has also said- it is enough if you see/meet Baba/Chariot once.

Now, you may again ask another silly question like- where is Chariot now, in corporeal, after 1969?
So, I am replying in advance - Initially it was through corporeal body of Brahma Baba (an intelligent soul can PERCEIVE this VERY WELL, IF IT IS IN HIS/HER FORTUNE), now it is through the instrumental corporeal body of Gulzar Dadi (an intelligent soul can ALSO PERCEIVE this VERY WELL, IF IT IS IN HIS/HER FORTUNE).

* - If there is no ability to understand the Knowledge in the CORRECT PERSPECTIVE, then even seeing/meeting the Chariot in the corporeal** is of ABSOLUTELY no use.
Like some say- Virendra Dev Dixit is Chariot, but totally WITHOUT ANY PRACTICAL proof of ACTUAL INDIVIDUALISTIC EXPERIENCE of PERSONAL SPIRITUAL PROGRESS, which can be CONFIRMED by the INDIVIDUAL HIMSELF/HERSELF DIRECTLY, other than just getting AWED by the ADULTERATED EXPANSION of Knowledge - 'kanras' or hearsay - BLINDLY BELIEVING or CONSIDERING same to have UNLIMITED significance, originating from God! An example is given here- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... fish#p4134

** - Even a corporeal meeting with Brahma Baba, or an 'Avyakt' meeting through Gulzar Dadi would NOT benefit anyone, if a person's perceiving capability is dull/poor/absent!

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by arjun » 18 Sep 2015

mbbhat wrote:* - If there is no ability to understand The Knowledge in the CORRECT PERSPECTIVE, then even seeing/meeting the Chariot in the corporeal** is of ABSOLUTELY no use.
Like some say- Veerendra Dev Dixit is Chariot, but totally WITHOUT ANY PRACTICAL proof of ACTUAL INDIVIDUALISTIC EXPERIENCE of PERSONAL SPIRITUAL PROGRESS, which can be CONFIRMED by the INDIVIDUAL HIMSELF/HERSELF DIRECTLY, other than just getting AWED by the ADULTERATED EXPANSION of Knowledge - 'kanras' or hearsay - BLINDLY BELIEVING or CONSIDERING same to have UNLIMITED significance, originating from God! An example is given here- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... fish#p4134
You say that you get angry on being provoked by the PBKs. But I have been observing since many months that even if PBKs are not replying or participating in any particular discussion you don't let go any chance to criticize the PBKs and advance knowledge. The above paragraph is an example how you have learnt to make comments like golden heart. It is such unprovoked criticism of PBKs by you that spoils the atmosphere of the forum and the consequent loss of interest of other members in discussions. And I am sure you will give a very big comment on each and every word used by me. You may take your own time for such task.
So, goodbye for a few days. Om Shanti.

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by sita » 18 Sep 2015

You say that you get angry on being provoked by the PBKs. But I have been observing since many months that even if PBKs are not replying or participating in any particular discussion you don't let go any chance to criticize the PBKs and Advanced Knowledge. The above paragraph is an example how you have learnt to make comments like golden heart. It is such unprovoked criticism of PBKs by you that spoils the atmosphere of the forum and the consequent loss of interest of other members in discussions. And I am sure you will give a very big comment on each and every word used by me. You may take your own time for such task. So, goodbye for a few days. Om Shanti.
I think golden heart does edit mbbhat's posts.

Mbbhat, I see, you mean, we don't have to see in order to remember. I agree. We need knowledge. As soon as we receive the recognition that somewhere in some form God has come and is doing such and such a task, our intellect will run and stick there. Even if our mind gets concentrated for some time during Avyakt meeting, meanwhile it gets lost, because no one knows where this Paramdham is, it is everywhere around, where exactly in this everywhere is our supreme Father, how to discriminate. There is no way. Souls are points of lights alike. Even if we imagine a point of light to remember, this is just abstract, it can be any soul. God having a concrete, practical form, facing the troubles we face on earth and becoming an example of how to be above matter whilst being in matter, is something we need now, because we are to become this now. Brahma Baba did not become a guide, he did not take others with him. Even if he is there somewhere, he is waiting for us, but we need someone to walk along with us.

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by mbbhat » 19 Sep 2015

arjun wrote:You say that you get angry on being provoked by the PBKs.
I have not said so. You have been again assuming some such lies. Just check your posts in this week.
arjun wrote: But I have been observing since many months that even if PBKs are not replying or participating in any particular discussion you don't let go any chance to criticize the PBKs and Advanced Knowledge.
Again another lie. Sita/PBK is commenting about posts in detail, is it not?
sita wrote: Brahma Baba did not become a guide, he did not take others with him.
Already discussed this in detail. Provided many links in the BK forum, with Murli points. Just mentioning again. - http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... &start=160

You are just repeating the same claims which GO COMPLETELY AGAINST THE Murli POINTS (FROM THE RIGHT CONTEXT).

Now, we can see a clear irony here. PBKs on the other hand are totally dependent on the words that came through mouth of DL and Gulzar Dadi (which they fully believe as words of just DL). Even then they say Brahma Baba did not become a guide. Is this not hopeless stage of PBKs to give such comments when they depend on words of B Baba and say he is not a guide AT THE SAME TIME? [Of course, ShivBaba is the first guide and second one is Brahma Baba and others are number-wise].
Even if he is there somewhere, he is waiting for us, but we need someone to walk along with us.
You need, need, need, ... corporeal, corporeal, corporeal.... It seems that you or PBKs wish to be handicapped eternally, and do not ever wish to learn to walk by your own selves, for eternity.

But, that is also accurate, as per drama.

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Re: COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"

Post by sita » 19 Sep 2015

Now, we can see a clear irony here. PBKs on the other hand are totally dependent on the words that came through mouth of DL and Gulzar Dadi (which they fully believe as words of just DL). Even then they say Brahma Baba did not become a guide. Is this not hopeless stage of PBKs to give such comments when they depend on words of B Baba and say he is not a guide AT THE SAME TIME? [Of course, ShivBaba is the first guide and second one is Brahma Baba and others are number-wise].
Avyakt Vanis are great material, they are narrations of a very elevated soul. Baba clarifies matters of the scriptures, films, songs, proverbs, customs and traditions, newspapers, worldly affairs; obviously among these the clarification of the Avyakt Vanis will have priority.
You need, need, need, ... corporeal, corporeal, corporeal.... It seems that you or PBKs wish to be handicapped eternally, and do not ever wish to learn to walk by your own selves, for eternity.
We are handicapped and need the walking stick of Shrimat at every step. In Shrimat there is salvation. In human opinion (including our own) there is degradation. If we walk by our own selves we will meet our downfall, because our mind is degraded.

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