1st Dynasty of Lakshmi-Narayan

An open forum for all ex-BKs, BKs, PBKs, ex-PBKs, Vishnu Party and ALL other Splinter Groups to post their queries to, and debate with, any member of any group congenially.
andrey
PBK
Posts: 1288
Joined: 13 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Post by andrey » 03 Jun 2007

Body may be young, the soul is old.

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Narain Shewakram

Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Jun 2007

andrey wrote:No, no, Brother see. We are not talking about Lekhraj Kirpalani here.
It makes no difference. I think it is an entirely imaginary date, whether for Lekhraj Kirpalani, Narian Shewakram or his wife. There is no good evidence to support it.

Now, metaphorically, OK. Fine. One cant argue against that. But physically ... no grounds whatsoever and plenty of evidence to contradict it, e.g. start of satsangs in 1932, Om Mandli in full swing by 1935 with Lekhraj Kirpalani at the helm already, wrong age of Lekhraj Kirpalani etc, etc.

It appears no one PBK has even gone and done the most basic of homework and checked out Narain Shewakram's date of birth, family history etc. Who knows what gems might appear if they did! Have anyone contacted his lokik family?

BTW, when was Virendra Dev Dixit born?

surya
PBK
Posts: 132
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Location: Delhi

1876

Post by surya » 04 Jun 2007

What does 1876 stand for and where did it come for?
Dear Bro,

The only reasonable explanations I found for the year 1876 is this passage from the Murli Sakar 2004/05/08 published by BKs (you can see the whole Murli on this site also in the Murli section):

"No one knows when or how that incorporeal Supreme Father, the Supreme Soul came, and yet people celebrate His birthday. He does not enter a womb. He explains: I enter this one in his stage of retirement, in the last of his many births. When people take up renunciation, they are said to be in their stage of retirement."

So I assume from the above passage that 'this one' refers to Prajapita and so he must had being at least 60 years old in 1936 and going backwards we get to the year 1876.

How does Supreme Soul enters him? In the same Murli :

"So, I enter this one. Where do I come and sit? I sit next to where his soul is sitting, just as gurus make their disciples sit next to them on their gaddi. This one's place and My place are both in the same spot."

new world
Vishnu Party
Posts: 178
Joined: 20 May 2007
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Renunciation

Post by new world » 05 Jun 2007

Dear Suryabhai, the unlimited Father speaks only unlimited facts. Here '60th year', 'renunciation' & 'retirement' are not related to the physical body. They have unlimited meaning.

Actually the 60th year symbolises for complete experienced stage of the soul of Brahma during the passage of the shooting of 4 Yugas in the Confluence Age. And at the end of the shooting of 4 Yugas, the soul of Brahma becomes experienced of all the negative aspects of this corporeal world. And in Murlis this stage is described as 'the 60th year of Brahma'. His physical age may or may not be 60 years. At this stage, during the passage of 4 Yugas, he becomes completelyTamo-pradhan. This is described as 'retirement', which represents that he has lost his dignity, powers, at the end of shooting of Kaliyuga. And he is supposed to be renunciated. In this he becomes Chariot of the Father.

The Father comes at the end of the end. Now Sangam Yuga comes at the end of the Kalpa & at the end of the Sangam Yuga, that is, at the end of shooting of 4 Yugas, the incarnation of the Father takes place in Brahma/Bharat.

But my queries in the first article of this thread have been kept aside. Please go deeply through that article & reply to that queries about the 1st Lakshmi-Narayan.

andrey
PBK
Posts: 1288
Joined: 13 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Post by andrey » 05 Jun 2007

Dear brother ex-l,

we know from the Murlis that Brahma Baba used to hold satsangs with other gurus. He used to have 12 gurus. 32 may be an year for starting any of these satsangs with wordly gurus.

Gems of knowledge come only from the Supreme Soul. These dates, years are important when we like to have a clear idea, but still in them there is no information for the soul, the Supreme Soul, the world drama. Information regarding these matters are gems, or milk of knowledge that on churning become butter or nectar; how the soul takes 84 births, how does it come and play part through the body?

When thinking about these the soul starts feeling happy. What is there to churn about an age or year it is just a number, historical fact 36 and this is it? This information does not bring any happiness. There is difference.

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Post by fluffy bunny » 05 Jun 2007

andrey wrote:we know from the Murlis that Brahma Baba used to hold satsangs with other gurus.
Andrey, we do not 'know' anything. It is now proven that we have been told a load of lies and fairy stories.
  • No. These were not the "meeting with 12 gurus" ... fairy stories.

    These were the 'Lekhraj Kirpalani retires in 1932 aged 47 and starts to hold satsangs where he spoke' reports by Om Radhe. Read the history topic or find the original documents.
The whole BK story of Shiva's decent into Lekhraj Kirpalani is a fairy story, as even the PBKs agree. I am trying to unpick the truth.

The facts are slowly unpicking the illusions that the BKs fill peoples' minds with ... and I am surprised to discover you still doing so. You have a responsibility to discover and speak the truth. Illusions will not bring happiness.

Looking at the list of Om Mandli members, I see;
  • Jamna Shewakram Daryanani aged 60 married of Dasvani Lane. There are a number of Shewakram children.
Is this Narain's wife and are those his grandchildren or relatives? If the wife was 60 in 1938 then it is likely he was a year or two older and so therefore the 1876 date could related to him ... but why can someone just not go and find out the facts instead of depending on gossip and messages from tricky spooks?

new world
Vishnu Party
Posts: 178
Joined: 20 May 2007
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Again unconcerned reply

Post by new world » 05 Jun 2007

Dear bro Andrey & ex-l,

this thread started with the article '1st dynasty of Lakshmi-Narayan' & after so many replies the REAL subject matter has been kept aside.

Dear andrey & ex-l, please open a new thread to discuss about the year 1936. Here discuss ONLY about my queries in the first article of this thread. Andrey Bhai please try to undestand that time is precious. So while replying CONCENTRATE only on the central theme of the thread. I've observed that you have spoiled many threads by unconcerned replies. No doubt, you are very very intelligent, but you need to be matured.

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Re: Again unconcerned reply

Post by fluffy bunny » 05 Jun 2007

new_world wrote: No doubt, you are very very intelligent, but you need to be matured.
new_world, Read your own posts in this topic, you stated ...
new_world wrote:And PBKs believe that the 100 years (in the mortal world) of Brahma (Veerendra Dev Dixit) was completed in 1976. Thus this counting starts from 1876. Now was the soul of Bharat (Sevakram, the previous birth of Veerendra Dev Dixit - according to PBKs) Brahma during 1876 to 1936-37?
How can we accept and progress a subject if the premises are based on falsehoods or misunderstood facts?

Does "mature" mean "condescending" in your language? God save me from maturity if you are the perfect embodiment of it.

User avatar
bansy
Posts: 1643
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Post by bansy » 05 Jun 2007

Let me just interject for a moment.

It seems that recently the forum activity has been raised, all in good order. This always happen when someone arrives newly on the scene, but eventually this all settles down. However the enthusiasm of one should not be one to seek anything or ask of anyone or anybody their views, it is in some ways a form of "begging" to others. Though I prefer to call it "sharing". As when we share, we are giving, not taking.

This forum is one for all, others are reading and churning at their own pace. Some may wish to reply, others may wish to sit back and watch the sun setting behind the mountains.

At the same time, this forum has a lot of rich topics, and threads that are rich in nature will expand into many subtopics. Within the entire forum, the number of overlaps of associated discussions is countless, sometimes we can even forget where we posted our own threads.

Maybe we also don't understand the query. It may seem clear from one's point of view (since it is one's current churning) but it may be something not stirred up in another's intellect, or it could be something ignored way back and recalled and put back into the limelight. What may seem important to oneself may not be for another. However, for the most part, everyone makes worthwhile efforts, whether in-BKdom or out-of-BKdom.

The best way to know if one is doing alright is to read back one's own posts, and see if you would want to answer your own post as if you were someone else in the forum. No-one is wasting my time, as only you can waste your own time.

PS : This is not targeted at anyone. I am included since I am also part of this forum. Whatever you feel, I am sure others appreciate what each are sharing, whether it feels right or wrong, only you can decipher that yourself. You can also chose to ignore this post.

OK, diplomacy over ... back to discussion ...

User avatar
aimée
PBK
Posts: 190
Joined: 06 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Location: Oxford

Post by aimée » 20 Jun 2007

According to the clarification - God's words - Shiv enter the one who is in his age of retirement, the age of his body, being 60. Lekhraj Kirpalani is not 60 in 36.

When the same soul owner of that body, from Sevakram becomes Virendra Dev Dixit and reaches his 100 years, starting from 36, then Svarag starts for him. The too late board has been shown for him, he is the first. This has been said black on white in the course and clarifications. No one can deny it, otherwise the whole foundation of advance knowledge is denied.

User avatar
aimée
PBK
Posts: 190
Joined: 06 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Location: Oxford

Post by aimée » 21 Jun 2007

About Lakshmi and Narayan, the parents of Radhe and Krishna, are kalateet, beyond the 16 celestial degrees, as the generation of the ones who are the parents of the the first generation of the Golden Age. Beyond means that they are higher than the ones who have 16 celestial degrees. As the picture of Lakshmi and Narayan shows, they are bigger in size, and above (as parents) Radhe and Krishna.

suryavanshi
PBK
Posts: 121
Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Post by suryavanshi » 21 Oct 2007

New World wrote:PBKs also believe that 1st couple of (Golden Aged) Lakshmi and Narayan is 16 celestial degree complete. But they don't say anything about celestial degrees of confluence aged Lakshmi and Narayan.
The words 16 celestial degrees are said in reference to the moon. It is a simple astronomical fact that the brightness of the moon varies but the brightness of the Sun remains constant. Sun does not become full Sun or half Sun but the there is definitely half moon and full moon. In Gyan, the kalaa (or celestial degrees) refers to the power of the soul or divinity of the soul. When the soul is 8 celestial degrees, then it is half moon or 50% divine or has 50% power. And when the soul is 16 celestial degrees complete, then it is equivalent to full moon.

Since the brightness of the moon (analogous to power of soul) deceases or increases, we can measure it's brightness or we can say that today the moon is less bright or more bright i.e. the soul is less or more powerful. But since the Sun is always bright , we cannot measure the brightness of the Sun.We cannot say that today the Sun is less bright or more bright.So, we can say that brightness of the Sun is beyond measurement. In reference to kalaa of the soul, we say that it is kalaa-atit, i.e. kalaa of the soul cannot be measured like the brightness of the Sun. So, who is more powerful ? The Sun or the Moon. Definitely,Sun is more powerful.

So, the confluence aged Lakshmi-Narayan obtain direct inheritance of Heaven from the Gyan Surya Supreme Soul.They are the direct children of the Gyan Surya Baap.Since they are the direct children, their power of soul is defined as kalaa-atit, i.e. their kalaa cannot be measured since they take direct divine birth from from the Sun of Knowledge - the brightness of Sun does not change.

Whereas, the Lakshmi-Narayan of Satyug are 16 celestial degrees complete, since they do not take birth directly from the Sun of Knowledge. They are the souls who belong to the moon dynasty and therefore, their kalaa can be measured. Instead they take birth from more powerful souls, i.e. Sangamyugi Lakshmi-Narayan. Sangamyugi Lakshmi-Narayan are Kalaa-atit and satyugi Lakshmi-Narayan are 16 celestial degrees complete. So, since Sun is more powerful then moon, the Sangamyugi Lakshmi-Narayan (children of Sun dynasty who are kalaa-atit ...because brightness of Sun cannot be measured) are more powerful then Satyugi Lakshmi-Narayan (children of moon dynasty who are 16 celestial degrees complete --- since their kalaa can be measured like the moon).

Murli points:
  • 1) Lakshmi -Narayan Vishwa ke malik they, Satyug ke nahi. (Lakshmi-Narayan were the World Emperor and World Emperess, and not of Golden Age). Sakar Murli ... 19/12/1969

    2) Ooch te Ooch Baap sein ooch te ooch varsa milta hai. Wah hai hi Bhagwan.Phir second number mein hai Lakshmi- Narayan Satyug ke malik. (Highest on high Father gives the highest inheritance. He is God. Then, in the second number are Lakshmi-Narayan who are Golden Aged Emperor and Empress) ... Sakar Murli ... 8/1/1975

    3) Bhagwaan ne jaroor bhagwaan bhagwati paidaa kiye..(God surely created God and Goddesses) ... Sakar Murli ... 23/5/1976

    4) Is rajyog dwaara is purshottam Sangamyug par hi yeh Lakshmi-Narayan bantein hai. (Through this Rajyog , they become become Lakshmi-Narayan in this Purshottam Sangamyug itself) ... Sakar Murli ... 5/12/1974.
From the above points from the Murli, it is clear that Murli is talking about Two Lakshmi-Narayan and not one. One Lakshmi-Narayan (Sangamyugi - Kalaa-atit)) will become the world Emperor and Emperess and the other Lakshmi-Narayan (Satyugi - 16 clestial degrees complete) will become become Emperor and Emperess of the Golden Aged World only and not of the whole world.

When we say Kalaa-atit , then they definitely have that divinity and power like the satyugi Lakshmi-Narayan (i.e. they have the 100% power of 16 celestial degrees) but their divinity does not decrease (compared to Satyugi Lakshmi-Narayan) like the brightness of the moon but is stable like the brightness of the Sun (therefore, we say Kalaa-atit) It will only decrease when the actual Satyug starts after coronation of the Satyugi Lakshmi-Narayan.

(Reference: Satyug mein ek janma gujraa khad padi ... Sakar Murli ... 9/11/1972. (In Satyug, one birth passes and the soul falls down, i.e. the kalaa comes down). And Sangamyug hain chadti kalaa kaa yug ... (Sangamyug is the yug of increasing the power of the soul).

User avatar
john
Reforming BK
Posts: 1606
Joined: 03 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Location: UK

Post by john » 21 Oct 2007

suryavanshi wrote:Murli points:
1) Lakshmi -Narayan Vishwa ke malik they, Satyug ke nahi..(Lakshmi-Narayan were the World Emperor and World Emperess, and not of Golden Age.) Sakar Murli ... 19/12/1969
Thank you Suryavanshi. That is a very interesting quote from Murli.

Can someone else confirm the translation as accurate, with nothing added, nothing taken away, please?

User avatar
aimée
PBK
Posts: 190
Joined: 06 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Location: Oxford

Post by aimée » 21 Oct 2007

The translation looks good to me. In the dictionary [kalaa] means "small part of anything", specifically a sixteenth part: a digit of the moon.

Baba speaks about 16 celestial degrees as the full power, and then the power reduces. [kalaatit] is beyond degrees. [ati] means beyond. Beautiful explanation Suryavanshi.

new knowledge
Academic
Posts: 463
Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: questioning bk-pbk knowledge

Post by new knowledge » 21 Oct 2007

Superb reply from suryavanshi. But here I am confused. Advance knowledge believe that the Confluence Aged Narayan (soul of Ram/Prajapita as believed by PBKs) is the same soul who plays the role of Bharat. And according to PBKs, the Confluence Aged Narayan is Kalaa-atit, i.e. having unlimited celestial degrees & in Murlis it is described that Bharat becomes 16 celestial degree complete. Now if Bharat is the same soul of the Confluence Aged Narayan, then why is Bharat described as 16 celestial degree complete & why the Confluence Aged Narayan is believed to be Kalaa-atit?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests