Prejudiced PBK perspective about the Ladder picture

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Prejudiced PBK perspective about the Ladder picture

Post by new world » 21 May 2007

Here I wish to discuss with you about the prejudiced PBK perspective about the Ladder picture.

the Ladder depicts the story of downfall & upliftment of Bharat (in the Confluence Age). Here 'Bharat' means the main hero in the Confluence Aged drama. Stories of downfall & upliftment of BKs & PBKs are also covered in the Ladder picture. But the central theme of the Ladder picture is to picturise the story of Bharat (the main hero actor) & not that of BKs & PBKs (minor actors). But instead of picturising the story of downfall & upliftment of Bharat (which is the real story depicted by the Ladder), PBKs view the Ladder as the story of downfall of BKs during the shooting of descending ladder (which is not subject of that story).

We can trace very ... very few statements about downfall of PBKs in the literature of Advance Party. But their views about Ladder is to criticise BKs. the Ladder is the ideal & perfect story of downfall & upliftment of Bharat. Downfall & upliftment of BKs & PBKs during the shooting period of descending ladder, but there stories are not ideally presented by the Ladder.

Waiting for your reply.

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Ascending & descending ladder

Post by new world » 21 May 2007

PBKs talk much about Descending Ladder (utarti sidi), that is, about the shooting of 4 epoches (Yugas) from Golden Age to Iron age since 1960-61 to 2003-04. They depict the story of downfall of Brahmin community (especially of BKs) during these 44 years.

But after 2004, that is in degraded conditions, how can they play sato-pradhan role in Confluence as well as Golden Aged heaven?

Thus to play sato-pradhan role in Confluence & Golden Aged heaven, all the Brahmin community must have to go through upliftment, that is, Ascending Ladder (chadhti sidi). In other words, after 2004 (or whatever may be the year in your mind), shooting of 4 epoches (yugas) from Iron Age to Golden Age must have to take place. And then after completing this shooting of Ascending Ladder, Brahmin community will be ready & well qualified to play sato-pradhan role in Golden Age.

But this fact is totally ignored by PBKs. Can any PBK gave answers to these questions?
  • 1) After completing shooting of downfall of Brahmins untill 2004(?), how are they uplifted & trained so as to play sato-pradhan role in the Goldem age?
    2) If the shooting of 4 epoches from 1960-61 to 2003-04 takes place in the direction from Golden Age to Iron age, then after 2003-04 the shooting of that 4 epoches from Iron age to Golden Age must have to take place to be qualified to play sato-pradhan role in Golden Age of broad drama. Can you say something about time period of all 4 epoches in the Ascending Ladder which will take place after 2004?
Shooting of the Descending Ladder shooting of Ascending Ladder = complete Confluence Aged drama.

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Post by aimée » 22 May 2007

Depending what you mean by PBK literature. If we refer to what is the most important, the clarification, Baba keeps speaking about the downfall, vices of all of us. When he speak about the children leaving Baba, or opposing him, he also speaks about BK and PBK.

the Ladder might be more focussed on the path of worship, as represented in the shooting. The middle part is supposed to represent the start of the Yagya, at the beginning when there was unadulterated remembrance, to the time when Virendra Devi Dixit is represented as the beggar. He has nothing and he has been at that time rejected by the establishment of the BK. You can see them on the left. They have become important and need their "public relation" group.

Not recognizing the Father in the new Chariot is not a small thing. It does not seem a criticism for me but a representation of the evolution of the Yagya, in an objective way. If you consider that out of the BK, a group will raise, and with their purity, will be able to shift the Rudramala of the Advance Party, who are not able at the moment to purify themselves completely. For me, the Ladder represents the ones who control the others and the Yagya what it is now.

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Post by abrahma kumar » 22 May 2007

Hi, I hope you do not mind me joining in this chat. If that ladder picture is the same one we see in the BK centres I thought it depicted the Cycle as relevant to the journey and activity of us human souls through the cycle; i.e. all souls from the time they leave the Soul World to the time heaven becomes a reality on earth once again. Why, there is even a figure of a pop star on the Ladder. So, as to whether it pertains only to Bharat or only BK's or whether PBKs ought to get a vision of their own ladder and picturise that vision so that we can see how they fit in seems a moot point to anyone wishing to understand God and what He/She/It has to say to us humans insofar as uplifting our consciousness is concerned. Maybe we should all just stick to the Murli (originals please) and forget all this vision inspired stuff. By what yardstick and on whose authority are going to be able to assess whether the PBK perspective about the Ladder picture is prejudiced?

Whether Bharat is only synonymous with India is a question that we have surmised about elsewhere on the forum and perhaps you can help us new_world. In your opinion is Bharat the entire world or just India? And I do not mean to ask whether by extrapolation the 'story' of India can be taken as being of relevance to the other nations of the world when/if they catch-up with that mighty land. No, what I would like to know is whether Bharat is only India.

When i read these discussions i get the feeling of being a guest at the dinner party co-hosted by sworn enemies who are nonetheless trying to prove that had they been put in sole charge of festivities the jollification and 36 varieties of vegetarian food would have been much, much more enjoyable and easier on the palate!

Is this the situation between the BK's and the PBKs? Does God get lost while we squabble amongst ourselves over these matters? As for the other aspects being mentioned and attributed to the Ladder I have to confess that i may need to do the Advanced Course in order to fathom the depth of all that.

Om Shanti and thanks Aimee for your input.

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Post by john » 22 May 2007

abrahma Kumar wrote: By what yardstick and on whose authority are going to be able to assess whether the PBK perspective about the Ladder picture is prejudiced?
The main difference between BK explainations of Gyan and PBK explainations, is that PBKs also take the knowledge as a reference to time within the Confluence Age i.e. the Confluence Age is a microcosm and reflection of the broad 5,000 year drama.

The other diference is that say for example Bharat applies to a name of a person in the drama as well as the name for India. A lot of the discussions you will see are about who the various names belong to.

So it is thought that by proving who the names belong to, you prove who is Shiva and who is the permanent Chariot.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 22 May 2007

john wrote:So it is thought that by proving who the names belong to, you prove who is Shiva and who is the permanent Chariot.
It still makes me ill to work out how the "permanent Chariot" can be only part-time ... permanent means permanent.

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Post by john » 22 May 2007

ex-l wrote:It still makes me ill to work out how the "permanent Chariot" can be only part-time ... permanent means permanent.
Yup, does to me.

I still cannot get my head round the Chariot being 'ShivBaba', when in all the Murlis it says ShivBaba is Godfather point of light. I am yet to see a Murli quote that says ShivBaba is Shiva plus Chariot.

It does say 'as in the beginning so at the end'. So as Brahma was called Godfather, will Virendra Dev Dixit eventually be called Godfather by PBKs, I've seen a few freudian slips to that effect.

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Post by aimée » 22 May 2007

Permanent might be a wrong interpretation of the Hindi word "mukarar rath", some translate it as "appointed Chariot". But I still would go for permanent as John says. Baba (in Virendra Dev Dixit) gives the example of a school director, who has a permanent post, but if he leaves the school for a while, would appoint someone on a temporary basis. In the history of the Yagya, Sevakram left, and has come back as Virendra Dev Dixit.

The picture of the Ladder and the Tree, that present the BK have been made afterwards, and not on Baba's instructions (in Lekhraj Kirpalani), like the four original pictures were made. The new ones are adapted to the Western tastes and the basic knowledge, whereas the original pictures are full of information, in fact all their elements are meaningful. They should be in this website, somewhere, if they are not please let me know, I can put them. Abraham Kumar, if you want I can send them to you directly, or to anyone, they are really interesting to look at, and they are not presented anymore in any of the BK centers, I wonder why...

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Re: Prejudiced PBK perspective about the Ladder picture

Post by warrior » 22 May 2007

But the central theme of the Ladder picture is to picturise the story of Bharat (the main hero actor)
I think the "main hero actor" is not Brahma Baba (Lekhraj Kirpalani) because he is not 'permanent' in this world in front of our eyes.

Who is permanent is the one that will never be seeing leaving his body. He will leave his body eventually but this will not be witness by anyone. So in a way he is permanent present in front of the entire human race till the end of times.

This is what I understand from the picture of the Ladder so therefor there should be such Chariot around, somewhere.


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So how many chariots!!

Post by new world » 23 May 2007

Can anybody explain how many chariots of ShivBaba are there? And what is the real difference between;
  • 1) temporary Chariot,
    2) mukarrar charriot,
    3) permanent Chariot &
    4) bhaagyashaali Chariot?
* I request all of you to use very simple English without any complicated philosophhcal wordings. Discussion in this forum is not like a paper of English language or philosophy. Post any article in such a way that everyone can understand it easily.

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Post by aimée » 23 May 2007

In some clarifications, Baba (in Virendra Dev Dixit) says that there are four or five faces of Brahma, it seems to me that those must have been Chariot at some point because it is also said somewhere that, "the one I enter has to be called Brahma".

First, at the beginning of the Yagya, Shiv entered Geta Mata (I think), so she could report the visions of Lekhraj Kirpalani as he told her to Sevakram and immediately he entered Sevakram, who explained those visions. This Sevakram, as he is the Chariot at the beginning from 36 (around) to 42/42, and from 76, until the end as Warrior says, this is the "permanent Chariot" (mukarrar rath). He is also the fortunate Chariot, the one who is fortunate to play the role he is playing, but also because he is the one who bring the fortune to the children. That is the meaning of bhaagyashaali rath.

All the other chariots are "temporary chariots".

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Post by fluffy bunny » 23 May 2007

This might be a start of a new thread, but if one is to be pedantic about the meaning of the original posters, what is the picture of the Cycle do Truman and Stalin symbolise?

It was written that they the cats were going to fight over the butter. Now they are both dead. Do they symbolise other elements or other individuals within the BK Family and if who, why?

Thanks.

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Post by aimée » 23 May 2007

I think they represent on the Christian religion, and the other one the atheist religion. Because the outer world is a mirror of the BK world, which is itself a mirror of the PBK world, the nine main religion are represented in the family, both BK and PBK. The atheist is the 10th element. It is because they will fight against each other, not with weapons but with words (knowledge, defamation), that it will cause the destruction of the institution.

Krishna, the Sangamyugi Krishna, gets the butter; the ones who have churned the knowledge, the children who will form the first gathering of swarag, or something like that ... not 100% sure :roll:

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My query still unanswered!

Post by new world » 23 May 2007

Here I see that my queries in my first article are not sufficiently answered. Actually more than 75% of the explanation of the PBKs about Ladder picture depends on criticism of BKs ... why?

There are so many cults in our Brahmin community, like the Vishnu Party (Ahmedabad), the Inadvance party of Satish Mehta (Mumbai), Super Inadvance Party of Ramakant (Aurangabad) etc. All these groups go through ups & downs (upliftment & downfall). Then in the PBK literature, why their stories are not covered? Why to attack on only BKs?

Can any PBK give me some examples quoted in PBK literature, where the Vishnu Party of Ahmedabad & Inadvance Party of Satish Mehta have been criticised?

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Post by fluffy bunny » 23 May 2007

aimée wrote: the Sangamyugi Krishna, gets the butter; the ones who have churned the knowledge
So, "the butter" is BK Brahmins followers that have churned knowledge and not the butter of the Golden Age heaven on Earth as the BKs teach?
new_world wrote:75% of the explanation of the PBKs about Ladder picture depends on criticism of BKs ... why?
I am not a PBK but I will put one commonsense answer to you that the PBKs, out of grace or fear, will not.

From my knowledge of the circumstances, and interaction with more than one party, there appears to a considerable amount of vicious, not to say criminal, activity being thrown about by the other groups. Especially, from what I have read, on behalf of the Vishnu Party.

From the Western point of view it appears to be typically "Indian" in its nature and the BKWSU does not appear to be entirely innocent either, e.g. beatings, bribery, legal corruption. Exactly what we hear from your politicians are problems rife in a country were the lives of the poor and vulnerable are utterly valueless and the rich lord about like medieval kings.

So, if against such attacks the PBKs keep quiet about certain things, which is my experience of them, then I think it is utterly reasonable, if not even virtuous of them.

The BKWSU is the "mothership" and has set the standards for the rest of the family. Even we ex-BKWSU-ers. It is they that have "stolen the kingdom" and appointed themselves lords. It is they have have corrputed the teachings and history so as to make it difficult for the rest of us to see the truth. So it is natural that towards them most of the criticisms will be addressed.

I am interested in your mention of the Inadvance Parties. Can you please tell us more about them, the history of their founding and the core of their philosophies?

Thanks.

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