Controversy - let's live what we preach

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arjun
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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by arjun » 16 Mar 2011

anu wrote:Who and what do you mean "...would have been sufficient for us to trust you." Who are those "us" who do't trust me? And why should I want their trust. Do I trust them.
Anu,
I don't know why you are using indirect language in the first place and then raising such doubts after I respond. I do not wish to exchange views with a member, who I believe is not being truthful with me. You can have your own beliefs. Nobody is forcing you to continue as a PBK. You can question AK as much as you wish.
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by ANU » 16 Mar 2011

I have already admitted whatever I could admit (in respect of issues like Baba's sleep, his views on education, his personal work, etc.). What more do you want me to admit? It is not necessary that whatever you perceive as truth is truth for others too. You want us not to have blindfaith in Baba but you expect the same from us in respect of whatever you say. Is this justified?
Dear Arjun
We greately misunderstand each other. There is no point in our exchanging thoughts. I kindly ask you to refrain from further commenting my posts and from participating in any view exchange which I Maya have with anyone in this forum.

I do not expect anyone to believe me and do not expect anyone to believe me blindly. You have your filters of perceiving reality and things appear to you in a special light. I have my own filters, quite different from yours. Our conversation has no sense. I do not agree with your point of view that I defame Baba. Whatever I have present has been based on evidence.

Lies contained in the teaching of AIVV have been widely presented and commented; no need to go back to them. Even the kernel of the teachigs - the Trimurti has turn out to be false (see my posts reagarding Sevakram, his fatherhood to Nirmal Shanta, being a husband of Dada's sister and other events around that) - all turned out to be nothing but lies. The present life of AIVV teacher remain under a great shadow and raises many doubts - for instance his false indentity, using false documents. And a person like you, who tries to justify that AIVV teacher has right to use false ID cards, points at me accusing that I defame Baba and rely on untruth. All right, I accept your point of view on me, although I do not travel around Bharat showing people a false ID card, gathering people in front of me and spreading among them false information. I do not teach people againts evidence that Sevakram and others did something or was something that he wasn't. The same refers to many other points in AIVV teachings. And finally, I do not spread hatred between people by traveling around and blaming and ridiculing BKIVV behind their backs and then I do not hide myself before them later on like AIVV teacher does, justifying what he does by takig advantage of mythologic stories of God Ram and God Shankar as he calls them.

Whatever I published here, was first of all directed to AIVV teacher, with all my data, nationality, languange, gender and whatever you mentioned. And I do not hide from him. He and his court can easily identify who wrote these posts as they do not differ much from what they received. They also can know with whom from all over the world I have been in contact and whose information I posted here in my posts, as those people did the same what I did - they sent everything to AIVV teacher first, not once by few times.

Here in this forum I use the same rule as you. You call yourself Arjun, I call myself ANU. Any other labels have no sense. You might remain obssessed by something or someone and you tend to attributing and assigning me some personality which I am not. This leads you to creating expectations and when I gave you directly contact to me, you consider them as lies.

So, Arjun, please, kindly stay away from my posts. If you wish to check me, contact Nivi directly.

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by arjun » 16 Mar 2011

anu wrote:Whatever I published here, was first of all directed to AIVV teacher, with all my data, nationality, languange, gender and whatever you mentioned. And I do not hide from him. He and his court can easily identify who wrote these posts as they do not differ much from what they received. They also can know with whom from all over the world I have been in contact and whose information I posted here in my posts, as those people did the same what I did - they sent everything to AIVV teacher first, not once by few times.
I have sent all your queries raised on this forum to AIVV and it is they who confirmed your real identity based on the emails sent by you. But you present yourself as a person with totally different identity. It is your choice.
Here in this forum I use the same rule as you. You call yourself Arjun, I call myself ANU.
I have already said that I have not asked you to reveal your actual name or address. And I have not asked you to reveal anything which I (or many other members) haven't revealed. I have declared myself to be a male and an Indian. And expect the same (nationality and gender) from you (especially because you accuse Baba of spreading lies). But you prefer to hide the above aspects of your personality which, if revealed, will not cause any harm to you. Anyway, it is your choice.
So, Arjun, please, kindly stay away from my posts. If you wish to check me, contact Nivi directly.
I think I have the right to comment on any Member's post. And as regards contacting sister Nivi regarding your identity, there is no need for that as I have already received confirmation from Baba (AIVV) in this regard.

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by ANU » 16 Mar 2011

Once again I am asking you for not commenting anything to me. You guide yourself by your own logic, you yourself stay hidden and point at the others despite the fact they do not stay hidden.

Once again I repeat - I do not accuse Baba of lies. He said many lies in his classes and his words recorded remain evidence - there is no question of accusation, just revealing facts which you are trying to twist and hide maybe in order to save the image of AIVV against BK. He knew well and he was notified long in advance that things which he tries to deny, twist and neglect will not be kept in darkness. Simple honest words "I don't know" or "I made a mistake" would be better than all tricks and evasions that he and his direct court used to avoid certain topics and hide them from the public.

And expect the same (nationality and gender) from you (especially because you accuse Baba of spreading lies). But you prefer to hide the above aspects of your personality which, if revealed, will not cause any harm to you.
Obviously you lie by saying this, because I gave you all the details to contact me. I suggest you should first see the ID card of the person AIVV calls Virendra Dev Dixit and see what is written in that ID. He who himself uses false IDs collects data of all students and keeps them. He even sets the condition of giving by them their fingerprints stamps, while he uses illegal means to get a false ID card. Nothing strange that those who collect data of students and support practice of falsifying data use further tricks and reveal students data to other students. Great practice of AIVV, Arjun! AIVV teacher on one hand says that he quarantees confidentiality, on the other side he reveals those data to other students, on the third "hand" he accusses in classes students of not revealing their pota mails to him, because they are afrad that Baba may reveal their data to someone. Aren't they wrong? You yourself confirmed that he reveals data
...regarding your identity, there is no need for that as I have already received confirmation from Baba (AIVV) in this regard.




Lies in letters of faith preprared by AIVV and given to sign to students, lies in AIVV teachings, lies in AIVV guruji ID cards.... how many lies will we witness in the future? Mubarakho :-? Illegal placing the images of students in the classes records. Do AIVV have written permission from all those students whose images were recorded and spread in the Internet, saying that they agree to spread shots with their faces in the Internet through the site? They don't have, while they should have. Otherwise, one day AIVV may have great troubles because of that. Spreading someone's image without his permission remains illegal.

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by arjun » 16 Mar 2011

anu wrote:Obviously you lie by saying this, because I gave you all the details to contact me.
I have checked my private messages on this forum and also my email inbox. I have sent only one private message and one email to you in October, 2010 and got only one reply from your end in the form of a private message in my inbox on this forum. In that you have not given any details except for asking me to contact Baba. Since you have already revealed the contents of my private message on this forum long ago, it would be nice if you permit me to reveal the content of your message so that nobody would have any doubt in this regard.

As far as I remember you have revealed on this forum that you are an Indian male (I don't remember the name that you revealed) residing somewhere in the Middle East (Dubai, if I am not wrong) with Hindi as your mothertongue. If Sister nivi does not have any objection she can confirm on this forum (instead of giving the information to me alone through a private message as suggested by anu 'Bhai') if the above information given by anu 'Bhai' is true or not.

I don't know what other detail you have given to me to contact you.
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by arjun » 16 Mar 2011

anu wrote:I suggest you should first see the ID card of the person AIVV calls Veerendra Dev Dixit and see what is written in that ID.
I have already said that this is for AIVV to answer.
Illegal placing the images of students in the classes records. Do AIVV have written permission from all those students whose images were recorded and spread in the Internet, saying that they agree to spread shots with their faces in the Internet through the site? They don't have, while they should have. Otherwise, one day AIVV may have great troubles because of that. Spreading someone's image without his permission remains illegal.
I don't think AIVV has received any complaint in this regard so far. Well, it is upto you to lodge a complaint in this regard just to harrass someone or to instigate others to lodge a complaint. Spiritual discourses of hundreds of gurus/saints/religious leaders are telecast all over the world on TV. And most of these telecasts show the gathering invariably. I don't know how it is practically possible for any spiritual organization to obtain written permission from each and every person sitting in the gathering to allow the telecast of the recordings? This way I think every spiritual leader will be busy just obtaining signatures of his/her disciples rather than concentrate on other beneficial things.

But is it not surprising that the above words come from a person who revealed the contents of my private message on this forum without my permission!!!!

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by ANU » 16 Mar 2011

But is it not surprising that the above words come from a person who revealed the contents of my private message on this forum without my permission!!!!
Do you want to even hide this that you asked me in mail to reveal my data? Do I need your permission to say openly that Arjun asked me for this? Did you put a confindentiality clause somewhere in your letter to me? No, you did not. Does "private message" mean "secret message"? No, it doesn't. So, have courage to speak openly and do not shout please by using exlamation marks.

The entire environment spread by AIVV teachings starts to become smelly and sticky. The main reason of these multilayered lies comes from hidding facts, repeated twisting interpretation depending on which version turns to be more comfortable at the time fo need, incognito stuff and falsifications. The best way to fool and manipulate blind uneducated people is to deprive them of full information, then to twist interpretation, to hide and stay incognito. The most comfortable way to criticize someone, like AIVV teacher criticizes BK often without any proof, is to shout in recording tapes and hide himself behind walls and false IDs and not have courage to speak face to face. Then, spread rumours that BKs want to kill AIVV teacher. Osama bin Laden'ism :), meaning terror in disguise.

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by arjun » 16 Mar 2011

anu wrote:Do you want to even hide this that you asked me in mail to reveal my data? Do I need your permission to say openly that Arjun asked me for this?
I have never hidden that and I have even openly requested you on the forum that Baba has asked you to reveal your identity. I told you several times that if you have faith in me you can reveal the identity to me otherwise you can reveal your identity to Baba telling him that you are writing on the forum as 'anu'. And I wrote that private message just to convey Baba's message to you. But you breached my trust and within a few days revealed the contents of the pm on this forum. I am reproducing the pm sent to you on 27th Oct, 2010 for everyone to read for themselves:

"Sister Anu,
Om Shanti. I happened to see your list of questions on the same day when you posted them on the forum. And by chance that day I was with Baba. I took a
printout and showed the same to Baba and informed him that these questions were sent to NS. He said that he is not aware of those questions. So, in
order to confirm that you have actually submitted these questions, he wanted me to find out your name, address and when you did bhatti and when
you sent these questions to NS so that he could cross check with NS.
If you could kindly provide these details I would convey the same to Baba. I could discuss some of these questions with him and I will post my answers
based on some replies received from him. Since I could not record all the conversation, I cannot post them as official replies but as my own replies.
Later on I will get them verified from NS.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
"

Now that I have done my job, I hope you will practice what you preach by permitting me to post your reply (sent through pm) on this forum so that the controversy surrounding your offer of revelation of identity would end.
Did you put a confindentiality clause somewhere in your letter to me? No, you did not. Does "private message" mean "secret message"? No, it doesn't. So, have courage to speak openly and do not shout please by using exlamation marks.
A private message itself means that it is for private viewing and not to be shared on a public forum like this. By making public the contents of my private message without my permission you have lost my trust and probably of other members. Now I will never send any private message to you in future. I have been member of http://www.xbkchat.info and then http://www.brahmakumaris.info for many years before this forum started and whenever anyone revealed the contents of a private message on those fora, it was considered to be a breach of trust and an offence. If I am not wrong Roy Bhai has experienced the negative effect of this directly on that forum. I hope he can second me. So, you are completely wrong when you say that a private message does not mean a secret message. It indeed is.

As regards the exclamation marks, although it was intended to lay stress on the words it was never meant to show that I am shouting. Shivsena Bhai has been using these exclamatory marks since many years. You never objected to that. Sachkhand Bhai has been using red bold and large letters to express his anger towards me but you never objected to that. Your yourself use many words that show your anger or hatred for Baba, but we never objected to that. So, why do you now object to simple exclamatory marks? I don't think I have committed any crime by using an exclamatory mark. But you definitely have committed an offence by revealing the contents of my private message on this forum.

Although I have come to know of your real identity from many sources including Baba, but I did not reciprocate the mistrust by revealing your real identity or the contents of your reply even after so many months of defamation being spread by you, but you are accusing me of telling lies. Members can decide for themselves as to who is lying and who is telling the truth. Sachkhand may be expressing his anger against me, but I appreciate that at least he is truthful in his feelings. That is why I don't mind his emotional outbursts and continue to reply to the important issues raised by him. But your foundation itself is based on untruth. Your writings indicate that you are probably a non-English speaking, non-Hindi speaking, non-Indian but you continue to present yourself as a Hindi speaking Indian based in Dubai. When the foundation itself is based on untruth, how can you reach the truth?????

Now I hope you don't make an issue out of the repeated question marks above!!!! :D
The entire environment spread by AIVV teachings starts to become smelly and sticky. The main reason of these multilayered lies comes from hidding facts, repeated twisting interpretation depending on which version turns to be more comfortable at the time fo need, incognito stuff and falsifications. The best way to fool and manipulate blind uneducated people is to deprive them of full information, then to twist interpretation, to hide and stay incognito. The most comfortable way to criticize someone, like AIVV teacher criticizes BK often without any proof, is to shout in recording tapes and hide himself behind walls and false IDs and not have courage to speak face to face. Then, spread rumours that BKs want to kill AIVV teacher. Osama bin Laden'ism :), meaning terror in disguise.
I can just repeat the topic of this thread 'controversy - let's live what we preach' ;-)

If Baba Virendra Dev Dixit is guilty then most of the members of the forum on brahmakumaris.info including ex-l and the Admins who keep criticizing BKWSU with concrete proofs would also be guilty in your eyes, would they not? There have been so many heroes in world history who would change their identity to help others. All of them would also be guilty in your eyes, would they not?

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by ANU » 16 Mar 2011

Arjun Bhai

I will not continue this or any other exchange with you, as I think it goes insane. You quarrel with many people who point at AIVV lies and you repeatedly reveal signs of "identity sickness". No one apart from you does so much noise around me and my identity. Are you being obssessed? What do you want from me? You repeatedly pick on me and my identity, undermine my credibility and even go so far that you impute on me some imaginary identity suporting your view with Baba and some other vougue personalities. What do you want? Why do you impute on me some sister's personality. Are you and your guys mad? Come on, give me a breath. I don't know who you want to trace and why you jump on me, why you made so many assumptions on me. Am I bothering you? Who are you guy, that you repeatedly call me like this? You pretend to follow the code of conduct and fail to notice that you make a massacre all around you. You turn to be so emotionally touched, I wonder for what reason, that you have started to post so called by you private messages, giving another proof of being obssessed by some sister? And you are blaming me that I posted your private message, while I have only mentioned that you asked me in a pm to reveal my ID. Sober up, man! If you don't stop offending me and jumping on me with your false assumption on my identity, if you don't stop spoling my image, I will reort to administration. I do not ofend you, you repeatedly offend me, becasue you cannot stand that uncomfortable facts regarding your idol have been revealed by me.

Am I to chase all letters of Sach Khand and Shivsena like you are chasing all letters in this and other forums, to settle their accounts of exclamation marks? I don't read their posts almost at all. To those which I read, I expressed my objections if I had some.

Now, let's count the time - how much time have passed since I posted those questions which one I my friends shared with me? Many months - almost half a year. Neither my friend who prepared the list of those questions received any answer from Baba, nor did I receive any answer from him and through this forum. Some other students with whom I exchanged view and who also asked Baba for help in understanding did not receive anything. My friend has broken down seriously and is completely lost. Psychical and emotional break down followed by physical break down. And I feel now that it was the last straw that broke the camel's back.
Your writings indicate that you are probably a non-English speaking, non-Hindi speaking, non-Indian but you continue to present yourself as a Hindi speaking Indian based in Dubai. When the foundation itself is based on untruth, how can you reach the truth?????
Arjun, you are offending me. Do you know my family background? Do you know my educational background? DO you assume that all who were born in India must speak Hindi as their first language and must have both mother and Father Hindu? Are you so narrow minded? You only cause harm and damage around you by your crazy assumptions. If you keep someone in your head and expect me to play that role, I am assuring you that I will not play that one whom I am not. Leave me alone and stop offending me.

LAST THING! SOMEONE ILLEGALLY WITHOUT MY KNOWLEDGE WROTE UNDER MY NICKNAME APPEARING ON THE RIGHT SIDE "India AND MIDDLE EAST". ARJUNA - IF YOU WERE ENGAGED IN THIS YOU WOULD PROVE YOURSELF MEAN. I HAVE NOTICED YOU WANT TO LABEL THE ENTIRE WORLD AND WHEN SOMEONE DOESN'T WANT TO FIT IN YOUR FRAMES YOU ARE READY TO ... I REQUEST THE ADMINISTRATOR TO REMOVE THE LABEL PLACED UNDER MY NICKNAME. WHAT HAPPENED VIOLATES REGULATION AND I FIND ARJUN THE MAIN CAUSE OF IT. HERE I LODGE A COMPLAINT.

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by arjun » 17 Mar 2011

anu wrote:Why do you impute on me some Sister's personality. Are you and your guys mad? Come on, give me a breath. I don't know who you want to trace and why you jump on me, why you made so many assumptions on me. Am I bothering you? Who are you guy, that you repeatedly call me like this? You pretend to follow the code of conduct and fail to notice that you make a massacre all around you. You turn to be so emotionally touched, I wonder for what reason, that you have started to post so called by you private messages, giving another proof of being obssessed by some Sister?
So, when confronted with truth, you have stooped to character-assasination? Well, if that is so, I will not respond to you anymore as I cannot indulge in such tactics.
anu wrote:LAST THING! SOMEONE ILLEGALLY WITHOUT MY KNOWLEDGE WROTE UNDER MY NICKNAME APPEARING ON THE RIGHT SIDE "India AND MIDDLE EAST". ARJUNA - IF YOU WERE ENGAGED IN THIS YOU WOULD PROVE YOURSELF MEAN. I HAVE NOTICED YOU WANT TO LABEL THE ENTIRE WORLD AND WHEN SOMEONE DOESN'T WANT TO FIT IN YOUR FRAMES YOU ARE READY TO ... I REQUEST THE ADMINISTRATOR TO REMOVE THE LABEL PLACED UNDER MY NICKNAME. WHAT HAPPENED VIOLATES REGULATION AND I FIND ARJUN THE MAIN CAUSE OF IT. HERE I LODGE A COMPLAINT.
So, finally you have expressed your true emotions by using the above colour. I can only say Om Shanti. But before concluding I would like to once again clarify that I do not have any other account other than Arjun and even the password was provided by the Admin of the past forum i.e. http://www.brahmakumaris.info many years ago which I have not changed so far.

I am ready for any inquiry either by the Admin of this forum or by any other Authority to get rid of the above allegation made against me by you. But that inquiry should also cover the issue of your identity and whether you have been a member of this forum in the past with any other nickname.

I am concluding my conversation with you and hope you will not provoke me by making further comments. Om Shanti.

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by arjun » 17 Mar 2011

If I am not wrong Roy Bhai has experienced the negative effect of this directly on that forum. I hope he can second me.
Roy Bhai, I apologize for having mentioned your name in my post. It must have been a case of mistaken identity due to similar nicknames.
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by ANU » 17 Mar 2011

Arjuna

you use the same tactics against me as you use againts others with whom you quarrel. I do not want to have anything in common with you. Your assumtions about imaginary tactics, using colors by me which should express emotions, true emotions turn to be very harmful and your so-called code of conduct - a mask. You must not know what is character assassination that you used that term against me. You yourself used this technique in many of your posts to me. AIVV teacher uses this tactics a lot, too.

I refuse to discuss with you anything more, as I think you cannot discuss things. When things look different from what you want, you are ready to do go far beyond limits.
I am concluding my conversation with you and hope you will not provoke me by making further comments.
Good, I am glad. I saw the same sentence in some of your other posts in discussions with someone else (not sure whom).
Arjuna, you repeatedly jump into my posts and try to justify and twist facts. You have started offending me by accusing me that I don't write my gender, nationality, language and finally you have tried to undermine my credibility for a long time in many ways.


Going back to the topic I started about practices in AIVV:
1. Getting false ID cards remains a crime and encouraging to get a false ID also remain a crime. Both have been practived in AIVV starting from the top guru. Once someone is caught by police while doing this, he may be injailed and punished. AIVV guru uses false IDs and obviously breaks law. So, what guarantee do can he give that he did not break law in 1998 when he was put in prison? AIVV maintains that he was innocent. What guaantee can they give, if even nowdays they break law?
2. Unequality of sexes and sex prejudice has been taught in many classes of AIVV.
3. Discouraging from gaining education, using brains, camparing facts and favouring opposite (uneducation, blind faith, complete agreement to everything the guru says) under nice covers.
4. Providing information about people, nationalities, cultures, movements in the world without evidence, based on imagination, which remain contrary with facts available in contemporary sources.
5. Providing false information about the Yagya which show certain personalities in the Yagya in circumstances comfortable for AIVV, but completely contrary to how they were presented in available sources and to what they write about themselves.
6. Hiding information or twisting facts which remain uncomfortable for AIVV image.
7. Nationalistic and fascist elements in the doctrine.
8. Arising hatred among members of the Yagya, by spreading negative information about certain members/groups no directly to them (in face to face meetings), but among other members (like in the case of BKWSU and AIVV) and accusing the members of one group in front of the members of the other group; then hiding and working incognito to spread the records in the entire world.
9. Refusing clear and honest explanation of controversies, contradictions, ambuguities and false information which already numerous keep incrasing (like it was in the case of the list of issues placed by me in the forum). Refusing to explain why AIVV teacher teaches things contradictory to facts (Sevakram, Dada's sister, Nirmalshanta and other)
10. Announcing that guru ji never says that he is ShivBaba while in many ways he does so.
11. No following by the guruji the points which he requires his followers to follow (sleeping hours, eating garlic, waking up, speaking truth, noyt violating social laws)
12. Using manipulative practices of cult group (both in AIVV and BKWSU) bringing some students on the verge of break down.

Please feel free and add to the list (except of Arjuna who concluded).

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by arjun » 17 Mar 2011

anu wrote:you use the same tactics against me as you use againts others with whom you quarrel. I do not want to have anything in common with you. Your assumtions about imaginary tactics, using colors by me which should express emotions, true emotions turn to be very harmful and your so-called code of conduct - a mask. You must not know what is character assassination that you used that term against me. You yourself used this technique in many of your posts to me. AIVV teacher uses this tactics a lot, too.
Thanks for your views about me. I wish you all the best.
Please feel free and add to the list (except of Arjuna who concluded).
Until the Admin. advises me against posting on the forum, I think I do have the right to express my opinion on any of the posts made by you regarding Baba Virendra Dev Dixit, AK, AIVV or PBKs. It is upto you to respond or not.
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by Roy » 17 Mar 2011

arjun wrote:Roy Bhai, I apologize for having mentioned your name in my post. It must have been a case of mistaken identity due to similar nicknames.
No problem Bhai!

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nivi
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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by nivi » 17 Mar 2011

Dear All brothers,

Lately we have been seeing a lot of drama on the forum and it really goes to show how much we are further dividing ourselves and humanity..All this fighting, disagreements and arguments are caused by our own thoughts and solves nothing. God comes to earth to unite humanity and establishing one family(Vasudah Kutmbh) by teaching us soul consciousness, and how at the end of the day we are all simply souls, children of the same ONE Father. But we have been doing the opposite; and our own thoughts is dividing humanity into so many pieces. Let's leave all our differences aside and focus on what is really important to us and what unties us as humans. When I look at the earthquake, tusanami and other natural disasters worldwide I cannot help but think how fragile life is and in just minutes we can loose everything. Did those people get any warning sign from mother nature? Within mintues thousands of people lost their homes, belonging, loved ones and and everything they had build up to that time..What is left after all that is gone? It's high time we step up and realize what is really important to us.

Nivi

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