Confusing Answers from AIVV.

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arjun
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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by arjun » 26 May 2009

shivsena wrote:Yes---anyone who calls another Brother a dog, does not deserve to be on any forum.I thought he would come back with some repentance and mend his ways, but i see that he has no regrets of what has happened in past and has shown no intention to improve in future; so i think that this forum will be a better and healthy place without andrey.
I expected this action from you, but now that everyone knows that you are the Admin. of this forum, I expect that you will apply the same standard of morality to yourself and other members that you expected from Andrey Bhai.

As far as I remember, it is true that he used to post lengthy replies to the posts of other members which was found to be irrelevant by many, but for a long time Andrey Bhai avoided making any personal comments against any member. He used to write only about the PBK point of view. It is only when members like you, ex-l and john started making personal comments (just like the 'dog' one for which he has been banned now) against him constantly that he lost his temper and started paying back in the same coin.

You and other members could have chosen the path of ignoring him or deleting the objectionable portions of his writings. But you chose the path of making personal comments against him and banning him. I definitely don't approve of Andrey Bhai's comments, but those who banned him or forced his suspension should sincerely think whether they have followed the same moral standards while commenting on Andrey Bhai's comments. I don't have time, otherwise I would have produced the unhealthy comments made by ex-l, shivsena and john against Andrey Bhai much before Andrey started making personal comments.

Anyway, you are the owner of this forum and you have the prerogative to ban anyone. I can only hope that one day his ban would be revoked and nobody will be banned on this forum.

Regards,
On Godly Service,
Arjun

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by shivsena » 26 May 2009

Dear arjun Bhai.

All said and done, andrey episode could not have been past tense(as you also suggested) unless he was banned. If he was allowed to continue then things would have been the same or worse, as he showed no signs of any improvement. Anyway i have taken that painful decision after much thinking and i feel that the forum has gained and not lost anything by loosing andrey.

shivsena.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by pbkindiana » 27 May 2009

shivsena wrote:

Anyway i have taken that painful decision after much thinking
is it a painful decision or sheer delight in banning someone for a small mistake or is it to impress the members of this forum "who's the boss."

Om Shanti -- indie.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by pbkindiana » 27 May 2009

andrey wrote:
Dear John Bhai,
Please, look at your behavior. You are the one to jump like a dog and bark and put oil in the fire when I am in weak position.
I feel that andrey Bhai is just quoting a simile regarding john's views and that andrey is not saying bluntly to john that 'he is a dog.' It is common to hear people saying the phrase of "why are they barking like dogs" but it is not meant to say directly that someone is a dog.

Om Shanti -- indie

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by john » 27 May 2009

pbkindiana wrote: is it a painful decision or sheer delight in banning someone for a small mistake or is it to impress the members of this forum "who's the boss."

Om Shanti -- indie.
pbkindiana.
Have you heard the expression 'The straw that broke the camels back'?
I think that is more appropriate than saying just one small mistake.
Andrey has been behaving like a child and as any parent knows, if you let a child keep getting away with things they always will.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by pbkindiana » 28 May 2009

john wote:
Have you heard the expression 'The straw that broke the camels back'?
Yes, i am aware of this phrase. John, is it asking alot to give andrey another chance. I feel that his only mistake is to post views that are out of topic, and also he doesn't denigrate or belittle the others' postings. He is enthusiastic in participating in this forum, then why deny him. Most probably now, andrey is aware that he should write with constraint, so there is no harm in giving him another chance.
Andrey has been behaving like a child and as any parent knows, if you let a child keep getting away with things they always will.
But not to the extent of banning him. Maybe he can be suspended to make him aware of his mistakes.

Om Shanti -- indie.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by bansy » 28 May 2009

I'd wanted to keep away from this thread but I have interacted with Andrey much on this forum.
pbkindiana wrote:is it a painful decision or sheer delight in banning someone for a small mistake or is it to impress the members of this forum "who's the boss."

First this quote has not helped as it rather disrespects "the boss", there is no need to spell it out, as I can imagine shivsenabhai took much time and consideration for the decision made. I don't think there is any delight or impression made in such a decision.
pbkindiana wrote:Maybe he can be suspended to make him aware of his mistakes.
Andrey has been suspended many times so he is aware.
john wrote:When someone wont listen to reason, as in your case, what options are left?
Consider more options.
andrey wrote:The admin should be more tolerant to other views. Was it not you that said just recently that everyone is free to express his views. Why don't you say this again. If i had to respect the feelings of shivsena i would have to stop posting.
Yes, stop posting in the thread and move to another. Let go.
arjun wrote:I agree that nobody should be restricted to quote from the VCD*. And Shivsena Bhai has himself quoted extensively from VCD* and Disc.CDs whenever he found them helpful to prove his point. So, he has no moral ground to ask other members to desist from quoting VCD*/Disc.CDs.
Not everyone has the notes to VCDs CDS, Murlis, AMs, SMs etc. (OK, there may be a depositary of the somewhere else website but members should then make an effort to put that material fully on this website so that all can see it). This means not all discussions will be balanced for if someone quotes a Murli point then the other person HAS to take your word for it. (My toilet is made of 100% gold and studded with diamonds and rubies and emeralds... well you'll have to take my word for it. If you say untowards, then you will be calling me a liar. Get the point ? you'll want me to show you a photo ). I used to post more Murli points but I have usually left it to more recent Murlis (which are edited BK ones unfortunately) which are more commonly available to all. Unless everyone has equal access to the Murlis and all materials, there is actually no valid or balanced discussion is there ?

Back to...

And I am not surprised Andrey is banned. I have often asked him on many occasions to cool down, more so in the bkinfo forum; I've had to persuade bkinfo admin many times to keep him. Saying that, I don't think anyone should ever be banned PERMANENTLY. A first ban can be a month. Then the next double to 2 months. Then the next double to 4 months and double next and so on. (i.e these are like suspensions). Admin can ban anyone, anytime, any reasons whatsoever as any reasonable member knows who is boss, and this is why you are able to use the forum. Unfortunately, this is the way it is, there is no ideal forum and admin is also another human being.... no one here is quite a diety yet. So banning will always be under the discretion of admin, a bit like the referee in a soccer match who tries but cannot always get it right. So even after one red card, the player can play a game after a short time, and after several red cards, the player will miss a season and after lots of red cards, too many seasons will be missed. If a child misbehaves, he cannot play with his friends for a day. If he misbehaves, then for a week. Then for a month.
So after a few forum bans, any member here would probably be out of the forum for several months, maybe even up to a year; if the member has 6-7 bans, he or she could be banned accumulatively for over 2 years or more ! This is a proposal I suggest for admin to consider bans with increasing term per ban.

So it is up to the banned person in this case to align to admin. It is HIS forum. ( HIS .. I have no shame about being a bit body conscious here, for if you are too soul conscious for me, then very well). I have always respected the role of admin and the invitation for being here to share amongst a fellowship of Yoga students. Admin may change in their ways too, and so do members. There is such a word called "transformation" we all know too well which applies to all.

But let me repeat, no member should be banned PERMANENTLY. Banning temporarily but with each ban a longer term will give that member time to adjust and aware. The member does not even need to ask for a reason but need to consider why he or she is banned, and admin does not even need to give a reason for the ban; for human judgements will never be precise and correct. After many bans, it may seem like permanent, but this forum is no Guantanamo nor North Korea.


Aside 1 : The only time I think a ban can be permanent is (other than swearing or illicit material) when the member makes discussions unrelated to BK or PBK life, such as introducing a new Yoga with a new guru or god, or giving sermons on other religions, unless there is a link to BK-PBK which would be considered as a splinter group.

Aside 2: "banning" - I know PBKs have been permanently banned from BK centres. Have anyone ever been banned from visiting PBK centres ?

Aside 3: After all this, maybe I should have kept away fromthis thread :D

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arjun
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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by arjun » 28 May 2009

sister bansy wrote:Aside 2: "banning" - I know PBKs have been permanently banned from BK centres. Have anyone ever been banned from visiting PBK centres ?
Nobody is banned from visiting PBK centers, but only those who have faith in ShivBaba's practical part are allowed to attend the daily Murli classes. And only those who have undergone bhatti are allowed to sit in the class when ShivBaba is practically present.

But yes, some PBKs, who do not follow Shrimat or have lost faith in ShivBaba's practical part are not allowed to sit in the daily classes (at mini-Madhubans) or when ShivBaba is practically narrating Murlis. Such souls have to undergo the bhatti once again to be able to attend Murli classes (at mini-Madhubans). But they can attend classes at the gitapathshalas. But there are very few souls who are not/have not been permitted to undergo bhatti once again owing to some shortcoming or the other. ShivBaba's decision in this regard is final.

There are some PBKs, who were disallowed to attend Murli classes (at mini-Madhubans)and also disallowed to undergo bhatti once again, but they continue to have faith in ShivBaba's practical part. They either attend the classes at gitapathshalas or watch Murlis by playing VCDs/Disc.CDs at their homes. Those who are banned for a longer period are generally those who were temporarily banned on previous occasions but did not mend their ways.

Even if PBKs are disallowed to attend Murli classes at mini-Madhubans, the ban is generally temporary and not permanent. And they are also allowed to send emails/letters to Baba for which they generally receive replies.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by sachkhand » 28 May 2009

AUM Shanti.
Dear members,
I think the importance of this thread is lost. :sad:
I had started this thread to discuss the confusing answers ( in my opinion as I found them to be) given in the explanations by Virendra Dev Dixit to the questions asked to him.
But this thread has totally shifted it's attention.
Arjun will agree with me that if such a thing also happens in the particular threads he has posted like Q and A with Baba or other such threads, he would have not liked such petty discussions in that thread. I too have taken part in this petty discussion. I too have made mistake.
I request the admin to delete all those reply in this post, or make another thread taking all the replies regarding Andrey.
All will agree with me that due to such change of track dilutes the importance of that thread.
And I request all members to post or raise questions which they feel as confusing answers given by Virendra Dev Dixit to the questions asked to him referring to the CD or VCD in which or Q. No. to which you feel the answer is confusing.
This will help us to understand the explanations correctly or we can ask futher clarifications needed for understanding them. :neutral:
Thanks.
Sanjeev.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by sachkhand » 28 May 2009

AUM Shanti.
Dear Members,
I have thought of starting a thread ( in commonroom or, if allowed, in PBK group) to complain or venting our emotions. "Vent out here" or "Complain here".
What do you think?
Will this help in keeping the threads clean (if not totally, but to large extent.)
In that thread we can have our complains regarding the behaviour or the irrelevant answers of anyone. We can write the name of that thread as the subject of our reply and qupte anyone about which we want to complain.
I hope Admin will answer to my suggestion.
According to me, this will help us a lot in keeping the threads clean and keep them in their right tracks. :neutral:
Thanks.
Sanjeev.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by bansy » 28 May 2009

I think the importance of this thread is lost. :sad:
I had started this thread to discuss the confusing answers ( in my opinion as I found them to be) given in the explanations by Veerendra Dev Dixit to the questions asked to him.
But this thread has totally shifted it's attention.
My apologies for this.
I have thought of starting a thread ( in commonroom or, if allowed, in PBK group) to complain or venting our emotions. "Vent out here" or "Complain here".
What do you think?
One of the roles of admin is to shift posts around and "make threads" from these posts giving it a more topical subject line. This is necessary as not all threads are always 100% to the topic, sometimes it is narrow sometimes it is broad. Thus sometimes folks do not realise how much work admin needs to do to keep the forum in place. One expects admin to read every post in every thread... can anyone have all the time to do all that ? So this suggestion would help admin in the cleaning up tasks.

At the same time, try to make the subject title more specific. "Confusing answers" is not very specific for example. However "Confusing Answers from AIVV" or "Confusing Answers from Virendra Dev Dixit" would be better. Or breakdown one post into several threads instead of putting htem into one post. There have been times when I made a thread myself and had to reedit the title more specific.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by arjun » 28 May 2009

sachkhand wrote:Arjun will agree with me that if such a thing also happens in the particular threads he has posted like Q and A with Baba or other such threads, he would have not liked such petty discussions in that thread. I too have taken part in this petty discussion. I too have made mistake.
I agree and this thought of separating the discussion on Andrey Bhai from this topic came to my mind much before you, but I don't know why I don't find any such tool as a moderator. So, if the Admin can do that it would be nice.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by shivsena » 05 Jun 2009

arjun wrote: Murli point: "Delhi ka gherao karo")..........;
Let us wait and watch :neutral:
Dear arjun Bhai.

Do you agree that there is a point in Murlis and Vanis which says that "Delhi ko gherao karo".
If you do, then please express your views about who is this chaitanya Delhi and when He will be gheraoed??

shivsena.

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Re: Confusing Answers from AIVV.

Post by shivsena » 15 Jun 2009

Dear indiana and pbk brothers.

Murli 30-11-2000 says, "Delhi mein gherao daalo. Sirf ek ko thode hi karna hai. Aapas mein milkar rai karni hai. sab ek mat hone chahiye." [meaning: "Delhi should be gheraoed. Only one will not do so; gather together to form an opinion; everyone should have one opinion."]

In the above point Shiva is clearly emerging the future behad ka drama and speaking to 108 rudrabeads, who will be nimit in gheraoing Delhi(chaitanya Bharat), once they(108) become ek mat and are united in one brotherhood.

shivsena.

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Re: Confusing Answers from AIVV.

Post by arjun » 15 Jun 2009

shivsena wrote:Do you agree that there is a point in Murlis and Vanis which says that "Delhi ko gherao karo".
If you do, then please express your views about who is this chaitanya Delhi and when He will be gheraoed??
As per the advance knowledge, the living (chaitanya) Delhi is Jagdamba (World Mother). Surrounding (gheraoing) her means giving her the yogdaan/sakaash from everywhere. This does not mean remembering her. If we remember of give the water of love to the seed of the human tree, then it will automatically reach the soul playing the part of living Delhi.

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