Confusing Answers from AIVV.

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Confusing Answers from AIVV.

Post by sachkhand » 28 Apr 2009

In PBK group, Thread: Q and A with Baba, Page 2.
by arjun on date: 16 Aug 2006
arjun wrote:Brother, I have received the Murli points from nimit Sisters vide email no. 7037/06, which prove that ShivBaba and Shiv are different and that the name Shivabab is based on a body, while the name Shiv is only for the incorporeal point of light.
1. "ShivBaba naam shareer par padtaa hai. Parantu Parmaatma ka Shiv hee naam hai."
"ShivBaba name is based on the body. But the name of Supreme Soul is Shiv only."Sakar Murli dated 15.3.96
2. "Is srishti par koi bhi cheez sadaa kaayam hai nahee. Sadaa kaayam ek ShivBaba hee hai. Baaki toh sab ko neechey hee aana hai."
"Nothing is permanent in this world. It is ShivBaba alone who is permanent. All the remaining souls have to experience downfall." Sakar Murli dated 11.1.95
3. "Shiv arthaat bindi."
"Shiv means point." Sakar Murli dated 21.2.93
AUM Shanti.
In the above quote, please read the Murli point 2. In that it is clearly indicated that ShivBaba alone is permanent in this world and also ShivBaba never experience downfall. ShivBaba never experience downfall is clearly indicated because it is said that except ShivBaba (Who is the only permanent soul in this world) all the remaining souls of this world experience downfall.
Note: The above Murli point is provided by a responsible PBK who is in close contact with AIVV sisters and also Virendra Dev Dixit and so I think there needs to be no doubt about the Murli point and it’s truthfulness.

The question that arises now is, does ShivBaba mentioned here not the same as Supreme Soul Shiv i.e., Shiv Bap?
I think, no. Because, although Shiv Bap never experience downfall, still He is not permanent in this world i.e., He is a Special Guest of this world in The Confluence Age only. And then returns back to Paramdham. And amongst the souls of this world who take corporeal form, except ShivBaba all the remaining souls of this world experience downfall i.e., in a way get perished in body consciousness.

I think my views are correct. What do you think?

Now read the answer given to question No. 26 in the following quote: (It is to be noted that the answers are given directly by Virendra Dev Dixit)

In PBK group, Thread: Q and A with Baba, Page 2.
arjun wrote:Om Shanti. Surya Bhai had asked some questions on 26th June, 2006 for which I have received replies from Baba vide email no.6075/06. The same are produced below for the kind information of members.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prashna No.25: Kya chakra may Shiv aur Ram kabhi alag hotey hain? Arthaat kya Ram kabhi ham jaisey saadharan vyakti banta hai, apni aatma ke saath akela?
Uttar: ShivBap & ShivBaba 5000 varsh kay liye alag ho jaatey hain.
Prashna No.26: Tretayug ke pashchaat, kya Ram kabhi vikaari banta hai? Ya kya vah sampoorna drama may ever-pure hai?
Uttar: Haanji , girta hai , lekin vikaar alag baat, vyabhichari alag baat.
Question No.25: Do Shiv and Ram ever get separate during The Cycle? Meaning does Ram ever becomes a simple person like us, alone with his own soul?
Ans: Father Shiv and ShivBaba get separated for 5000 years.
Qustion No.26: After Silver Age, does Ram ever fall into lust? Or is he ever pure in the entire drama?
Ans: yes, he does experience downfall, but sex-lust is a different matter and becoming adulterous is a different matter.
Virendra Dev Dixit has stated that ShivBaba does experience downfall (although not by being adulterous i.e., vyabhichari but due to sex-lust). Someone might say that in the above question it is asked about Ram and not about ShivBaba. True. But even in question No:25 the question is asked about Ram, but the answer given by Virendra Dev Dixit considers Ram as ShivBaba and answers accordingly.

Now the important question that arises is,

Does ShivBaba experience downfall? and
Regarding such an important point of knowledge whether Murli is correct or the explanation given by Virendra Dev Dixit is correct?
Everyone has to decide themselves.

And a very surprising and funny thing about this issue is that although this point was discussed in August 2006, no one noticed such a grave mistake. Although not everyone read all the posts, atleast the person who has posted both these replies and those who have participated in the thread should have noticed this. I was reading this thread (Q and A with Baba), and I found this confusing, and so have started this new thread.

And also another important question arising from the answers given by Virendra Dev Dixit to question No:25 is that Virendra Dev Dixit says that ShivBaba (i.e., Ram according to him) and Father Shiv get separated for 5000 years. But according to Murlis the whole cycle is of 5000 years of which Confluence Age is the last age which is atleast not less than 10 years. So according to Virendra Dev Dixit's answer does Father Shiv just comes for a second and goes back to Paramdham after meeting ShivBaba? Has Father Shiv (ShivBap) not yet come to this world? If so, then who is taking care of this Gyaan Yagnya in this Confluence Age since it's beginning, is it ShivBaba ( i.e., Ram according to Virendra Dev Dixit)?
I think the above issue is also confusing and need further clarifications.
Thanks.
Sanjeev.

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Another confusing answer continued for long.

Post by sachkhand » 28 Apr 2009

In PBK group, Thread: Q and A with Baba, Page 2.
by arjun 16 Aug 2006
arjun wrote:The soul which plays the role of Prajapita or ShivBaba also becomes Prajapita or ShivBaba only when the incorporeal Shiv enters into him. So incorporeal Shiv is more important than Prajapita or ShivBaba. But we children must remember that incorporeal Shiv through the corporeal body of Prajapita only.
AUM Shanti.
I have read Murli point which says that ShivBaba cannot be called as Prajapita. But this PBK is writing Prajapita or ShivBaba so many times. Is Murli point wrong?
Does Advance knowledge i.e., Virendra Dev Dixit really say that ShivBaba, Who never experience downfall, is Prajapita?
Confusing, is it not?
This really needs clarification.
Thanks.
Sanjeev.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by arjun » 01 May 2009

sachkhand wrote:The question that arises now is, does ShivBaba mentioned here not the same as Supreme Soul Shiv i.e., Shiv Bap?
No. ShivBaba here refers to the soul of Ram, who becomes equal to Shiv during the Confluence Age and acts as ShivBaba.

One thing to be noted here is that although the soul of Ram gets the title of ShivBaba during rest of the Kalpa, yet he is not known by that name to the human souls in the 83 births. Depending upon the body, place and religion, he gets different names.
Does ShivBaba experience downfall? and
Regarding such an important point of knowledge whether Murli is correct or the explanation given by Veerendra Dev Dixit is correct?
Here, ShivBaba refers to the soul of Ram and he definitely experiences downfall during the rest of the Kalpa.
And also another important question arising from the answers given by Veerendra Dev Dixit to question No:25 is that Veerendra Dev Dixit says that ShivBaba (i.e., Ram according to him) and Father Shiv get separated for 5000 years. But according to Murlis the whole cycle is of 5000 years of which Confluence Age is the last age which is atleast not less than 10 years. So according to Veerendra Dev Dixit's answer does Father Shiv just comes for a second and goes back to Paramdham after meeting ShivBaba? Has Father Shiv (ShivBap) not yet come to this world? If so, then who is taking care of this Gyaan Yagnya in this Confluence Age since it's beginning, is it ShivBaba ( i.e., Ram according to Veerendra Dev Dixit)?
You are reading it in a literal sense. Actually, it does not mean that Father Shiv and the soul of Ram get separated for 5000 years in a literal sense. It refers to the period of Kalpa except the Confluence Age, i.e. 4900 years. You may try to argue as a scientist or a lawyer, but ShivBaba is not teaching knowledge to advocates or scientists but to his children, who are from different backgrounds and mostly less-educated.

There is no confusion or contradiction in the answers given by ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) quoted by you.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by sachkhand » 02 May 2009

arjun wrote:You are reading it in a literal sense. Actually, it does not mean that Father Shiv and the soul of Ram get separated for 5000 years in a literal sense. It refers to the period of Kalpa except the Confluence Age, i.e. 4900 years. You may try to argue as a scientist or a lawyer, but ShivBaba is not teaching knowledge to advocates or scientists but to his children, who are from different backgrounds and mostly less-educated.
AUM Shanti.
Well, I can be named as scientist or lawyer, I do not mind.
But will Arjun please tell me, what would Virendra Dev Dixit be called then in and around 1973-4, when he went to B.K. centre in Ahmedabad and argued a lot. Since then he has been arguing not just with Murli points but also with grammar in Murlis. For example, wah, yah, isme, inme, Tum, etc, etc.,
If someone asks questions you should answer if you know the answer or just say that you do not know.
And your assumptions that ShivBaba teaches knowledge mostly to less educated, for this I have to say that I am really not even a graduate. But I think Virendra Dev Dixit cannot become a student of ShivBaba according to you because he was Post Graduate and a research scholar doing his Phd. :confused: ;-)
The question I have raised is important because there is a Murli point which says Mukti and Jeevan Mukti in a second and it is also said that Brahma to Vishnu in a second.
We should be open to all possible answers, because I think untill now there is still no accurate interpretations of Murli or True Gita Knowledge has not yet emerged.
I think a PBK like you, who is well known in this forum for his good behaviour, should not dare to decide whether anyone is a child of Supreme Soul Shiv or not or whether someone is eligible to be student of ShivBaba or not. Being a child of Supreme Soul Shiv and also being His student is everyone's personal one to one relation. And I hope you not dare to come between Us.
Thanks.
Sanjeev.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by sachkhand » 02 May 2009

arjun wrote:Here, ShivBaba refers to the soul of Ram and he definitely experiences downfall during the rest of the Kalpa.
... There is no confusion or contradiction in the answers given by ShivBaba (through Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit) quoted by you.
AUM Shanti.
Der Arjun,
"Nothing is permanent in this world. It is ShivBaba alone who is permanent. All the remaining souls have to experience downfall." – Sakar Murli dated 11.1.95
Qustion No.26: After Silver Age, does Ram ever fall into lust? Or is he ever pure in the entire drama?
Ans: yes, he does experience downfall, but sex-lust is a different matter and becoming adulterous is a different matter.
Above I have given the Murli point which you have referred for answering someone in another thread.
And I have also given a question and the answer to it given by Virendra Dev Dixit.
Will you please tell me how the Murli point and answer by Virendra Dev Dixit to the question are same and why are they not contradictory or not confusing.
Thanks.
Sanjeev.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by john » 02 May 2009

sachkhand wrote: "Nothing is permanent in this world. It is ShivBaba alone who is permanent. All the remaining souls have to experience downfall." – Sakar Murli dated 11.1.95
All this means is ShivBaba is in a permanent state of soul consciousness, it DOES NOT say he is permanent in this world, why are people reading so much into it? It is a mistake by Virendra Dev Dixit and/or PBKs to imply otherwise.
If there are other Murli points to back it up, let us see them.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by arjun » 02 May 2009

sachkhand wrote:I think a PBK like you, who is well known in this forum for his good behaviour, should not dare to decide whether anyone is a child of Supreme Soul Shiv or not or whether someone is eligible to be student of ShivBaba or not. Being a child of Supreme Soul Shiv and also being His student is everyone's personal one to one relation. And I hope you not dare to come between Us.
How can I come between you and God. That is your personal matter, but you cannot realize or recognize God just on the basis of arguements. This is what I wanted to say.

Most of the discussions on this forum and in the PBK section in particular are more of the nature of arguements put forward by lawyers and scientists. And to be true many many months ago I have lost interest in participating in the discussions on this forum because the discussions are very dry without any human touch. That is why I have mostly restricted myself to making a post each in the Commonroom, BK and PBK Section. If you wish to argue, you can argue with other members. I neither have any interest nor time to argue with anyone.
Will you please tell me how the Murli point and answer by Veerendra Dev Dixit to the question are same and why are they not contradictory or not confusing.
I have already explained the reason. To add to it I would like to tell that today morning I was listening to VCD no.1037 dated 3.12.08 recorded at Pune in which it was clarified that ShivBaba being permanent means that he (i.e. the soul of Ram) does not lose the stage of soul consciousness completely even in the last birth. He remains soul conscious to some extent or the other when compared to others who become completely body conscious.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by sachkhand » 03 May 2009

arjun wrote:How can I come between you and God. That is your personal matter, but you cannot realize or recognize God just on the basis of arguements. This is what I wanted to say.
AUM Shanti.
Dear Arjun,
Thank you. I am happy that a PBK is saying that we cannot realize or recognize God just on the basis or arguments.
How nice it would have been if Virendra Dev Dixit had understood this in 1970's. If ShivBaba really wanted to serve His children through Virendra Dev Dixit as ShivBaba then He would have introduced Himself through Virendra Dev Dixit directly. ShivBaba will not argue for decades just to prove Himself. In Murlis (and in Av. Vanis) you can see that the stress is on transforming children and not on proving Himself as ShivBaba.
I know and understand how you must be feeling when someone argues to prove his point and to disapprove you. I have felt it when I tried to give Virendra Dev Dixit' knowledge to BK's (when I considered myself a student of Virendra Dev Dixit as ShivBaba). I could feel their heart breaking. And so I could not continue to give them knowledge of Virendra Dev Dixit. I could experience their feelings that were as if they are being robbed. And so I stopped giving them knowledge given by Virendra Dev Dixit
arjun wrote:Most of the discussions on this forum and in the PBK section in particular are more of the nature of arguements put forward by lawyers and scientists. And to be true many many months ago I have lost interest in participating in the discussions on this forum because the discussions are very dry without any human touch.
Even I have lost interest in debating in this forum. I just post to put my views. If anyone thinks they are worth to understand they can question or suggest what is correct in their opinion.
arjun wrote:I have already explained the reason. To add to it I would like to tell that today morning I was listening to VCD* no.1037 dated 3.12.08 recorded at Pune in which it was clarified that ShivBaba being permanent means that he (i.e. the soul of Ram) does not lose the stage of soul consciousness completely even in the last birth. He remains soul conscious to some extent or the other when compared to others who become completely body conscious.
This is just ridiculous.
Downfall is a downfall. Whether you step down one step or to the last step. If not then everyone can be said to be soul conscious in their own respective percentages, like 0.00...1.
This has no meaning. Anyway, it is up to you whether to accept Murli point or Virendra Dev Dixit's explanation.
Thanks.
Sanjeev.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by arjun » 03 May 2009

sachkhand wrote:I am happy that a PBK is saying that we cannot realize or recognize God just on the basis or arguments.
ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) never asked any PBK to force the advanced knowledge upon anyone. He has said on many occasions that at the most a PBK should try to give the message of advanced knowledge three times. If someone is not interested, he/she should be left free to choose his/her own path. And this is true for the BKs as well. They are also told by ShivBaba in the Murlis to feel the pulse of a seeker (non-BK) and then give knowledge.
ShivBaba will not argue for decades just to prove Himself.
He is not arguing with anyone. He is just giving knowledge to His children which is also being made available free of cost to the rest of the world through the website of AIVV. It is up to each soul to decide whether it is useful for it or not.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by sachkhand » 04 May 2009

arjun wrote:He is not arguing with anyone. He is just giving knowledge to His children which is also being made available free of cost to the rest of the world through the website of AIVV. It is up to each soul to decide whether it is useful for it or not.
AUM Shanti.
It is good that Virendra Dev Dixit is not arguing even with his high pitch in the audio cassettes and his maligning of Dadi Prakashmani and even Brahma Baba. But why are PBKs not able to bear with someone who asks questions regarding the explanations given by Virendra Dev Dixit to the Murlis. Why was I (and others like me) called as scientists and lawyers? You even went to the extent that I and others like me are not children of Supreme Soul and Advocates and scientists of this world cannot be students of Him.
And why do you want to show that you are fed up with me or people like me? Why our asking logical questions termed as arguements. I am not forcing you or Virendra Dev Dixit to answer, even if you do not know them at present. But you can accept that you really do not know about it now or that ShivBaba (according to you) has still not clarified that point through Virendra Dev Dixit.
I hope we will return to my basic question regarding confusing answers. Hope you will give explanation to the contradiction between the Murli point and the explantion given by Virendra Dev Dixit.
Thanks.
Sanjeev.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by arjun » 05 May 2009

Why was I (and others like me) called as scientists and lawyers? You even went to the extent that I and others like me are not children of Supreme Soul and Advocates and scientists of this world cannot be students of Him.
And why do you want to show that you are fed up with me or people like me? Why our asking logical questions termed as arguements. I am not forcing you or Veerendra Dev Dixit to answer, even if you do not know them at present.
I called you a lawyer because you know very well that this Confluence Age is for 100 years as per Murlis and ShivBaba remains with His children for most part of it. Despite that you were trying to pass comments to belittle the PBKs by asking whether ShivBaba comes for a second.
I never said that you are not the child of God. This is again the advocate in you who is drawing such inferences from my statements.

I am not fed up of you. Had it been the case I would not have recommended to the Admin of this site to help you in becoming the member of this forum. And I was the first person to do that. And while doing that I knew very well that you will start defaming the PBKs from the first day itself. And you have come true to my expectations.

Anyway, if, like shivsena Bhai your sole aim and objective of becoming a member of this forum is to defame PBKs and Baba Virendra Dev Dixit you are free to do so. You can continue doing so as long as this forum or this Confluence Age continues. I wish you good luck.

If I feel any of your questions is worth answering I will answer. If you wish to treat my silence on any of your questions as your victory you can very well proudly announce to the world. But I cannot waste any more time arguing with you.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by shivsena » 06 May 2009

arjun wrote:
Anyway, if, like shivsena Bhai your sole aim and objective of becoming a member of this forum is to defame PBKs and Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit you are free to do so. You can continue doing so as long as this forum or this Confluence Age continues. I wish you good luck.
Dear arjun Bhai.

My sole aim is to make the PBKs aware that advance knowledge is Krishna ki jhooti Gita which is resulting in girti kalaa of PBKs. I have no other aim. If you think that by quoting Murli points and proving the same, i am defaming the PBKs and Baba Dixit, then let me remind you that BKs think the same for PBKs. (''behad ka drama repeats itself''). Nothing new.

shivsena.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by pbkindiana » 06 May 2009

shivsena wrote:

My sole aim is to make the PBKs aware that Advanced Knowledge is Krishna ki jhooti Gita which is resulting in girti kalaa of PBKs. I have no other aim. If you think that by quoting Murli points and proving the same, i am defaming the PBKs and Baba Dixit, then let me remind you that BKs think the same for PBKs. (''behad ka drama repeats itself''). Nothing new.
Dear shivsena Bhai,
If any knowledge that has Krishna Dada lekraj's inteferrence, then no knowledge is true knowledge. So don't waste your time trying to awake the PBKs when you have not awaken yet. The difference between you and the PBKs is: you are reading the Sakar Murlis which had been interferred by brahma Dada lekraj and the PBKs are reading advanced knowledge that has brahma Dada lekraj's interferrence. When there is no true knowledge to date, no soul can go into the ascending stage. Only when there is true knowledge, then it becomes the day.

Om Shanti -- indie

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by sachkhand » 06 May 2009

arjun wrote:I called you a lawyer because you know very well that this Confluence Age is for 100 years as per Murlis and ShivBaba remains with His children for most part of it. Despite that you were trying to pass comments to belittle the PBKs by asking whether ShivBaba comes for a second
I have written atleast ten years, because then I did not know exactly what is the period of Confluence Age. There has been given different periods in Murlis like 40, 50, 60 and atleast 100. So I thought it better to write atleast ten years because in Lakshmi Narayan picture it is said that within ten years Bharat will become Shresthachari. So I thought it would be atleast 10 years.
If someone cross questions you , you take it as belittling you, but when you cross question our point of view which is different from the official point of view of AIVV you take it as personally for Virendra Dev Dixit. Are we not individuals sharing our point of views here. O.K.. Followers of PBK's are in large numbers. But that does not make you more authentic or authoritative about ShivBaba's knowledge.
arjun wrote:I never said that you are not the child of God. This is again the advocate in you who is drawing such inferences from my statements.
Thank you. I am sorry if I have misunderstood your statements.
arjun wrote:I am not fed up of you. Had it been the case I would not have recommended to the Admin of this site to help you in becoming the member of this forum. And I was the first person to do that. And while doing that I knew very well that you will start defaming the PBKs from the first day itself. And you have come true to my expectations.
I once again thank you very much for recommending to help me rejoin the forum.
But please think, is it not the advocate in you who is trying to give the verdict that my sole intention in rejoining this forum is to defame someone personally?
Please note, I am here to share my views about ShivBaba's knowledge. But I think we should agree to disgree.
arjun wrote:Anyway, if, like shivsena Bhai your sole aim and objective of becoming a member of this forum is to defame PBKs and Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit you are free to do so. You can continue doing so as long as this forum or this Confluence Age continues. I wish you good luck.
I feel sorry for your rigidness.
arjun wrote:If I feel any of your questions is worth answering I will answer. If you wish to treat my silence on any of your questions as your victory you can very well proudly announce to the world. But I cannot waste any more time arguing with you.
Thank you for reminding me that I should not get egoistic. Yes, I am fighting a war, but not against Virendra Dev Dixit or any PBK or BK or anyone else, it is against vices and ignorance. And thank you for helping me to be aware of subtle ego that engulfs. I am paying attention within me that while writing the above words it is not just words or just to belittle you, but it is actually from my heart.
I accept that if you are getting the feeling that my sole aim is to belittle Virendra Dev Dixit or any PBK, then surely there is that thought within me, although not very strong. But you see, Maya is very subtle. And henceforth I will take care not to allow such feelings to inspire my posts. I am doing purusharth not to please someone or for someone's benefit, it is for my own good first.
Thanks.
Sanjeev.

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Re: Confusing Answers.

Post by arjun » 06 May 2009

sachkhand wrote:I once again thank you very much for recommending to help me rejoin the forum.
Thanks for the kind gesture. But your thanks would be more meaningful if you reciprocate the same gesture by requesting the Admin to revoke the ban on another member of this forum. I could have done it myself, but that would have given someone a chance to level an allegation of partiality against me. So, I kept quiet.

You and shivsena Bhai feel that I am fed up of you. But I never stopped conversation with both of you. But shivsena Bhai gets fed up of the banned member every time that member replies to his post. Although this forum claims to be totally impartial when compared to all the other previous/present fora, yet a member was banned within a short period of the establishment of this forum. Does it not show who is fed up of whom?

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