PBK Party's perspective about the Subtle Region.

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new knowledge
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Post by new knowledge » 19 Sep 2007

arjun wrote:there is no Sakar Murli which says that there is life beyond this Earth. In fact ShivBaba has clearly said that there is no life beyond Earth.
Arjunbhai, do you believe in landing on moon by American astronauts? If yes, then those astronauts would have lived on moon for few days or at least for few hours. Thus this does not mean that life existed on moon (beyond the earth) though only for few days or few hours??? And those astronauts also would have performed some 'Karmic actions' like thinking, communicating whth each other, collecting stones on moon. Also 'Landing on moon' is that episode of the eternal World Drama which took place on moon & not on the earth. Then how could you say that the eternal World Drama takes place only on the earth?

But it may also be a possiblity that you do not believe in 'moon landing by American astronauts'. Even then, we should agree that though the astronauts may or may not have landed on moon, but they travel in the outer space far away (few thousands of Kilometers) from the earth for few days/months. And they live there, perform some 'Karmic actions' there. This episode of the eternal World Drama also does not take place on the earth.

If life existed though for few hours/days/months either on moon or in the outer space away from the earth,
then why not to accept the concept of 'multi life-worlds' which permanently exist at verious planets other than the earth?

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Post by arjun » 20 Sep 2007

Dear brother,

Om Shanti. When Baba says that there is no life beyond Earth, it means living beings belonging to other planets and not the living beings who go to a satellite of Earth for a few days and live on the basis of Oxygen borrowed from Earth's atmosphere. Even ShivBaba through Brahma Baba has referred to attempts by human beings to land on moon.

You say that there are millions of universes and independant living beings in those universes but you are giving an example of living beings who have gone for a few days to our own Earth's satellite, which is as good as a part of Earth. So, I don't think your argument holds any weight.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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button slammer
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Re: PBK perspective about the Subtle Region.

Post by button slammer » 20 Sep 2007

new world wrote:PBKs believe that the whole World Drama takes place in the corporeal world & that the Subtle Region does not exist beyond the corporeal world & Brahmapuri, Vishnupuri, Shankarpuri are just symbolic to represent the intellectual levels of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar respectively.

But on the basis of the Murli statement "Sukshmawatanwaasi Brahma (Brahma in Subtle Region) is not called as Prajapita", PBKs argue that as Brahma (Lekhraj Kirpalani) is not present here in the corporeal world & as he has become Sukshmawatanwaasi (residential of the Subtle Region), he cannot be called as Prajapita. Now if the Subtle Region is just symbolic & it does not exist, then how ... how Brahma became Sukshmawatanwaasi? If really the Subtle Region does not exist, then the word 'Sukshmawatanwaasi' is not logical.

Due to these contradictory perspectives about Subtle Region, it's very difficult to understand PBK concept of the Subtle Region.
First of all it is not PBKs who claim that Brahma Baba/Dada Lekraj is resident of the Subtle Regions in the sense that the BKs claim.

From my understanding, the BKs believe Brahma Baba to have attained a stage of completion/perfection/karmateet and left the body to perform angelic/unlimited service via the subtle body, and that he became free from the cycle of birth/death/rebirth.

He left the body without becoming recognized as Prajapita, so how can he be called as Prajapita. Names/titles are only given according to the role/task performed.

As a PBK there is the understanding that Brahma Baba died from fright/shock and left the body unexpectedly before attaining any title such as World Emperor/Prajapita.

PBKs are taught in the advance class that Brahma Baba now plays a part in a combined role, ie that of Shankar = Three souls in one body.
  • S=Shiva.
    K=Krisna/BrahmaBaba/Dada Lekraj.
    R=Ram/Prajapita/Virendra Dev Dixit.
The soul of Brahma Baba is depicted on the forehead of Shankar as a crescent moon.

By contemplating/churning the topics of the advance class as taught in the ancestral home of Baba/Virendra Dev Dixit in Kampil and continuing the study of those topics as clarified by ShivBaba/Virendra Dev Dixit, the student becomes deeply engrossed in matters pertaining to 'who am I, what role do I play, who with, when and where' ? This means the student is entering the self realisation level or 'the Subtle Regions'. As the soul of Brahma Baba is also going through the self realization stage it can be said that 'Brahma is a resident of the Subtle Regions'.

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Post by new knowledge » 20 Sep 2007

Thanks my bro button slammer for comming to the main topic of this thread. Actually I do not wish to discuss about whether Lekhraj Brahma is Prajapita or not. I refered that issue just to know about PBK point of view about the Subtle Region. What's your concept of the Subtle Region?
  • 1) Is it just symbolic to represent subtle stage of souls?
    2) does the Subtle Region really exist?
    3) If yes, then does it (the Subtle Region) exist temporarily within only the Confluence Aged Drama or for a long time period withoh the broad World Drama?
Please churn about these queries with reference to the following quotation.

=================
arjun wrote:In the Sakar Murlis, there are points to support both views. Some Murlis say that the Subtle Region does not exist and some Murlis say that although the Subtle Region exists, it is only for the Confluence Age.
new knowledge wrote:My Arjunbhai,

1) these both point of views goes in contrast with each other.
  • a) If (as mentioned in the first point of view) the Subtle Region really does not exist, then its temporary existance in the Confluence Age couldn't logically be accepted &
    b) if the Subtle Region really exists, then what's problem to accept that it exists also in other Ages (like Silver Age, Copper Age etc) other than the Confluence Age?
2) As the Corporeal World is composed of 5 elements - earth, water, air, fire & sky,
  • a) then of which component elements is the Subtle Region made of???
    b) Again if during the whole broad drama, the Subtle Region exists ONLY in the Confluence Age, then what happens to the component elements of the Subtle Region after completion of the Confluence Age? As nothing may be created or be destroyed, then into which elements (like earth, water etc) does the elements of the Subtle Region get converted?
    c) in other words, where does the Subtle Region get merged after the Confluence Age? - In the Paramdham? Or in the Corporeal World?
arjun wrote:]But the division of the Subtle Region into the abode of Brahm, Vishnu and Shankar is only symbolic -to represent the stages of Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar.
new knowledge wrote:1) Every existent entity has it's own divions, parts or strata. Then why don't you accept that the Subtle Region has its own divisions or hierarchical strata like the Abodes of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar?
2) If you accept that the Subtle Region is reality as well as symbolic,
  • a) then why not to accept that these three Abodes have real existance as well as they are symbolic?
    b) and why you strongly argue that these three Abodes are just symbolic & do not have real existance?
    c) Is there any quotation from Murlis or Ved-Shashras to support your claim?
arjun wrote:As per the Advanced Knowledge (and even basic BK knowledge as mentioned in Avyakt Vanis) all the Three Worlds also represent the corporeal, subtle and incorporeal stages of the soul during the Confluence Age.
new knowledge wrote:1) And as per the Divine Godly knowledge (Shrimat), during the UNLIMITED whole broad drama, as souls pass through the Incorporeal World, the Casual World, the Subtle Region & the Corporeal World, they acquire incorporeal, casual, subtle & corporeal stage respectively.
2) Thus all the worlds mentioned here a) have real existance & b) also represent verious stages (from incorporeal to corporeal), then ... then why not to accept that the Abodes of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar a) are not only representations of stages of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar respectively, b) but also simultaneously they have real existance ... ?

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Post by new knowledge » 21 Sep 2007

What's meant by 'subtle stage'? Is it just intellectual stage? If a person dies without practising Godly knowledge to achieve subtle stage & becomes ghost, then, due to attachment of his own dead body, is it write to say that he has achieved subtle stage, as he lives in subtle body???

Though Baba Virendra Dev Dixit has his own corporeal body, he is supposed to have subtle stage. Similarly, if a ghost who has attachment of body, then should he be declared to possess 'corporeal stage' though he is in the subtle body??? How is the term 'Corporeal Ghost'?

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Post by arjun » 23 Sep 2007

new_knowledge wrote:How is the term 'Corporeal Ghost'?
Dear brother,

Om Shanti. I think ShivBaba has come to make us 'angels' (that too while being in this body) and not 'ghosts' (corporeal or subtle).
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by new knowledge » 23 Sep 2007

arjun wrote:I think ShivBaba has come to make us 'angels' (that too while being in this body) and not 'ghosts' (corporeal or subtle).
My aim is not to be a corporeal ghost. I've refered the concept 'Corporeal Ghost' just for clear understanding of the concept 'the Subtle Stage'. What's subtle stage? Could a ghost, who has attachment of physical body, be entitled as having corporeal stage?

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Post by button slammer » 24 Sep 2007

dear admin
New k has hi-jacked this topic from the PBK forum and had it moved to the splinter forum. I feel as New K has originally addressed his topic specifically to PBKs re:
18 Jul 07
PBKs believe that the whole World Drama takes place in the corporeal world & that the Subtle Region does not exist beyond the corporeal world & Brahmapuri, Vishnupuri, Shankarpuri are just symbolic to represent the intellectual levels of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar respectively.

Then the topic should be replied to in the original forum. It is a subtle but significant move I feel. Personally I don't mind other groups visiting/asking questions/debating in the PBK forum. It gives the appearance that I am engaging in discussion/debate in the splinter section which was not my original intention.

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Post by bansy » 24 Sep 2007

topic should be replied to in the original forum
I somehow agree.

I understand new knowledge has changed his way of thinking but then a new thread can be created in this forum and referenced to an older thread. The title of this thread has also changed. Otherwise the blogs in this forum are following the changes similar to Murlis being edited over time.

I don't think it is wrong for people to change as they move with time. It is a natural process as we churn what is suitable for us. I am sure my own posts from the beginning may bear little similarities about how I feel today as I transform. This is something I accept.

This comment has no reference to PBK or Vishnu Party viewpoints.

BTW, the name of another thread had the word "Prejudiced" removed. This can confuse many who are following threads. I simply prefer the traditional way of moving forwards, instead of going back and forward.

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