Question for Shivsena and ex-pbks.

[Roy]

Imo, i feel that the last statement of all Sakar Murlis refers only to 108 king souls and not to 16000 praja or to 9 lakhs bhakts.....in the latest avaykt Vani dated 15-11-11 Bapa Dada is waiting for only "Bap-samaan 108" to get ready.The title of "Gyani atma" also goes to 108 souls only and not to 16000 or 9 lakhs.

You may well be correct in this Bhai, as we are waiting for the Rudra Mala of 108 to be formed, or probably more accurately, the bapsaman 8 or Ashta Dev. But rather than being diplomatic, i was hoping to include myself as one of the spiritual children; and my odds of getting into the 450,000, are much better than the 108... but i live in hope!

Roy

[shivsena]

I think the spiritual children in the strictest sense are the 108, because they are the ones who get closest to ShivBaba's incorporeal stage. They are the one's who practise being in the seed stage the most, emulating Baba Dixit's(Prajapita's) efforts, which result in him becoming Bapsaman... 100% soul conscious stage. But any soul in a body, who is making genuine spiritual effort based on recognition of ShivBaba through Advanced Knowledge, is a numberwise spiritual child. So it could relate to the 450,000 souls who survive destruction in its broadest sense.
Roy

When you say that BKs are kaurav, then how can 450,000 BK souls(who have never identified the Father) be sweet sikki-ladhe ruhani children of mat-pita BapDada.

[Roy]

When you say that BKs are kaurav, then how can 450,000 BK souls(who have never identified the Father) be sweet sikki-ladhe ruhani children of mat-pita BapDada.

Good question Bhai!

I have stated in a recent topic, that i have used "BKs" as a broad term, as opposed to PBKs for the Pandavas. But any soul who is opposing the part of Father, being played through Prajapita Brahma(Baba Dixit), in thoughts, words or actions, be they a BK or a PBK, is a Kaurav imo. But there will be souls who come over to the Pandav side, when they finally recognise this part, and they will enter the 450,000 that survive destruction. Lakshmi herself has still to recognise the living ShivBaba in Purushottam Sangamyug... but as Queen Bee, it is she who will be responsible for bringing the vast majority of the 225, 000 BKs over to the Pandav side i would imagine, once this recognition has been established.

It's the souls who at the very end are still opposing ShivBaba's personified role in Prajapita, that are probably the true Kauravs, what ever name they go by at this point in the drama.

Confluence Age Lakshmi is referred to as a Goddess in the Sakar Murlis, so i would imagine she is one of the spiritual children ShivBaba is referring to; even if she doesn't enter the 108 of the Rudra mala.

Roy

[shivsena]

and they will enter the 450,000 that survive destruction. Lakshmi herself has still to recognise the living ShivBaba in Purushottam Sangamyug... but as Queen Bee, it is she who will be responsible for bringing the vast majority of the 225, 000 BKs over to the Pandav side i would imagine, once this recognition has been established.
Roy

Dear roy Bhai.

Can you give any Murli point which proves that the figures 450,000 and 225,000 are indeed spoken by Shiva or they are just a clever teaching of Godly Maya....also what is the criteria as to who will leave the body in BKs and who will come in 450,000.

shivsena.

[Roy]

Can you give any Murli point which proves that the figures 450,000 and 225,000 are indeed spoken by Shiva or they are just a clever teaching of Godly Maya....also what is the criteria as to who will leave the body in BKs and who will come in 450,000.

Dear Shivsena Bhai

As far as i know, there is no direct Murli point that states that 450,000 souls will survive destruction. However; having been given this new information by the living ShivBaba, who is clarifying these aspects at this time, the clues for this information can be sought in the Murlis.

"Heaven(Ramraj) is established(begins) in the Confluence Age." [Mu 16.11.71]

"You should certainly obtain the inheritance of heaven(Ramraj) from the Father(Shiv, via Prajapita-Ram). The inheritance of heaven is received only in the Confluence Age, when the old world(Ravanraj) ends (in an unlimited sense, when the subtle Bhakti, and impure practices of the BK and PBK kingdoms have been finally destroyed), and the new world (of Ramraj) is established (in the Confluence Age itself). The inheritance is received in the Confluence Age, which becomes imperishable for the future(in the Golden Age, after final nuclear world destruction, in 2036)." [Mu 29.08.07]

"When did these Lakshmi-Narayan(Ram-Sita) rule? Neither in Kaliyug nor in Satyug(which is ruled by Radhe-Krishna). Heaven(Ramraj) is established(begins) in the Confluence Age. Others cannot think so deeply. People(PBKs) do not require so much elaboration. [Mu 16.11.71]

"(Confluence Aged)Ram & Sita become their(Radhe-Krishna's) best servant and maid servant(i.e. physical parents who bring them up in the Golden Age). [Mu 07.06.76]

"(Confluence Aged)Krishna's(Ram's) Kingdom(Sun Dynasty) is different, and Radha's(Sita's) Kingdom(Moon Dynasty of Brahma Baba) is different, then they got engaged(at the end of the Confluence Age, when Shiv Shankar or the living ShivBaba has been revealed to the world). Krishna(Confluence Age Ram) and Radha(Confluence Age Sita) were not siblings(Brother and Sister, like Radhe-Krishna of Golden Age). Do Brothers and Sisters get married to each other?" [Mu 03.11.77]

"There was one kingdom(not two as in the point above) and one language in the Golden Age, which is being established again now." [Mu 26.07.05]

"There is a difference between becoming a world Emperor(Confluence Aged Narayan-Prajapita-Ram) and an Emperor of Satyug(Narayan-Krishna-DL) also." [Av 28.01.85]

"Now we go to that world (of the PBKs of the Confluence Age). Only then do the children say we get transformed from a man to Narayan (in this very birth). It is also a story of True Narayan (of the Confluence Age) that we hear. It is not said to be a story of becoming a prince (like Krishna does, when he is re-born in the Golden Age). It is a story of True Narayan (Prajapita-Ram, who becomes World Emperor Shri Narayan of the Confluence Age). They(PBKs) consider Narayan(Krishna who becomes Narayan in the Golden Age) to be different. But there is no life story of Narayan (of the Golden Age - all the stories of the scriptures, relate to what takes place in the Confluence Age)." [Mu 19.07.05]

"Now if we do not become Godly children our degree will be lowered. The degree of this Lakshmi-Narayan(Radhe-Krishna) is less because there is no knowledge in them(after taking birth in the Golden Age). Brahmins have knowledge. What are the people lacking knowledge called? Illiterate. This Lakshmi-Narayan(Ram-Sita) cannot be called illiterate. They have got this post(in the Confluence Age itself) through knowledge. [Mu 05.06.70]

“Father (Shiv) alone establishes the pure family cult after coming down on earth. That is why four arms have been shown for Vishnu - Parvati(Sita) with Shankar(Ram), and Saraswati(Radhe) with Brahma(Krishna).” [Mu 23.01.90]

"Actually, Radha-Krishna(of the Golden Age) are Prince-Princess. They are siblings. He(Krishna-Dada Lekhraj) cannot be called Radha's(Mama Saraswati's) husband. [Mu 10.12.72]

"In the Golden Age, you were brother-sisters. There was no other relation(no marriages). [Mu 4.05.74]

"Conscious (reason) says, first male child's soul should enter (the womb). First male (Krishna) and later(shortly afterwards) female (Radhe) will take birth (they will be twins, born to Lakshmi-Narayan/Ram-Sita of the Confluence Age)." [no date at present]

"Nobody can leave (the drama) in between, everyone has to leave together. Although the world will not become completely empty at any point of time. The Ravana(opposing Brahmins of the Confluence Age) community leaves and doesn't return. However, these people (the 450,000 sun dynasty souls who follow Ram into Ramraj) remain." [Mu 26.04.74]

"There(in the Golden Age), in the beginning(2036 onwards), there will be 9-10 lakhs(900,000+ deity souls) on the entire Earth." [Mu 10.03.75]

"It takes approximately 50 years time (from 1969) for the destruction of Iron Age (Ravanraj Kingdom of the Confluence Age - i.e. opposing souls of ShivBaba) and establishment of Golden Age (or Ramraj, in the unlimited world of the Confluence Age). Some souls(450,000) remain after this(i.e. survive the mahabharata war of the Brahmin family). Then they establish their Kingdom afresh (over 18 years in Vishnupuri - finally giving birth to the next 450,000 deity souls, over a period of years after 2036, which eventually brings the Golden Age population, up to 900,000)." [Mu 11.02.73]

So although ShivBaba has never said in the Sakar Murli that 450,000 souls will survive destruction, and give birth to 450,000 deities in the Golden Age; we can see by taking a retrospective look at the relevant Murli points, that the clues have been given on this matter.

With regard to which BKs will enter the 450,000... it will be those who recognise the living ShivBaba, before the final Confluence Age mahabharata takes place within the Brahmin world....

"Mahabharat war is also fought in the Confluence Age, and not in the Golden or Iron Age. Pandavas and Kauravas are in the Confluence Age." [Mu 20.06.05]

Please note that the sections in brackets are interpretations based on Advanced Knowledge.

Roy

[fluffy bunny]

An honest question for ex-PBKs ... I am not an ex-PBK. I never gave myself to the AIVV and remain neutral towards them. I afford them the reasonable respect that I would any human being.

I would like to understand your anger or upset with Veerendra Dev Dixit and the AIVV.

Presumably you were an ex-BK before you became a PBK and then an ex-PBK.

Did you express your anger and upset at the BKs before you joined the PBKs and then did so towards them?

Why do you feel particularly upset or let down by Veerendra Dev Dixit and the AIVV?

Are you motivated by a sense of loyalty to the Brahma Kumaris?

Have you returned to being a Hindu or have you given up being religious?

Are you happy being non-religious/an atheist, or do you feel lost and alone?

Would you return to the BKWSU and accept it again?

Do you feel you are doing any good by attacking the Veerendra Dev Dixit and the PBKs?

Do you feel financially exploited by the AIVV?

How is your life going now? Are you content, is your personal and professional life going well?

Do you feel like you have recovered from your BK/PBK experiences or do they still trouble you?

Do you hold any individuals HERE personally responsible for what you experienced?

[Sach_Khand]

An honest question for ex-PBKs ... I am not an ex-PBK. I never gave myself to the AIVV and remain neutral towards them. I afford them the reasonable respect that I would any human being.

I would like to understand your anger or upset with Veerendra Dev Dixit and the AIVV.

Presumably you were an ex-BK before you became a PBK and then an ex-PBK.

Did you express your anger and upset at the BKs before you joined the PBKs and then did so towards them?
Ans: No.

Why do you feel particularly upset or let down by Veerendra Dev Dixit and the AIVV?
Ans: Because they are not standing for what they claimed. They raised so many questions on the bass of Murlis. And those questions were good. Initially I found there answers correct to some extent because I was not well informed regarding Murli points and liked to wait and watch the interpretations by Veerendra Dev Dixit hoping to get correct explanations to the querries I had. When I found that it would not happen I wrote to Veerendra Dev Dixit that hereafter I would go only on the basis of my understanding and not by faith or feelings towards him.

Are you motivated by a sense of loyalty to the Brahma Kumaris?
No. Not towards Brahmakumaris. But towards my own intention of following the path of spirituality and my efforts to understand the questions that arise in me regarding spirituality.

Have you returned to being a Hindu or have you given up being religious?
Ans: I have returned to our religious practices recently (for the sake of my mother) which I used to follow prior to BKs but have not given up churning Murli and BK knowledge. Actually, now I do not belong to any religion, am just a human being trying to understand Truth impartially.

Are you happy being non-religious/an atheist, or do you feel lost and alone?
Ans: I am not atheist. But I do not consider myself to be bound by any particular religion. I feel stable within always with a companion, God, based on my understanding (right or wrong).

Would you return to the BKWSU and accept it again?
Ans: Actually speaking, I have never left BKWSU. Sisters there told me not to attend their classes because I went to AIVV and listened to their explanations to Murli points.

Do you feel you are doing any good by attacking the Veerendra Dev Dixit and the PBKs?
Ans: I feel the question somewhat awkward. How can I attack someone even after following the path of spirituality. But yes, I question Veerendra Dev Dixit and AIVV inorder to to know their viewpoint and also to tally that with my own understanding so that if I need to be corrected I can correct myself or if I feel that they are wrong I can tell them so.

Do you feel financially exploited by the AIVV?
Ans: No. Never.

How is your life going now? Are you content, is your personal and professional life going well?
Ans: Presently I am going on well. Content. But was not the case few years back. Things started changing when I started to churn knowledge myself and stopped taking for granted what AIVV or Veerendra Dev Dixit says. I stared to get etter understanding of Murli points. Probably time factor also has its influence.

Do you feel like you have recovered from your BK/PBK experiences or do they still trouble you?
Ans: Looking back, I feel that the trouble was worth having. I have lost some worldly pleasures and also had to listen to comments of many people but I have gained much much more than the pains I went through.

Do you hold any individuals HERE personally responsible for what you experienced?
Ans: No. All what I did was my own decision.

Sanjeev.

[shivsena]

As far as i know, there is no direct Murli point that states that 450,000 souls will survive destruction.
So although ShivBaba has never said in the Sakar Murli that 450,000 souls will survive destruction, and give birth to 450,000 deities in the Golden Age; we can see by taking a retrospective look at the relevant Murli points, that the clues have been given on this matter.
Roy

Dear roy Bhai.

I do not believe in the theory of 4,50,000 souls surviving the destruction and 4,50,000 being born to 2,25,000 couples because this theory explains only the the future of only 9 lakh BK souls.... but what about the 16108 souls... how will they be divided....will half of PBKs(8054) leave the bodies and the other half(8054) will be born from the surviving PBKs....i cannot understand how this ''theory of halves'' is applied to the PBK family.

Can you please clarify.
shivsena.

[Roy]

I do not believe in the theory of 4,50,000 souls surviving the destruction and 4,50,000 being born to 2,25,000 couples because this theory explains only the the future of only 9 lakh BK souls.... but what about the 16108 souls... how will they be divided....will half of PBKs(8054) leave the bodies and the other half(8054) will be born from the surviving PBKs....i cannot understand how this ''theory of halves'' is applied to the PBK family.

Dear Shivsena Bhai

I am not sure how the 16108 are comprised, but i think they may come from the 225,000 Sun Dynasty souls, rather than the 225,000 Moon Dynasty souls led by Sister Vedanti. But whatever the situation is, i believe all of the 16108 will survive destruction.

The Murli point says 9-10 lahks, so i wouldn't get too caught up in the exact numbers myself. The simple math is, that approximately 450,000 souls will survive to give birth to approx 450,000 deities after destruction; but all of the 16108, will be paired within the 450,000 souls, who eventually become the Sun Dynasty souls that survive destruction.

Roy

[shivsena]

The Murli point says 9-10 lahks, so i wouldn't get too caught up in the exact numbers myself. The simple math is, that approximately 450,000 souls will survive to give birth to approx 450,000 deities after destruction; but all of the 16108, will be paired within the 450,000 souls, who eventually become the Sun Dynasty souls that survive destruction.
Roy

Dear roy Bhai.

Thanks for your views.
I believe in the simple theory that all 9,16,108 souls will survive the destruction numberwise and will transform their bodies as it is said in Murlis that first laxmi-narayan will come with all his praja.....i do not believe in the ''theory of halves'' as taught by AK since it has many ambiguities and does not make any sense to me.

shivsena.

[shivsena]

Dear fluffy Bhai.
Please read below in blue.

I would like to understand your anger or upset with Veerendra Dev Dixit and the AIVV.

Once you understand what part Veerendra Dev Dixit is playing then there is no real anger on Veerendra Dev Dixit or AIVV...there is just a little bit of frustration that i could not recognise the part that Veerendra Dev Dixit is playing and that whole Advanced Knowledge is a clever mayavi deception to take the PBKs for a ride in the name of truth( as per drama)....i have only to blame myself for having taken Baba Dixit and his Advanced Knowledge for granted.

Presumably you were an ex-BK before you became a PBK and then an ex-PBK.
Yes---you are right.....all PBKs are invariably ex-bks (with very few exceptions).


Did you express your anger and upset at the BKs before you joined the PBKs and then did so towards them?
Yes---i did express my anger and the same frustration that i am expressing now towards the PBKs....but now i also understand that each group is playing its part perfectly as per drama and that no one is to be blamed....and those who progress in Godly knowledge have this duty of speading the awareness of the incomplete nature of basic knowlege and ambigious nature of Advanced Knowledge, as they ascend the spiritual pyramid.

Why do you feel particularly upset or let down by Veerendra Dev Dixit and the AIVV?
To tell you frankly--yes... it was particularly upsetting in the initial years, when i felt let down by the person(Baba Dixit) whom i respected so much and thought that he was living GOD...but now i feel that Baba Dixit is not to be blamed at all, because the drama demands that he has to be playing the personified role of maya-ravan to mislead the PBKs.......it is the fault of PBKs who are not aware of Veerendra Dev Dixit's mayavi part and accept him blindly(without churning the Murlis/Vanis), as personified God.
As per Murlis "Maya has been given the part to make a fool of PBKs" and if the PBKs do not recognise Godly Maya,(inspite of repeated warnings in Vanis) then they have only to blame themsleves for it...mayavi partdhari cannot be blamed.

Are you motivated by a sense of loyalty to the Brahma Kumaris?
On my spiritual journey i have learnt a lot from BKWSU and AIVV...but my loyalty is neither towards BKWSU or towards AIVV...my loyalty is only towards my understanding of truth (how i interpret the Murlis/Vanis)....if i am right, then i will pass the exam and if i am wrong then i will fail...that is my belief in a nutshell.

Have you returned to being a Hindu or have you given up being religious?
I am still religious and still go to temples(not as a religious duty and only for sight-seeing) and try to follow the Hindu code of conduct.

Are you happy being non-religious/an atheist, or do you feel lost and alone?
I am not an atheist and i fully believe that in the combined motherhood -fatherhood of God ie. no. 1 shivshakti mamma-jagdamba.(unlike the bks-and PBKs)....i used to feel lost and alone during the period 1997-8 and 2007-8 till i read the bhakti-phrase "Shiva is shakti and shakti is Shiva" and the whole understanding of Gyan started becoming clear.

Would you return to the BKWSU and accept it again?
Once you start climbing the spiritual pyramid, then there is no looking back or downwards... either you stay where you are or you strive to climb further up.

Do you feel you are doing any good by attacking the Veerendra Dev Dixit and the PBKs?
I am not attacking Baba Dixit or PBKs...i am just opposing their teachings/beliefs and feel that it is my duty to share my views and experiences with my fellow BKs and PBKs. (lest they may catch my ears in the end and complain that you did not tell us about no. 1 shivshakti.)(as per Vanis)

Do you feel financially exploited by the AIVV?
No.....whatever seva i did was out of my sincere belief that i am spreading the message of GOD.

How is your life going now? Are you content, is your personal and professional life going well?
Life is pretty fine now and i am quite content now with my professional and personal life, but sometimes when i look back i do get feel some regret that i should have maintained balance between my lokik life and alokik life.....i have paid a heavy price on both professional and personal fronts for not having manitained a balance...but that again is part of drama and i cannot do anything about it now...it will repeat every Kalpa (just as i am writing this reply to you.)

Do you feel like you have recovered from your BK/PBK experiences or do they still trouble you?
I have recovered quite well and the spiritual journey was worth it....it has made me a lot wiser today...both in lokik and alokik life.

Do you hold any individuals HERE personally responsible for what you experienced?
All Individual souls are all playing their part perfectly and nobody is responsible for other's fortune or mis-fortune....each soul is responsible for his own actions and is the master of his own fate.

shivsena.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear fluffy Bhai.
I had replied to your earlier queries in another thread and i am reproducing them here in case you have not read them.
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Shivsena, if you really does not believe in The Knowledge as it is taught by both the BKWSU and AIVV ... ? why do you remain so hooked on it?

I believe in The Knowledge of both orgs, but i do not believe that they have interpreted the Murlis and Vanis correctly.....both are rightly playing their part as per this behad ka drama....i am certainly not hooked to it, but i have to duty towards the BKs and PBKs to make them aware of the fact that neither basic or Advanced Knowledge is the last stop in spiritual knowledge and there is more to Godly knowledge than meets the eye.

Why do you not just not let go and move on in life.
Since this is my life, where do i go from here. ("jeena yahan, marna yahan, isske sivaa jaana kahan")(meaning: Live here, Die here, where else to go.)

Is there any chance that it is just a irresolvable mental obsession going round and round in your mind rather than anything of any importance?
If you cannot see anything of importance in my posts then you are free to ignore them.

We all know that The Knowledge, as taught by the BKWSU, is not true and has be re-written and re-edited by silly and dishonest humans. I also agree with you that "Advanced Knowledge" also has failures and is at time illogical and inconsistent.
If you agree with the above fact that both knowledge are not the truth, then is it not your duty to make your fellow Brothers aware of the same!!

As much as I appreciate his efforts and accept he has made a serious influence upon the BKWSU and suffered at their hands, some of Veerendra Dev Dixit's responses are really disappointing and do not address the questions being asked.

VD's efforts are certainly laudable as far as igniting the churning process of knowledge is concerned....but i will not agree that he has suffered at the hands of BKs so much as he has inflicted pain and mental agony to BKs in return...also in this respect i have seen PBKs suffering more than BKs due to Ak. Have you ever taken Advance Course and have you been in close contact with the PBK family to realise what repercussions Ak has had on their lives and how badly it has affected their personal lives and profession.....Unless you take the Advance Course personally and talk to senior PBKs and ex-pbks only then you will understand why i have taken a stand to oppose the Advanced Knowledge.

Is there never a time when you think about just walking away from it all and becoming an ex-BK/PBK?

I am an ex-BK/PBK, but i see no reason why i should be just walking away from all this Godly knowledge, when i devoted my whole life to the pursuit of truth.
Would you just walk away from something, which you have devoted all your life for ??? (just because few souls insist on the same)

I, personally, think it might be good for you to step back and allow the BKs/PBKs to manage this forum ... as long as they allow you to continue posting as you wish. The forum needs updating and developing and you cannot do that alone. It requires a team working together do so.

I feel that forum is working fine and each party has been given their own sub-forum also to present their ideas and each member is totally free to discuss anything anywhere (provided it is done in a relevant healthy manner)
BKs have their own forum and PBKs have their own websites to propagate Ak.....so I personally see no reason for stepping back to let bks-pbks manage this forum.

Religion is a matter of faith. Most people are happy with illogical paradoxical beliefs. That is just the way it is. But it helps to allow people to fully express and explore what they believe in order to progress.

I fully agree with your views about religion and faith...but what we are discussing on the forum is about " what is truth" and " what is untruth"....if BKs and PBKs openly say that they are preaching religion(philosophy) and not the truth, then i will stop opposing them.....i do not go to other religious forums to oppose them.....i am here solely because both BKs and PBKs claim that they are preaching the truth but imo, they are just preaching a philosophy.....BKs are preaching omnipresence of GOD by teaching that Shiva is a point of light nirakaar(which is already known to the world) and PBKs are preaching the philosophy of " atma so paramatma" by teaching that one deh-dhari becomes God.

shivsena.

[bhagirath]

Shivsena, why are all your posts locked, do you not want anyone to reply or question even what you state so surely? Maybe we can discuss

[shivsena]

Shivsena, why are all your posts locked, do you not want anyone to reply or question even what you state so surely? Maybe we can discuss

Dear Bhagirath Bhai.

I can understand your concern about not being able to reply to my posts in the ex-pbk forum.....i was forced to take the decision of locking(after much thought), when i saw that there were un-necessary arguments on what i was posting and most times the discussion went off topic.....i also saw that most arguments were for the sake of argument and not for the sake of understanding a different viewpoint....so i decided to lock my posts in ex-pbk forum and make a seperate forum for discussion and debating.....my main aim is to build a database of Murli/Vani points which go against Advanced Knowledge and to list a set of queries to PBKs who think that advance Gyan is the last word in Godly Gyan.....in this way both objectives are achieved.....i can post in ex-pbk forum without any un-necessary debate and those who need further clarification, can write to me through private email or copy the relevant matter and post his views in the debating forum.....i am always open for discussion if it is done in a healthy manner.......we can always exchange views and then agree to dis-agree amicably.

shivsena.

[cal]

....I have yet to meet a PBK who has said that he has thrived financially after becoming a PBK - shivsena wrote in another post (Locked)

I know a PBK who made millions (multi millions) from a start-up company, roughly two years after beccoming a PBK.

Cal

[shivsena]

I know a PBK who made millions (multi millions) from a start-up company, roughly two years after beccoming a PBK.
Cal

Is he a staunch PBK or a casual PBK ??