Prajapati God Brahma

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
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Re: Points for churning

Post by fluffy bunny » 14 Jun 2015

Firstly, with reference to - viewtopic.php?f=40&t=1217&start=420#p49245 -
Is that a personal point of view or an official view of the new administration of this forum?
admin wrote:... or the understanding that Shiva was not properly comprehended for up to 20 years from the very beginning ...
Hold on ... let's drop the wishy-washy language.

Shiva was not "not properly comprehended". He was not at all known.

The importance of this revelation is that raises very serious questions, specifically about the judgement probity of the Brahma Kumari leadership, who publicly claimed for decades to have "purified" themselves during the bhatti ... by meditating on a god they did not recognise, name or know existed. At that time, the BKs basically held the same beliefs as the majority of Hindus, e.g. of an infinite Brahman being god.

So what were they having Yoga with?

(To a degree, it also raises questions about Virendra Dev Dixit as he apparently knew little to none about it either and repeated the BKWSU's erroneous version).
However, these aspects definitely serve as a powerful deterrent to souls, who may have inadvertently come in contact with The Knowledge, specifically designed to keep them segregated and separate from those who are actually involved with The Knowledge, so that they would not pose undue hindrance, and be a source of constant nuisance to such souls.
Now this is the biggest joke I have read in my entire BK life.

You are saying the above revelations ... primarily the revelation of the extent of the BKWSU's leadership dishonesty ... were deliberately designed to keep the likes of me away from questioning the BK leadership?

That's like the Christians claiming that dinosaurs did not exist and it was just the Devil who placed their bones in rocks to delude people.

Are you serious?

Can you give me a Murli point or quote from Virendra Dev Dixit which says that, or is it just your own manmat? It would appear contrary to The Knowledge to me.

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Re: Points for churning

Post by karan » 15 Jun 2015

The importance of this revelation is that it raises very serious questions, specifically about the judgement probity of the Brahma Kumari leadership, who publicly claimed for decades to have "purified" themselves during the bhatti ... by meditating on a god they did not recognise, name or know existed. At that time, the BKs basically held the same beliefs as the majority of Hindus, e.g. of an infinite Brahman being god.
Murli point does not say so. It says that the initial bhatti was different. Post No. 106 - http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... tti#p12388

But, Baba has also said that even that bhatti is important.

If we strictly attach ourselves to words alone, then we cannot proceed even a step. For example,
Baba says - "Knowledge sits only in a pure intellect". Now, we may argue - Without Knowledge (obviously in the beginning there would be no Knowledge), one cannot be purified. And, since everyone is impure in the beginning, no Knowledge can sit on anyone's intellect. So, how may a person start, at all? Then we may conclude the whole of Bk theory is false, (even the concept of Shiva or God being with them in the beginning).

So, I believe there is need for at least some purity - Purity in a lower (lokik) level, like that of child. Then only some threshold level of Knowledge will sit. Then real bhatti will begin, which will burn the sanskaars. But, that older bhatti also will give some relief, as negative thoughts are absent; and there was some Knowledge of heaven. Baba also says - remember Father and property. So, to remember property is also like one step ahead of lokik purity.

Like when a dirty person takes a shower, the person feels some purity, but only after eating food he will become powerful. Similarly, the initial bhatti was like taking a shower, and the later bhatti is like having food and power of immunity.
So what were they having Yoga with?
Interestingly, in topic No. 84 - http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... &start=110 (see last para or Murli point No. 06), Baba says B Baba used to remember ONE Father ONLY after sacrificing lokik Gita.

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Re: Ideological interpretation of the Yagya History - REVs .

Post by shivsena » 20 Aug 2015

Can anyone please post the picture of Dada Lekhraj which shows that he was worshipped as GOD prajapita Brahma in the initial years of the Yagya.....a senior bk wants proof when i told him that there was no mention of Shiva for first 20 years and Brahma was worshipped as God for 20 years.....thanks.

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by sita » 20 Aug 2015


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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by shivsena » 20 Aug 2015

Thanks...sita.

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by fluffy bunny » 20 Aug 2015

Have they read all the original documents available from the 1930s and 40s, proving it?

It's a strange request to ask for a picture when hardly anyone had cameras, back then.

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by sita » 21 Aug 2015

fluffy bunny wrote:Have they read all the original documents available from the 1930s and 40s, proving it?
It's a strange request to ask for a picture when hardly anyone had cameras, back then.
Yes, in fact this seems to be a picture of Krishna, I think, so is it from later period? Can we date it? When did the conception that Dada will become Krishna develop?

The senior BKs may have a valid point, because, OK we have the documents about Prajapita God Brahma, but does this prove that they "worshipped" him? Like this picture, does it prove they "worshipped" him as Krishna. Like today when Dadis dress in crowns, everyone will say it is just a game, just for fun, it is not a worship.

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by fluffy bunny » 21 Aug 2015

I think this "worshipped" business is just a bit of a semantic distraction ... word play.

The main issue is that there was no mention, nor knowledge of Shiva in the religion until after 1955, that Lekhraj Kirpalani was considered to be God Brahma and the Gita Sermoniser.

So how were they "purifying" themselves by having Yoga, etc.?

And I am still interested in the events around the time when they decided there was a Shiva, how it came out and how they reacted. Dadi Janki would know and remember but she has been very impurely hiding it all this time.

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by sita » 21 Aug 2015

Well, God is one. He has many names and many forms. You don't have that problem in India. You can worship one form, then another, and it is not hypocrisy, it is the same God.

Given the abundance of doctrines stating that self is god than that he is different is not gross. In the beginning self was seen as god 'aham brahm asmi'. Not just Brahma Baba, Mama everyone was god.

Then the idea of some separate entity working was there in the mind of Brahma still in Benares. Then when it is mentioned incarnation of Vishnu, in incarnation we also have the idea of coming. Then Brahma Baba used to send trance messengers so obviously to some different entity/place.

Indeed the name Brahma is strange as he is no popular god, so it is possible that it has been suggested to him, because he would just be Krishna and Vishnu by choice, being a Vishnu devotee. Same with Shiva.

So the knowledge changes with time as the understanding changes, because it is something to comprehend. I would not expect that the truth is there written somewhere and I read it and that's it. We learn like a child, first with toys then with real things. I would not be surprised to 180 degrees change in conceptions, because the distance in time matters and the last conception is the most actual. It is a revelation, so it has to be gradual. We will understand the complete truth only at the end.

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by mbbhat » 21 Aug 2015

I am yet to be sure whether the picture of B Baba shown in the above site is really old (or just scanned and uploaded into the site) or later prepared by photoshop, etc.

BTW, Baba has also said in Murlis (almost in right words)- "Take a photo of yourself wearing a deity dress and crown, and keep on seeing it. It will remind you that you are going to be a deity. You will have the intoxication as well, whenever you remember this, you will not get affected by vices".

So, even if that picture had been old, I neither get surprised, nor feel it is wrong.

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by fluffy bunny » 21 Aug 2015

mbbhat wrote:I am yet to be sure whether the picture of B Baba shown in the above site is really old (or just scanned and uploaded into the site) or later prepared by photoshop, etc.
Why not just check with your Seniors instead of attempting to seed doubt?

This is why I say you are lazy and negative (unspiritual). You could make an effort to help progress an understanding, instead you choose to make an effort that muddies the water of truth.

The picture is genuine but I doubt it signifies "worship". It was probably just dressing up and play acting as Krishna, as we know beyond doubt Lekhraj Kirpalani considered himself to be Krishna and the Om Mandli women were his gopis.
sita wrote:Well, God is one. He has many names and many forms. You don't have that problem in India. You can worship one form, then another, and it is not hypocrisy, it is the same god.
That's not entirely true. For most Indians there were and still are many gods, demi-gods and levels of spirits. The "God is One" is only just another view attempting to unite or take over opposing sects.
In the beginning self was seen as god 'aham brahm asmi'. Not just Brahma Baba, Mama everyone was god.
Lekhraj Kirpalani was Prajapati God Brahma. No one else was referred to as God or the Gita Sermoniser.

I am also not sure of the conception of the self at that time. It appears that the Brahma "Divine Light" was seen as something separate and inert. They state Lekhraj Kirpalani was "superior" to that "god".

There's a lack of clarity about their beliefs.
Then Brahma Baba used to send trance messengers so obviously to some different entity/place.
Again, that's not clear. I am sorry, but the later re-interpretations are highly unreliable.

For example, at one point they most clearly "discovered" another Lekhraj Kirpalani in the Subtle Regions and had difficulties in reconciling how there could be two LKs. So was it another being or was it part of Lekhraj Kirpalani?

Through the 30s and 40s Lekhraj Kirpalani is clearly referred to as the Gita Sermoniser and there is no mention of another soul or source. I do not know when it evolved but at some point they clearly thought the source was Lekhraj Kirpalani. It's strange that they don't mention the other beings as beings.

Perhaps that part of the history has been hidden or destroyed? (Piyu Vanis, all the publications they buried before leaving the Sind).

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by mbbhat » 21 Aug 2015

Why not just check with your Seniors instead of attempting to seed doubt?
There is neither senior, nor junior to me - all are just actors/souls to me. Of course, ShivBaba, Mama, Brahma Baba are definitely all time Seniors to me.

Of course, in another sense, all are Seniors to me including you or any soul- because Baba says, pahley aap = first you.

And, in another sense, all are juniors to me, as Baba says, you are 'poorvaj' souls = ancestors or master jagat pita and jagat mata.

Thank you dear, sweet, great, innocent, intelligent and complete soul!
-----
BTW- I have already replied to your question. I have no expectations from others, so I have no need to ask them. In case you yourself feel such a need, you may ask them yourself directly or through someone who also feels he has a need to ask like you. I will just try like catching some fruit falling from a tree. And, for me, both - either if the picture is genuine, or false, does not matter much.

Moreover, it is said- "one that is received without desire is milk, one that is received by desire is water. The one that is received by asking someone or with a burden, is like blood". Which is better?

And- if you like to know more, it is also said- "at the right time, truth will be revealed". So why hurry? Why press the mango to make it ripe?

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by fluffy bunny » 21 Aug 2015

Just another excuse to do nothing, as usual ...

You know who I mean by "Seniors" whether you think they are or are not.

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