AIVV false story of Om Radhe Mama

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
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Re: AIVV false story of Om Radhe Mama

Post by warrior » 10 May 2011

ANU wrote:
First, Om Radhe Mama was born in 1919.
Please hard facts now, show the proof now instead of just repeating this is a lie and that is a lie. Maybe you can enlighten us all about the the true events of the yagia. Remember, BK literature will not appeal to this audience as real proof for anything.
aum

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Re: AIVV false story of Om Radhe Mama

Post by arjun » 11 May 2011

anu wrote:I was taught in the Yagya in AK that Jagadamba Kamla Devi was on the household path with Prajapita. She made the path of the household possible in AK.

If Jagadamba was only a yagyamata, as arjun says, who and were was her partner, so that she could become a mata? And who was a partner of Jagatpita in the household path? Acc. to AK teachings Prajapita is ALWAYS on the household path, unlike BK sanyasis?
In the Confluence Age everyone has a household with Shiv and not fellow brother-like souls. Jagdamba was just playing the role of yagyamata.

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Re: AIVV false story of Om Radhe Mama

Post by ANU » 11 May 2011

arjun wrote:In the Confluence Age everyone has a household with Shiv
Then all BKs are on the path of household. Why then do AIVV criticise BKs that all of the are sanyasi?
According to AIVV teachings Shiva is always in nivritti, he does not create pravritti.
When Baba Virendra Dev Dixit explained the change in the Yagya when Yogini was first considered as mother, he explained that now she is a part of pravritti for Prajapita.

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Re: AIVV false story of Om Radhe Mama

Post by ANU » 11 May 2011

worrior wrote: Please hard facts now, show the proof now instead of just repeating this is a lie and that is a lie. Maybe you can enlighten us all about the the true events of the yagia. Remember, BK literature will not appeal to this audience as real proof for anything.
Take into consideration the literature about the Yagya written by witnesses of that time (e.g. Hardy Hardayal) and compare them with official documents accepted by courts and judges from 1937-1938 signed by Mama Om Radhe as a representative of the Yagya. A inmature (under 18) girl could not do this work and her signature would not be accepted in any official organisations. Then, count and compare with the date of birth of Om Radhe announced by BKs in the literature about her. And you will receive proofs from various independent sources showing that Om Radhe was not 14 years old when she came to the Yagya and surrendered to Baba, but much elder. Otherwise, we would have to accept year 1932-33 as the year of her surrending to the Yagya.

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Re: AIVV false story of Om Radhe Mama

Post by arjun » 11 May 2011

anu wrote:Then all BKs are on the path of household. Why then do AIVV criticise BKs that all of the are sanyasi?
No. They are sanyasis because they do not have any mother and Father in practical. They have just Dadis, Didis, Dadas but no mother or Father. But we, PBKs, have a Yagya mother and a Yagya Father in practical.
According to AIVV teachings Shiva is always in nivritti, he does not create pravritti.
He is in nivritti (renunciation) before and after the Confluence Age, but not during the Copper Age. When He takes up a Chariot (especially the appointed Chariot) He becomes the pati-parmeshwar (God as husband) for all the souls.

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Re: AIVV false story of Om Radhe Mama

Post by warrior » 11 May 2011

ANU wrote: ... compare them with official documents accepted by courts and judges from 1937-1938 signed by Mama Om Radhe as a representative of the Yagya. A inmature (under 18) girl could not do this work and her signature would not be accepted in any official organisations.
Anu

Om Shanti,
I will try one more time: What is the proof?
Show us here the official documents and also her signature in any official papers.

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Re: AIVV false story of Om Radhe Mama

Post by ANU » 11 May 2011

arjun wrote:No. They are sanyasis because they do not have any mother and Father in practical. They have just Dadis, Didis, Dadas but no mother or Father. But we, PBKs, have a Yagya mother and a Yagya Father in practical.
PBKs do not have Jagadamba either. The person called by PBKs 'Jagadamba' is not a member of the community any more. For many years, over a decade now. So the mather is not practically with them.
He is in nivritti (renunciation) before and after the Confluence Age, but not during the Copper Age. When He takes up a Chariot (especially the appointed Chariot) He becomes the pati-parmeshwar (God as husband) for all the souls.
If this is the case, there would be no difference for Baba if Jagadamba left or not. Prajapita would be still on the path of household any way. But he took Yogini as a part of his path of household which was announced in classes and explained that this was needed so that Prajapita remained on path of household. There are at least few classes and few discussions in which Prajapita's path of household was explained in this way.

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Re: AIVV false story of Om Radhe Mama

Post by ANU » 11 May 2011

worrior wrote:I will try one more time: What is the proof?
Show us here the official documents and also her signature in any official papers.

Independent literature in which you may find relevant information about Om Radhe as a mature woman 1937-38:
Gender and nation; Nehru Memorial Museum and Library
Indian Annual Register Volume I 1939; National Library Calcutta
Sarkar on the law of criminal procedure Volume 1; National Library Calcutta
The law of criminal procedure: with all amendments up to 1955; S.C. Sarkar 1956; National Library Calcutta

Hardayal Hardy about Om Radhe in 1938:
' Om Radhe, young unmarried woman was in charge of the organisation. She was a talented girl and I have seldom seen so much wisdom and virtue as I found in her.' [...] 'She was about 25 years old.' (Hardayal Hardy was a chief justice of India who personally visited Om Mandali and wrote about them in his books)

Three Modern Styles in the Hindu Tradition; L. A. Babb
'In 1937 Lekhraj established a Managing Committee of several women follower, with his principal disciple, a woman known as Om Radhe, names as 'In Charge'.


An example of documents created and signed by Om Radhe (it is a photocopy of one of documents available through Center for Studies in Social Science in Calcutta). The following document consists of many pages. Below, you will find a copy of the first and the last page.
Om Radhe as president.pdf
(197.93 KiB) Downloaded 174 times

Additional information about the age of Om Radhe in 1938:
The book written by Om Radhe, Is this Justice, 1939, available in Brittish Museum

And finally the BKs declaration that Om RAdhe was born in 1919 remain in accordance with the data available in all other sources not connected with BKs.

To conclude:
We may assume based on available sourses that in 1937/38 Om Radhe Mama was at least 18 years, which would allow her to officially represent the Yagya in the outside world. There are documents available (like the one in pdf file) which show Om Radhe as a person officially representing the Yagya in early 1938; a girl under 18 could not do it. This remains in contradiction to AK teachings that Om radhe was 14 years when she surrendered to Brahma Baba in 1936.

I hope details along with documents will be publish in the book I mentioned somwhere in one of my posts.

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Re: AIVV false story of Om Radhe Mama

Post by arjun » 11 May 2011

anu wrote:An example of documents created and signed by Om Radhe (it is a photocopy of one of documents available through Center for Studies in Social Science in Calcutta). The following document consists of many pages. Below, you will find a copy of the first and the last page.
I cannot say much about the age of Om Radhey Mama at the beginning of the Yagya, but as far as the above document uploaded by anu is concerned, the signature seems to be a typed one and not a signature affixed by hand. Generally, in a signature there is no space between alphabets as they are joined with each other. But in the above document all the alphabets are separate leading to a doubt whether it is a signature or typed version.

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Re: AIVV false story of Om Radhe Mama

Post by warrior » 12 May 2011

ANU wrote:his remains in contradiction to AK teachings that Om radhe was 14 years when she surrendered to Brahma Baba in 1936.
I hope details along with documents will be publish in the book I mentioned somwhere in one of my posts.
Thanks Anu,
Good effort!
But, there is a but, the signature is a bit dodgy and there is no stamp or heading on this document nether. IMOP there is no evidence of whatsoever in your findings.

You said before that you were doing research for a Thesis and now you are saying that you will publish a book. Or, are you looking to rework a thesis into a book?
aum

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Re: AIVV false story of Om Radhe Mama

Post by ANU » 12 May 2011

warrior wrote:You said before that you were doing research for a Thesis and now you are saying that you will publish a book. Or, are you looking to rework a thesis into a book?
You must have missed something in my posts. I am not writting thesis. I did some research and contacted Indian organisations before my leaving India in 2010 to help someone in the west who was doing research. I myself will not write a book, but the person who writes thesis. I only did some helping work in gathering sources in India.

Please refer to my previous posts for confirmation.

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Re: AIVV false story of Om Radhe Mama

Post by pbkindiana » 13 May 2011

Anu wrote:
Three Modern Styles in the Hindu Tradition; L. A. Babb
'In 1937 Lekhraj established a Managing Committee of several women follower, with his principal disciple, a woman known as Om Radhe, names as 'In Charge'.
This is completely false as it is mentioned in SM that there were 'two mothers who run the show in the beginning' and om Radhey, a young kanya is not the incharge.

Om Radhey was selected as the incharge only after the two mothers' demise.

indie.

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Re: AIVV false story of Om Radhe Mama

Post by Roy » 13 May 2011

pbkindiana wrote:This is completely false as it is mentioned in SM that there were 'two mothers who run the show in the beginning' and om Radhey, a young kanya is not the incharge.Om Radhey was selected as the incharge only after the two mothers' demise.
Many good sisters (achhi achhi bachhiyan) who used to bring directions for even Mama-Baba, and used to make them perform drill (of meditation), we used to follow their directions. [Av 15.6.69, 28.5.69]

They used to teach drill to Mama-Baba, and used to give directions, “do like this”. They used to sit like teachers. We used to think that their number in the rosary will be high. Even they disappeared. Look how Maya slaps the children! [28.5.78]


Brahma only has to become vanni (wife). Baba himself says-He is my vanni. I enter into him and make you my children through him. He is the true elder mother and she happens to be an adopted mother. You can call them as mother and Father. ShivBaba is called only a Father. This is Brahma Baba.Mama is incognito. Brahma is mother, but the body is male. He will not be able to take care. That is why daughter (bachhi) has been adopted. She has been named Mateshwari. She is the head. As per drama there is only one Saraswati. As for the rest there are many names like Durga, Kali, etc. Parents are one only. All of you are the children. It is also famous that Saraswati is the daughter of Brahma. You are Brahmakumar-kumaris, isn’t it? You are given many names. Even among you all these matters will be understood numberwise.” [Mu 11.11.05]

Actually, Brahma-Saraswati are not Mama-Baba. [21-7-77]

This is Sun of Knowledge. This secret Mama is different. This secret is hardly understood or explained by anyone. The name of that Mama is different. Temples are built for her. Is there any temple for this secret old Mother (Brahma)? [Mu 17-11-77]


Roy

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Re: AIVV false story of Om Radhe Mama

Post by warrior » 13 May 2011

ANU wrote: You must have missed something in my posts. I am not writting thesis. I did some research and contacted Indian organisations before my leaving India in 2010 to help someone in the west who was doing research. I myself will not write a book, but the person who writes thesis. I only did some helping work in gathering sources in India.
Is anyone else here thinking what I am thinking?
This sounds fishy...this story is like the one of Bhai Sahib that Dada Lekhraj created in the beginning of Yagya.

aumshanti everyone!

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Re: AIVV false story of Om Radhe Mama

Post by ANU » 13 May 2011

warrior wrote:Is anyone else here thinking what I am thinking?
This sounds fishy...this story is like the one of Bhai Sahib that Dada Lekhraj created in the beginning of Yagya.
I cannot make it up. What do you want to say?
I know that PBKs are creating new story of the Yagya, even many stories depending on the part of the world.

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