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Re: PBK Shivsena's beliefs

Post by pbkindiana » 16 Aug 2008

ex-l wrote:The "yukti" or intellectual device you are using here, pbkindiana (and it is common within the BK movement), is a fallacious argument known as "The Excluded Middle". An "either-or" fallacy. That is, to suggest there are only two alternatives when there are more, e.g. "being a traitor" is the only alternative to being a "faithful PBK". I would suggest that 'knowledge', 'wisdom' or 'enlightenment' lies somewhere between the two extremes.
Dear ex-l Bhai,

We are talking here about concrete proof where the world will immediately accept personified form of Almighty Authority Shiv. So far either in the bk or pbk world, there is no concrete proof to make the world bow down to the Almighty Godfather in a second. All we have is paperwork where the intellect recognizes God's words and we accept that exclusive personality to be the appointed Chariot of Father Shiv. So it is your prerogative to say what you like or to follow anyone's methodology.
The PBKs fear to look at reality and instead hide their heads in revised and re-written pieces of papers, produced by the antagonistic BKWSU, at a distance in time and geography from reality. Why cannot one PBK take the courage and go and look into the claimed history of Shewkram/Sevakram?
Sorry to disappoint you as there is no fear at all in any PBKs as we have found Father.The only reason we are unable to produce any evidence is that we have no access to the original Sakar Murlis.
From our study of history, we now know that there was no awareness of Shiva existence prior to at least 1950 and the BKWSU does not wish to discuss of evidence the "mystical" introduction of it/him post-1950, nor its historical revision. Veerendra Dev Dixit appears to know very little about all this and throws the question back to us "on the internet"
MU 23/7/69 -- "She was associated with the Yagya and often used to go into trance, she even tutored Mama and Baba. Father (Supreme Soul) entered her, to give directions. So high was their status. Today they are not here. At that time there not so much knowledge."
This Murli quote denotes that prior of entry in Dada Lekraj, Shiv has entered the mother Also it is mentioned is Murli dated:

8/7/78 -- Very good children played excellent role for 5/10 years then admitted defeat." So according to my calculations, Confluence Age started in 1937 and after 10 years was 1947 and nobody knows when this mother left her body exactly for Shiv to enter Dada lekraj. Also nobody knows when was exactly Dada lekraj being conferred the title as "Brahma Baba" as it is said in Murli dated 12/10/74: -- "The title of Brahma is attributed only when Father makes the entry." So only those who were present during the initial period with Brahma Baba can disclose everything.
Surely history would present up some leads, even as simple as biographical details, birth, death, business status, family etc ... perhaps some insightful stories?
Yes, I agree with you. Certainly there should be some evidence but the PBKs have no access to it.
At present, the evidence presented is against the case. Sevakram was the secretary of the Anti-Party and owed money to Lekhraj Kirpalani at the time of Om Mandli. Amongst high level court proceedings, neither he nor his wife is not listed amongst Om Mandli members as of 1937/38, nor is he documented?
I really don't have any idea about sevakram or what happen during his era so I am sorry to say that i am unable to debate with you regarding this topic.
How do we explain that? Or do you argue that we don't. We just adopt the position of blind faith?
I am not interested in sevakram or what happened during his era as the PBKs have no documentation of sevakram's biography. I am only interested in Baba Virendra Dev Dixit as I have absolute faith that he is the appointed Chariot of Supreme Father Shiva. Also around 7 or 8 years ago, the BK HQ asked Baba Virendra Dev Dixit to proof that he is ShivBaba. That is a logical query asking someone to proof of his present status and not to delve the past when it is not beneficial. What the world wants to see is the personified form of the Almighty Authority Father and not sevakram.
It is not a little bit strange that God enlightened Veerendra Dev Dixit has no insight, no information or has not done so himself? (And, BTW, has the original Sevakram's wife and medium also reincarnated?).
Well, will you believe it if he reveals everything to your queries and become a staunch pbk

Om Shanti -- indie

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Re: PBK Shivsena's beliefs

Post by fluffy bunny » 16 Aug 2008

ex-l wrote:Surely history would present up some leads, even as simple as biographical details, birth, death, business status, family etc ... perhaps some insightful stories?
pbkindiana wrote:All we have is paperwork where the intellect recognizes God's words and we accept that exclusive personality to be the appointed Chariot of Father Shiv ... The only reason we are unable to produce any evidence is that we have no access to the original Sakar Murlis ... Yes, I agree with you. Certainly there should be some evidence but the PBKs have no access to it.
The Murlis are not "proof". They are, at best, witness statements. The word "Proof" has become to mean something else specific to PBKs.

Then why will no PBK go and look for concrete evidence? Start with reading 'Is this Justice?' and work from there.

I am afraid that your head disappears not into the sand but into a concrete block towards the end of your reply. No one is threatening your faith ... just why wont any PBK do the logical and interesting thing ... and go dig out the history to prove the claims?

Its like dealing with 'The 3 Wise Monkeys' ... "there is no evidence because I will not look at it, listen to it or say what I know".

Yes, the more factual, objective, third party evidence the better ... it would make a HUGE different to all BK, PBK initiates or adherents.

And that goes as much for Shivsena as anyone else.

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Re: PBK Shivsena's beliefs

Post by pbkindiana » 16 Aug 2008

Dear ex-l,

If you do not have faith in Sakar Murlis, then there is nothing debatable with you.
shivsena wrote:as I am enjoying what I understand from Murlis and Vanis.
Dear shivsena Bhai,

Also you are enjoying criticizing the other PBKs for reading advance knowledge.
If at any time in future you feel that you are being mislead by PBK Advanced Knowledge, then you can remember Ramshivbaba and he will definitely guide you out of the dark tunnel. If anytime in future, I feel that i have taken a wrong step by propagating that Advanced Knowledge is jhooti Gita, then I will not hesitate to ask forgiveness from ShivBaba and again I will go to do 7 days bhatti at Kampil to understand Advanced Knowledge from the beginning to see where I faulted. Till then let us stick to our beliefs and let truth manifest itself.
Yes, sir.
OK - Jai Shri Ram.
I am aware that all of us are still practising Bhakti but not to the extent of reciting a Bhaktimarg mantra. I wish you all the best of reciting your, 'Jai Shri Ram' and attain sadgati.

Om Shanti -- indie.

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Re: PBK Shivsena's beliefs

Post by fluffy bunny » 16 Aug 2008

Indie,

truthfully, is finding hard evidence (either pro or con), so frightening that you have to attempt such as easy device to cut my voice out and ignore the possibility concrete evidence?

Can you not even see the benefit of it for the sakes of service?

My "faith" is in finding the truth IF we pursue it. "Knowledge" comes from "knowing" ... not the subduing of reasonable doubts, logic nor suppressing questions.

Imagine, for example, it turned out that Sevakram had not died in 1942 (approx) but lived until after Virendra Dev Dixit was born ... then what would we do? Or, alternatively, that his family was alive and kept all sort of record proving his involvement, or "recognised" Virendra Dev Dixit ... is that not intriguing enough for you?

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Re: PBK Shivsena's beliefs

Post by shivsena » 16 Aug 2008

pbkindiana wrote: Dear shivsena Bhai,
Also you are enjoying criticizing the other PBKs for reading Advanced Knowledge.
Dear indiana.
It is your perception that i enjoy criticizing PBKs whom i see as my brothers.

I am just trying to awake my pbk brothers, as much as the PBKs are trying to awake the bk brothers by giving them explanations of advance knowledge. If you feel that i am doing something wrong, then the BKs would also feel likewise for PBKs. (but that would not deter you from giving them advance knowledge, so i feel likewise). And the BKs in turn would feel the same towards the souls of the outside world. That is the beauty of this Godly knowledge: each soul on different platform(as shown in pyramid) will view the knowledge differently and would feel that he is doing the right service.

shivsena.

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Re: PBK Shivsena's beliefs

Post by arjun » 16 Aug 2008

ex-l wrote:Surely history would present up some leads, even as simple as biographical details, birth, death, business status, family etc ... perhaps some insightful stories?

At present, the evidence presented is against the case. Sevakram was the secretary of the Anti-Party and owed money to Lekhraj Kirpalani at the time of Om Mandli. Amongst high level court proceedings, neither he nor his wife is not listed amongst Om Mandli members as of 1937/38, nor is he documented?

How do we explain that? Or do you argue that we don't. We just adopt the position of blind faith?

It is not a little bit strange that God enlightened Veerendra Dev Dixit has no insight, no information or has not done so himself? (And, BTW, has the original Sevakram's wife and medium also reincarnated?).
Yes, it would be interesting to dig out the exact history of Sevakram, but most PBKs are content with whatever information they get from ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit). Many questions regarding the history of the Yagya are raised by PBKs during the discussion classes but nobody has any concrete proofs so far. And nobody is willing to do the research work either.

According to the PBK version of the Yagya history, it is believed that Shiv entered first in Sevakram to narrate the secrets of the visions caused to Dada Lekhraj at Calcutta after he failed to get the answers from his lokik gurus and from Hindu pandits at Varanasi (its proof is available in the Revised Sakar Murli dated 23/24.08.08 to be released by BKs on Janmashtami). Shiv narrated the secrets to his wife (generally referred as Gita mata by PBKs, but it may not be the actual name). During this process another lady (referred to as Radha bachchi by PBKs, but this again may not be the actual name) also heard this narration. Sevakram's wife then narrated the secrets of the visions to Dada Lekhraj. Later on this spiritual family shifted to Sindh, Pakistan where the foundation of Om Mandali was laid.

My research about the history of Yagya has been restricted to the documents published by the BKWSU, like the interview with Khushiram Chugani published in Gyanamrit magazine and the biography of Dadi Nirmalshanta (Brahma Baba's daughter) who has lived mostly in Calcutta. Both the documents have already been discussed on this forum.

I have also mentioned that some PBKs tried to contact Brahma Baba's son in the past to discuss the Yagya history, but he was not interested.

One way to research the history could be to post querries about the Yagya history on non-BK sites (like orkut, yahoo, etc.) including questions regarding the relatives of Dada Lekhraj or their descendants. If any computer savvy descendant of Dada Lekhra/Sevakram's relatives can be contacted, then we can get access to any of the aged relatives/documents from that period.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: PBK Shivsena's beliefs

Post by pbkindiana » 16 Aug 2008

ex-l wrote:truthfully, is finding hard evidence (either pro or con), so frightening that you have to attempt such as easy device to cut my voice out and ignore the possibility concrete evidence? Can you not even see the benefit of it for the sakes of service?
Dear ex-l,

Most PBKs are thirsty to know what exactly happened from A - Z of the beginning of the Confluence Age. We want the truth and if we have access to the truth, then it will revealed to anyone who is interested as what had happened. We will never deny to anybody who is seeking truth. It is just that we don't have anyone who have lived during that era to tell the history of the beginning of the Yagya. Even if we have, what is the proof of their statements. We PBKs are waiting for the day where everything will be revealed. So in the meantime, we just cling to the appointed Chariot (Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) and try our level best to inform the world that he is the personified form of Godfather Shiv.

I hope you understand that it is not that we are having the evidence of sevakram and denying you the truth.
shivsena wrote:It is your perception that i enjoy criticizing PBKs whom i see as my Brothers.
Shivsena,

If PBKs really are your brothers, then don't condemn them for reading advance knowledge as there is no harm in reading advance knowledge. As long as they have the awareness that Krishna's soul is interferring as he has intervened in Sakar Murlis too. Most PBKs are aware that advance knowledge and Sakar Murlis are not the true Gita and when the true Gita is spoken wholly by ShivBaba only, then only paradise is prevalent as it is mentioned in Murli "that the birth of Shiva means the birth of heaven."
I am just trying to awake my PBK Brothers, as much as the PBKs are trying to awake the BK Brothers by giving them explanations of Advanced Knowledge. If you feel that i am doing something wrong, then the BKs would also feel likewise for PBKs. (but that would not deter you from giving them Advanced Knowledge, so i feel likewise). And the BKs in turn would feel the same towards the souls of the outside world. That is the beauty of this Godly knowledge: each soul on different platform (as shown in pyramid) will view The Knowledge differently and would feel that he is doing the right service.
That will be the onus of every pbk to awaken the souls of the world and the methodology should be an act of genuine humility.

Om Shanti -- indie

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Re: PBK Shivsena's beliefs

Post by fluffy bunny » 17 Aug 2008

pbkindiana wrote:Even if we have, what is the proof of their statements? I hope you understand that it is not that we are having the evidence of sevakram and denying you the truth.
indiana,

You exclude reference to concrete references such as birth and death or business records. (The business being critical). I remember Virendra Dev Dixit being asked a out this and giving the green light for individuals via the internet to do more research.

I have never accused PBKs of denying us the truth. Well ... I know that we do not get the more controversial elements of the VCDs and only one of you has made any making efforts to publish the original Murlis the AIVV has ... but that is to be expected. But you do have people in India who can go look, ask and make public their findings.

The "proof of their statements" you have already. It will only be after you have them that the "proofs", by which you mean Murlis quotes, become obvious surely.

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Re: PBK Shivsena's beliefs

Post by arjun » 17 Aug 2008

ex-l wrote:I have never accused PBKs of denying us the truth. Well ... I know that we do not get the more controversial elements of the VCD*
Almost 99% of the Clarification Murlis spoken by ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) that are being reproduced here in the PBK Section under the topic 'extracts of PBK Murlis' are (100%) complete versions. Even in the remaining 1%, just one or two lines have been replaced by dotted line where the original Hindi text is not clear or it could be a sentence which may lead to avoidable tensions. And even such 1% VCDs may be available on the PBKs' official website in audio/visual form. So, virtually nothing is being hidden as far as Clarification Murlis are concerned.

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Re: PBK Shivsena's beliefs

Post by shivsena » 17 Aug 2008

arjun wrote:According to the PBK version of the Yagya history, it is believed that Shiv entered first in Sevakram to narrate the secrets of the visions caused to Dada Lekhraj at Calcutta after he failed to get the answers from his lokik gurus and from Hindu pandits at Varanasi (its proof is available in the Revised Sakar Murli dated 23/24.08.08 to be released by BKs on Janmashtami). Shiv narrated the secrets to his wife (generally referred as Gita mata by PBKs, but it may not be the actual name). During this process another lady (referred to as Radha bachchi by PBKs, but this again may not be the actual name) also heard this narration. Sevakram's wife then narrated the secrets of the visions to Dada Lekhraj. Later on this spiritual family shifted to Sindh, Pakistan where the foundation of Om Mandali was laid.
Dear arjun Bhai, indiana, and pbk brothers.

First the PBKs had to prove only the rebirth of sevakram as Virendra Dev Dixit, now they have to prove that sevakram's wife (supposedly Gita mata) also has taken birth as kamla devi dixit (as the future jagatmata) and the other mata (Radha) who heard the clarification from sevakram's mouth has taken birth as sister Vedanti in bk family and will be the future third murti to complete the triad of Trimurti God Shiva in practical.

PBKs have now a Himalayan task of proving three rebirths, with all details of when the three murtis of Shiva left their bodies in the beginning, and when and how they have taken rebirth and again come in the Yagya to become the final Trimurti through which Shiva is going to be revealed to the world.

First I used to think that there are a lot of ambiguities in advance knowledge, now I think that the whole advance knowledge is a collection of stories and bunch of contradictions, that are cleverly invented by Maya brahma (during the period brahma ki raat) to separate the PBKs into 2 groups, as to who is reading and churning the Murlis/Vanis (108) and who is just accepting the advance knowledge without thinking logically. (16000)

shivsena.

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Re: PBK Shivsena's beliefs

Post by pbkindiana » 19 Aug 2008

Shivsena wrote:First the PBKs had to prove only the rebirth of sevakram as Veerendra Dev Dixit, now they have to prove that sevakram's wife (supposedly Gita mata) also has taken birth as kamla devi dixit (as the future jagatmata) and the other mata (Radha) who heard the clarification from sevakram's mouth has taken birth as Sister Vedanti in BK family and will be the future third murti to complete the triad of Trimurti God Shiva in practical.

PBKs have now a Himalayan task of proving three rebirths, with all details of when the three murtis of Shiva left their bodies in the beginning, and when and how they have taken rebirth and again come in the Yagya to become the final Trimurti through which Shiva is going to be revealed to the world.
Dear Shivsena Bhai,

Don't forget that you are also involved in the quest of truth even though you claim that you are a pbk on paper only. Moreover you are residing in India which allows you to carry out an extensive research about these three murthis of God Shiva and produce some interesting findings about them.

Om Shanti -- indie.

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Re: PBK Shivsena's beliefs

Post by shivsena » 19 Aug 2008

pbkindiana wrote:Don't forget that you are also involved in the quest of truth even though you claim that you are a PBK on paper only. Moreover you are residing in India which allows you to carry out an extensive research about these three murthis of God Shiva and produce some interesting findings about them.
Dear indiana.

It is true that I am involved in the quest of truth, but only through the study of Murlis and Vanis and not by investigating the past lives of someone who does not exist. When I already know that the whole advance knowledge is Krishna ki jhooti Gita, then where is the question of my doing extensive research to prove that advance knowledge in not the truth? This job is primarily for those PBKs who feel that advance knowledge is word of ShivBaba.

If ShivBaba wanted to reveal the past, he would have done so in Murlis or in logical clarifications of advance knowledge, but there is no such basis anywhere. So my sincere request to all PBKs is not to waste time on past ghost stories but to study the Murlis and Vanis, as the whole truth is just hiding within them waiting to be decoded. (Vani says, "paper has been out and now we shall see how many pass and how many fail".)

shivsena.

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Re: PBK Shivsena's beliefs

Post by fluffy bunny » 19 Aug 2008

Well ... if we accept that position of faith, will you at least cooperate in providing in public a copy of all those Murlis that you suggest individuals study?

Typed out in text so we can input them into the Encyclopedia or some other searchable database? May be just one a day or so?

Of course, I don't accept your limitation of faith. I am sure that real world is going to throw up some very useful evidence and it would be a great charity to demonstrate that in practical terms.

I don't know Shivsena ... at times you appear so aloof. You have your nigh complete collection of Murlis and your future status assured ... but yet you are not will to sharing it with others. How long has it been? Two years or more or pulling the wings off Arjun and other the PBKs ... and you have not delivered one single life saving Murli for us to read.

You ask too much of others to follow you blindly.

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Re: PBK Shivsena's beliefs

Post by pbkindiana » 21 Aug 2008

ex-l wrote:You have your nigh complete collection of Murlis and your future status assured
Dear ex-l,

Shivsena doesn't need to worry of his future status as he is the deputy of ShivBaba.

Om Shanti -- inide.

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Re: PBK Shivsena's beliefs

Post by pbkindiana » 21 Aug 2008

shivsena wrote:If ShivBaba wanted to reveal the past, he would have done so in Murlis or in logical clarifications of Advanced Knowledge, but there is no such basis anywhere.
Dear shivsena Bhai,

If everything is revealed openly, then where is the necessity of examination? ShivBaba delivers cryptic Murlis so that our intellect can be occupied with churning of knowledge and not be passive or senseless. Also if everything is revealed in the Sakar Murlis, then ShivBaba's sayings that "if everything is revealed now, then what will He reveals in future," will be false. Even in the Amrit Vela, it is stated that, "there is new knowledge for the new world." So the Sakar Murlis are not the ultimate sermons of ShivBaba. Moreover no knowledge can be termed as "ShivBaba's Sermons" when there is an interruption of Brahma alias Krishna's soul.
So my sincere request to all PBKs is not to waste time on past ghost stories but to study the Murlis and Vanis, as the whole truth is just hiding within them waiting to be decoded. (Vani says, "paper has been out and now we shall see how many pass and how many fail".)
It is so bizarre that you have remembrance with a dead personality but you discourage PBKs not to waste time on ghost stories spoken by the same dead person that you are having Yaad. It is just like asking guidance from the late Indira Gandhi rather than the present Manmohan Singh.

Om Shanti -- indie

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