Ex-PBK Shivsena's beliefs

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Post by button slammer » 02 Nov 2007

shivsena wrote:In Murlis, it is said that the whole knowledge can be understood in only two words "Alaf and Be" and it is also said in Murlis that if you have not understood ALAF, then you will not understand anything. So I feel that none of the BKs or PBKs or any soul of Vishnu Party has ever defined who ALAF is nor given any thought about who is BE, and therefore it is would better that we first concentrate on who is ALAf, rather than waste time on useless queries.
For the ancestor souls, 'Be' does not exist.

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Post by arjun » 02 Nov 2007

Shivsena wrote:I feel that the senior BKs and PBKs have done enough of Bhakti and have not been progressing spiritually nor understanding the secrets of Godly knowledge given in the Murlis; the BKs have been listening like a parrot to the senior Sisters and Dadis and the PBKs have been listening to cds and vcds without understanding anything and just nodding their heads to whatever is said therein.
OK more later.
Shivsena wrote:You have pointed a finger at the BK family about the various programmes and playing of songs (like in Bhakti-marg); but you have forgotten that the same thing is repeated in the PBK family also in every morning class and even when Baba is face to face. The PBKs are in the same boat of Bhakti like the BKs, maybe at a more subtle level. So Shrimat is not being followed in BK centers nor the PBK centers.
Arjun wrote:Om Shanti. Yes, shooting of Bhakti is going on to some extent among the PBKs also but the above statements are not completely true.

I don't know about the Gitapathshalas, but at the mini-Madhubans, songs are either not played during meditation or played sparsely, like a song or instumental music for a few minutes after a silence for 10-15 minutes. This is done when ShivBaba is not practically present in the class. But when ShivBaba is practically present (through Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit) in the class (whether mini-Madhubans or any gitapathshala), no song is played during the meditation even if continues for 2 hours. I don't know if there is any exception here and there.

As regards the Murli VCDs that are available, every VCD contains a few minutes of the recording of drishti/meditation at the place where that VCD was recorded. This includes few minutes of drishti being given by Baba and few minutes of the the video recording of the audience in which efforts are made to cover every person sitting in the audience. When this recording of drishti/glimpses of audience is being shown on the VCD generally a BK song/filmi song/light instrumental is played (in the VCD and not actually in the class as clarified in the above paragraph).

I remember that in one of the recent Discussions one of the PBKs pointed out to Baba about the song that is played at the beginning of every VCD while showing the recording of drishti and audience, and asked whether it is shooting of Bhakti or not. Baba replied that yes, it was Bhakti. This is being done by the PBKs who prepare the VCDs. It may be possible that even this single song is not played in future. But there may be many PBKs who would like to have at least one song/music being played in the background in the VCDs.
Om Shanti. If PBKs were simply nodding their heads to whatever ShivBaba says through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit, then one of them would not have asked Baba about the shooting of Bhakti within PBKs in the form of the solitary song/instrumental music played in every VCD while showing the recording of Baba's drishti and audience.

If it was the soul of Krishna (Lekhraj Kirpalani) who is giving knowledge through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit and if the soul of Lekhraj Kirpalani is responsible for the subtle Bhakti among PBKs, then he would not have accepted that subtle Bhakti was going on among PBKs.

If it was not the Supreme Soul Shiv giving knowledge through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit, then he would not have revealed openly the fact that a few surrendered PBK sisters had gone back to their homes.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Secrets of Alaf & Bindi ShivBap

Post by new knowledge » 02 Nov 2007

shivsena wrote:as both Ram and Krishna are in the same body of Virendra Dev Dixit now(unlike in the beginning)---so in the end---'Alaf' again will be Ram's soul in 100% incorporeal stage when he will become combined with ShivBap and they(Shiv+Ram) both will then be seen as living ShivBaba---
and it is also said in Murlis that if you have not understood ALAF, than you will not understand anything.
Thus you say that to understand anything, we should have to understand Alaf, i.e, Rambap. And to understand Rambap, it's necessary to know how he becomes Alaf by combining with Bindi ShivBap. is not it? In other words, to understand Alaf, we should have to know Bindi ShivBap. So the puzzle of ShivBap should be solved.

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Post by arjun » 02 Nov 2007

Shivsena wrote:Is there is any soul (in the BK or PBK family) who attains 100% incorporeal stage, like Shiva (nirakari stage i.e. totally devoid of body consciousness) after coming in this Godly knowledge. If the answer is YES, then which is that soul ??
In Murlis, it is said that the whole knowledge can be understood in only two words "Alaf and Be" and it is also said in Murlis that if you have not understood ALAF, then you will not understand anything. So I feel that none of the BKs or PBKs or any soul of Vishnu Party has ever defined who ALAF is nor given any thought about who is BE
Answers to both the above querries: The soul of Confluence-Aged Ram (believed to be the soul of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit according to me and many PBKs).

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Is 100% incorporeal stage of the Father essential to deliver

Post by new knowledge » 03 Nov 2007

shivsena wrote:So, can we not come to a logical conclusion (as per the study of the Murlis) that the study of RajYoga has still not started by ShivBaba and will start only in the near future when Rambap attains 100% incorporeal stage like ShivBap and becomes living Ramshivbaba
After attainment of 100% incorporeal stage of Ramshivbaba, study of RajYoga wilk be end, so the question of 'getting started the study of RajYoga will not arise at all. Though we have no any Karmic account with Bindi ShivBap, we have Karmic accounts with Ramshivbaba. Ramshivbaba plays his role through the whole cycle of Kalpa & do Karma, so he have Karmic accounts with other souls & elements of nature. So also he have to practice self-realisation (in the Confluence Age) to achieve incorporeal stage.

After attainment of completion, i.e, 100% incorporeal stage, all his Karmic accounts will be settled, so he will not need to serve any soul or purify elements of nature by teaching RajYoga & by delivering Shrimat. Then why you argue that for the study of RajYoga, 100% incorporeal stage of Ramshivbaba is an essential criterian??

Avyakt (subtle) stage is the middle stage - a stage between corporeal stage & incorporeal stage. Is not Avyakt stage sufficient for Ramshivbaba to start the study of RajYoga?

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Post by new knowledge » 03 Nov 2007

Brother shivsena, do you mean that Rambap will achieve 100% incorporeal stage in 2009-10 & since then Purushottam Sangamyug (Auspicious Confluence Age) will start & only since then study of RajYoga will start.

Now 100% incorporeal stage of Rambap means the highest peak of his Chadti Kalaa (ascending degree). And as Rambap is supposed to achieve 100% incorporeal stage in 2009-10, then the question of his Chadti Kalaa does not arise at all during that part of the Confluence Age after 2009-10. And we will not accept that he will have Girti Kalaa (descending degree) during that period of the Confluence Age after 2009-10.

Now my dillema is that if after 2009-10, Rambap will neither have Chadti Kalaa nor Girti Kalaa, then will he have constant Kalaas - that is, neither ascending nor ascending?
BUT AT EVERY POINT OF TIME DURING THE WHOLE CYCLE OF TIME, THERE WILL BE EITHER CHADTI KALAA OR GIRTI KALAA OF ANY SOUL INCLUDING THAT OF Rambap. Thus only at the last point of time of the Kalpa, Rambap could achieve 100% incorporeal stage. So, your conclusion that Rambap will achieve 100% incorporeal stage in 2009-10, as the Kalpa will not end in 2009-10.

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Post by button slammer » 03 Nov 2007

new knowledge wrote:Now my dillema is that if after 2009-10, Rambap will neither have Chadti Kalaa nor Girti Kalaa, then will he have constant Kalaas - that is, neither ascending nor ascending? BUT AT EVERY POINT OF TIME DURING THE WHOLE CYCLE OF TIME, THERE WILL BE EITHER CHADTI KALAA OR GIRTI KALAA OF ANY SOUL INCLUDING THAT OF Rambap. Thus only at the last point of time of the Kalpa, Rambap could achieve 100% incorporeal stage. So, your conclusion that Rambap will achieve 100% incorporeal stage in 2009-10, as the Kalpa will not end in 2009-10.
Baba has mentioned in Sakar Murlis that true effort makers become ready/complete ahead of time. :)

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Post by andrey » 03 Nov 2007

Dear brother shivsena,

In the Murli it is said that, on knowing Alaf we come to know everything. So for those who know Alaf they know everything. There is nothing more to learn, nothing more that they need. It is different for those who don’t know Alaf. For them it is never said in any Murli that they won’t understand anything. No. You just twist it little bit.

In my opinion, those who don’t know Alaf will need many other things. They will be always of some need to know this and that and won’t be content till one does not come to know one thing. It is like in any study. Can you calculate without knowing the digits? So first we have to know simple things. In the Murli it is never said that, it is difficult to know Alaf. No. It is said that it is very easy. And it should be. Why should it be difficult to know one thing?It is rather difficult to know many.

So for those who know Alaf everything is finished, they come to know everything through this one Alaf. It is different that it is said that we first have to explain about Alaf, give the Fathers introduction and if one does not understand we should leave because it is an easy path, but we don’t give his introduction just like that.

In one VCD, Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit says that children have invented a very easy way to reveal the Father. They print the picture and that's it. So nothing is achieved with it neither with giving a message through words. For those who do not understand through words they look at our behavior. We have to reveal the Father with our stage. It is said like this in the Avyakt Vanis.

Our stage is tested in adverse situations. These are plenty to come. So Father will be revealed according to the time.

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Post by new knowledge » 03 Nov 2007

button slammer wrote:... true effort makers become ready/complete ahead of time.
My brother button slammer, to become ready/complete is a different fact & to achieve 100% incorporeal stage is the different fact. We could continue our role in the World Drama even after we achieve complete stage; but after achievement of 100% incorporeal stage, our role in this World Drama will not continue. Possibly, respected Baba Virendra Dev Dixit would wish to say that 'to be complete' means 'to achieve Avyakt, i.e, subtle stage' (a middle stage between corporeal & incorporeal stage), which do not mean '100% incorporeal stage'. In other words, 'complete stage' means 'to be free from the bondages of negative Karmic accounts (& to be free from the mortal world) & '100% incorporeal stage' means 'to be completely free from all Karmic accounts - negative as well as positive.

You are right that true effort makers become ready/complete ahead of time.
And the soul of Rambap will become ready/complete, i.e. Avyakt (i.e. he settles his negative Karmic accounts & becomes free from bondages of mortal world) before any other soul; but he achieves 100% incorporeal stage (i.e. he settles all his Karmic accounts - negative as well as positive) in the last, i.e. at the last point of the Kalpa.

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Post by button slammer » 04 Nov 2007

button slammer wrote:... true effort makers become ready/complete ahead of time.
new knowledge wrote:You are right that true effort makers become ready/complete ahead of time.[/color] And the soul of Rambap will become ready/complete, i.e. Avyakt (i.e. he settles his negative Karmic accounts & becomes free from bondages of mortal world) before any other soul; but he achieves 100% incorporeal stage (i.e. he settles all his Karmic accounts - negative as well as positive) in the last, i.e. at the last point of the Kalpa.
Thank you for your post and comments, I have to entirely disagree with your views however. I cannot help but think of the point that Baba has mentioned that ShivBaba will never reveal Himself but is revealed by children, which children? Those children who are in an incorporeal stage themselves.

The Father makes the children equal to Himself. It is the stage of supersensuous bliss/joy. I don't subscribe to the idea that the incorporeal stage is just a meaningless blip on the radar of drama experienced by one soul at some infinitesimal point in the Kalpa.

Baba has said that the incorporeal stage will make the soul fearless, what is there to fear at the end of the Kalpa?

I say that the incorporeal stage is a part of drama, and is our direct inheritance from a direct relationship with the incorporeal Father in this birth/life itself. :)

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Re: Secrets of Alaf & Bindi ShivBap

Post by shivsena » 04 Nov 2007

new knowledge wrote:Thus you say that to understand anything, we should have to understand Alaf, i.e, Rambap. And to understand Rambap, it's necessary to know how he becomes Alaf by combining with Bindi ShivBap. is not it? In other words, to understand Alaf, we should have to know Bindi ShivBap. So the puzzle of ShivBap should be solved.
Dear brother.

I am not going to teach you how 2+2 = 4. (Each soul has to find out himself, as to who is Alaf and get his inheritance from HIM.)

It's a pity to note that, even though you know who Alaf is, you seem to have defected to some Vishnu Party in search of some higher God. I only hope that you find your God in the Vishnu Party, as i have found my God in Ramshivbaba (Alaf).

shivsena.

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Absolute Zero & Relative Zero

Post by new knowledge » 04 Nov 2007

new knowledge wrote:Thus you say that to understand anything, we should have to understand Alaf, i.e, Rambap. And to understand Rambap, it's necessary to know how he becomes Alaf by combining with Bindi ShivBap. is not it? In other words, to understand Alaf, we should have to know Bindi ShivBap. So the puzzle of ShivBap should be solved.
shivsena wrote:I am not going to teach you how 2+2 = 4.
Brother shivsena, unless I understand '0' (zero), how could I learn '2 + 2 = 4'? In mathematics, there are two types of zeros,
  • 1) 'Zero' on absolute scale of measurement &
    2) 'Zero' on relative scale of measurement.
Temperature is measured in 'degrees Kelvin' (absolute scale of measurement of temperature) as well as 'degrees Celsius' (relative scale of measurement of temperature). And we also speak of '0 degree Celsius' temperature (an example of 'zero' on relative scale) & '0 degree Kelvin' temperature (also refered as 'absolute 0 temperature'). The atmospheric temperature practically could be '0 degree Celsius' temperature, under certain conditions; but all scientists argue that the atmospheric temperature could never achieve the value exactly equal to '0 degree Kilvin'.

We could reach very very close to '0 degree Kelvin' temperature' but we could not practically achieve exactly '0 degree Kelvin' temperature' (absolute 0 temperature). Thus the term '0 degree Kelvin temperature' is an imaginary concept coined by the scientists just to simplify the formulae in physics & chemistry. Thus '0 degree Kelvin' is 'imaginary zero', i.e, 'without temperature condition' (as there will be no any presency of the property/attribute of temperature in the atmosphere at absolute 0 temperature) & it is just the intellectual creation of scientists; but '0 degree Celsius' is an example of 'real zero' which is not 'without temperature condition' (as even at 0 degree Celsius, the existance of temperature in the atmosphere remains).

According to you both
Bindi ShivBap & incorporeal RamShivBaba are zero. But zero quality of ShivBap differs from that of RamShivBaba. ShivBap is (as believed by you) is neither Ocean of knowledge, peace, bliss, happiness nor he possesses celestial degrees. Thus the zero quality of ShivBap is analoguos with that of '0 degree Kelvin temperature', i.e, 'absolute zero temperature'; in other words, he is like 'zero on absolute scale' which is just an imaginary concept & your intellectual creation.

Just as 'absolute 0 temperature' does not exist practically, the existance of Bindi ShivBap (who is absolute/imaginary zero) could not be accepted. And just as '0 degree temperature is 'without temperature condition', zero quality of ShivBap is 'without celestial degrees condition'.
It's the logic that each & every living or non-living object in existance has some attributes/qualities & we could define that object in accordance with that attributes/qualities. But Bindi ShivBap does not possesses any attribute/quality, then how could his existance should be accepted?

What is your logic behind such a concept like 'Bindi ShivBap'? You believe that Murlis include every secret of Godly knowledge, then quote some Murli points to prove the existance of Bindi ShivBap who is not Ocean of anything.

But RamShivBaba is the Ocean of knowledge, peace, bliss, happiness & he possesses unlimited celestial degrees. Thus the zero quality of RamShivBaba is analoguous with that of '0 degree Celsius' temperature; in other words, he is like 'zero on relative scale'. Just as '0 degree Celsius temperature' practically exists, existance of RamShivBaba (who becomes real zero after achievement of 100% incorporeal stage) is acceptable. And just as '0 degree Celsius temperature' is not 'without temperature condition', zero quality of RamShivBaba is also not 'without celestial condition', as he possesses unlimited celestial degrees.

Now with respect to which virtues & qualities does
real Rambap becomes equal to imaginary ShivBap to achieve the title of RamShivBaba?? Rambap never becomes Bindi & ShivBap never becomes incorporeal, one of them is Ocean of Knowledge, peace, bliss, happiness & the other is not the Ocean of anything, one of them is real & the other is imaginary; then how & with respect to what both of them could combine & become equal ...?

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Re: The use of music during BK meditation

Post by shivsena » 04 Nov 2007

shivsena wrote:If you can smell pride, then why ask me for my suggestion in the first place.
bkdimok wrote:I saw your pride after your suggestion. However it is your problem. All I can wish to you is to come back from your virtual reality to this reality. Do you really think that God gave knowledge and it was understood wrong. And only after 70 years it was you who understood it right? However it is your problem.
Dear brother bkdimok.

Everything in this world is a matter of perception; you percieve it as pride and i percieve it as "confidence in my study of Murlis which is giving me answers, that BKs and PBKs are not able to provide"; and i also percieve it as my duty to share my views with my brothers irrespective of what anyone thinks.

Just a small example of how the same thing can be percieved differently by different group of souls, which in turn decides the destiny of their 84 births. Many times it is said in Murlis : "ShivBaba is nirakar"; "Bhagwan is nirakar"; now let us see how this simple mahavakya of Murli is interpreted by different group of souls.

The BKs interpret the statement as 'bindishiv' is 'bhagwan-ShivBaba' in the body of Lekhraj Kirpalani (Krishna' soul); it is understandable that the senior sisters and Dadis who were present during the lifetime of Lekhraj Kirpalani believed this to be true but the souls who came after 1969 also continue to believe the same thing; i do not see any logic in this; (as per drama i also believed in the same, till i was introduced to advance knowledge) These souls, who can never think beyond 'bindishiv in Lekhraj Kirpalani' would be categorised as praja of 900,000 souls.

The PBKs interpret the statement as 'bindishiv' is 'bhagwan-ShivBaba' through Virendra Dev Dixit(Ram's soul) ; this was also quite understandable, as i always used to think as a bk, that everyone must have a chance to meet Godshivbaba in person and the fact that shiv did not meet everyone and left in 1969 always haunted me and i immediately took advance knowledge as the final truth; but it was only after 1998 after Virendra Dev Dixit was jailed and the Advance Party split up into Vishnu-party, that i realised that the absolute truth has not yet dawned on the BKs nor the PBKs and so thinking that all the answers will be found in the Murlis only. I started my research on Murlis and after 7 years of intense research i can say with confidence that i am very nearer to the truth than ever before (in the form of Ramshivbaba); those who cannot rise above seeing shivbindi in Virendra Dev Dixit, would form a small group of 16,000 souls which would include the royal family (prince-princesses, relatives, friends and das-dasi of the royal family).

Then comes the last group of 108 rudramala souls, who are would be kings of many births in the broad drama and they would have to think differently from the bk praja and the pbk royal praja, to be rightfully called as kings (world controllers); all 108 souls would be titled as Gyani-souls and it is only through their intense study of Murlis, their belief would be different from 16,000; they would see the nirakari stage (100% incorporeal stage) of Ram's soul as ShivBaba (Bhagwan) and when Ram attains this stage (Ram=shiv) then the present body of Virendra Dev Dixit, then belongs to Krishna who becomes prajapita; and this combination of a-shariri Rambap and sharir-dhari prajapita then becomes ShivBaba (conbination of nirakar+ Sakar). Only after Ram's soul achieves the 100% nirakari stage then the true Gita-Gyan would emerge from the present Chariot.

This is in a nutshell what i want to say and how the different group of souls will percieve and interpret the same Murli mahavakya differently (which in turn would decide their own destiny).

shivsena.

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Re: The use of music during BK meditation

Post by bkdimok » 04 Nov 2007

shivsena wrote:Everything in this world is a matter of perception; you percieve it as pride and I percieve it as "confidence in my study of Murlis which is giving me answers, that BKs and PBKs are not able to provide"; and I also percieve it as my duty to share my views with my Brothers irrespective of what anyone thinks.
Om Shanti. I understand your motivation. It is pretty pure. But nevertheless there is some pride behind it. My wish to you; leave this pride and do pure service. Service for God. Service to make Him pleased (nevetheless He is everpleased).

With best wishes, Shankar

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Re: The use of music during BK meditation

Post by john » 04 Nov 2007

shivsena wrote:they would see the nirakari stage (100% incorporeal stage) of Ram's soul as ShivBaba (Bhagwan) and when Ram attains this stage (Ram=Shiv) then the present body of Veerendra Dev Dixit, then belongs to Krishna who becomes Prajapita; and this combination of a-shariri Rambap and sharir-dhari Prajapita then becomes ShivBaba (conbination of nirakar+ Sakar). Only after Ram's soul achieves the 100% nirakari stage then the true Gita-Gyan would emerge from the present Chariot.
Can you clarify whether you believe there is a third soul called Shiva amongst these lot, or do you just mean Ram (Virendra Dev Dixit) becomes Shiva and there are just 2 souls involved Ram and Krishna?

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