A common link amongst the women

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abrahma kumar
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Now, thats what I call sharing

Post by abrahma kumar » 25 Jun 2007

Thanks heshe.

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Post by alladin » 26 Jun 2007

Hi heshe, thanks for your contribution to this thread!

I grew up, as many people did including some of us on the Forum, during a post '68 time when open talks about sex were a must for our education, and sexual liberation was a milestone. No wonder, since I landed in the BK territory, I always wondered what was wrong with them, their puritanism and taboo.

I liked the idea of platonic love, probably because as a feminist I found it really difficult to compromise in order to have decent relationship with men, or having opportunistic relatationships, or blame in on my dysfunctional family, differences in sanskars, Kaliyug, whatever. I thought that the experience of soul conscious vision, being "brother and sister", would cure many evils and put a stop to arguments, jelousy, dependence, addiction, possessivness, traditional roles, misunderstandings ... I think now that this vision of things is very limited and has a lot to do with denial, I'd call it "ostrich consciousness", and shows a lack of power to face our own weaknesses, lack of courage to give it a try, and immaturity.

So, the way chastity was presented by BKWSU, as you say, without any deep explanation, and related more to suppression, never convinced me, nor appealed to me, but I endured and even enjoyed it for a good number of years, falling in love platonically, occasionally. I think that later brothereaking that rule was mostly due to karmic accounts and not so much to enormous attraction towards a particular body, or a physical need for sex. I know that some, if not many, ex-BKs, still hold on to that principle : it's their right to do so and enjoy purity, which is a far better word than abstinence.

I hope, however, that such a lack of flexibility in that aspect, doesn't hide some paranoias, again as I said earlier, denial of the incapacity to have shanti relationships if the physical aspect is included, or denial of any failures or traumatic experiences one may have had in the past, that could be the reason for avoiding the other gender.

Understanding love in all its aspects, makes an interesting, and essential topic, since that energy is part of every living being. And as you said, those mysterious meeting Atam Prakash or Nirwairbhai were arranging for brother others, were a bit of a farce, which is not uncommon in the BK system. Well, I never heard of similar meetings for sisters. For sure, such a conservative organisation thinks that women don't have such strong sexual drives as men, at the most some maternal instincts, but that desire to "care for and nurturing", can be channelled and transferred onto teaching or making Bhog for Baba and the students. So, what did we all do?

Maybe share some secret with some sister we trusted about some fancy we had for such and such brother!! That's all. Solution: avoid thinking ab that person or those topics, try your best to have more Yoga and service, fill the mind with Gyan. Repress for a while and wait until next wave comes. Hopefully you will not be swept away completely. Now, the very fact that a huge amount of guilt and fear is instilled in BKs about "breaking Shrimat",- make your own list of colorful expressions such as falling from the 5th floor and breaking your bones and so on ... - puts BKs in a position where any understanding, growth, experiment or negotiation is forbidden.

So, how many, even after leaving the organisation have had physical relationships without guilt tinted nightmares? And how can a relationship work if consciously or subconsciously we think that we are sinning, and not only we are not entitled to get any blessings from God in that development, but we will get scorn and curses from gurus, other BKs, etc ...?

As in other fields of life, I love challenges and adventure, applying my self to a relationship that is not a consumistic product of "Babylon" and typically Kaliyugi, at the same time feeling if not open approval from the Great Spirit, at least his benevolence, neither a downfall from "angelness", is interesting. And we are on the planet to love, not to be detached. A pinch of detachment can do a lot of good. The reverse proportion, a lot of harm. To the self, and others, and does not spread good vibes in the Universe either.

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Post by heshe » 26 Jun 2007

Yes, taking risks has always been important to me. Without risks we risk being a slave to blandness and conformity. I would rather be happy and content in having fullfilled desires instead of becoming sad and misreable about what could have been. I now value purity more than ever, though its not as simple as celibacy, and is much broader and deeper than that.

But i will not kill my conscience on the back of some delluded human creation about the collective benefit of shared denial when it comes to interpretation of the Murli. I have never been happier and more contented now than ever because its much healthier to get things out of your system than brewing like a stale bottle of beer ready to pop :lol:. I think I am no longer making sense?

Best wishes to you all and God bless you.

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Post by joel » 26 Jun 2007

alladin wrote:I grew up, as many people did including some of us on the Forum, during a post '68 time when open talks about sex were a must for our education, and sexual liberation was a milestone. No wonder, since I landed in the BK territory, I always wondered what was wrong with them, their puritanism and taboo. [...]

So, the way chastity was presented by BKWSU, as you say, without any deep explanation, and related more to suppression, never convinced me, nor appealed to me, but I endured and even enjoyed it for a good number of years, falling in love platonically, occasionally. [...]

So, how many, even after leaving the organisation have had physical relationships without guilt tinted nightmares? And how can a relationship work if consciously or subconsciously we think that we are sinning, and not only we are not entitled to get any blessings from God in that development, but we will get scorn and curses from gurus, other BKs, etc ...?
Great to hear your story! I like it all, will respond to this last question.

I think many can and do have relationships without nightmarish guilt. Many of them are the ones who get on in their lives. Probably few of them would search for a forum such as this.

BKs tout the nourishing healing effects of God's love. Whatever the truth of that, the love of a healthy, dynamic human relationship is a stimulant and a balm having value self-evident to the participants. The feeling that "this feels so right to me" nourishes a strength and inner trust that is not threatened by the dark forebodings of guilt. That has never even heard of them.

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Post by zhuk » 27 Jun 2007

joel wrote:BKs tout the nourishing healing effects of God's love. Whatever the truth of that, the love of a healthy, dynamic human relationship is a stimulant and a balm having value self-evident to the participants. The feeling that "this feels so right to me" nourishes a strength and inner trust that is not threatened by the dark forebodings of guilt. That has never even heard of them.
(my italics) I think you've touched on something here, joel.

I think that any cult which has a strong imposed system of behaviour & thought (traffic) -control must discourage close intimate human relationships in order to keep sufficient control over its devotees. Get too close to another person and the organisation becomes less and less influential in the lives of those people.

Therefore, how incredibly necessary it is to proscribe & prohibit close human contact, especially sexual ... which leads to the closest bond of all between 2 people. Something that is outside the cult & unable to be controlled by it ...

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manupulation

Post by alladin » 27 Jun 2007

Yes, close bonds may lead to conspiracy and deep open communication can lead to dangerous insights and realizations.

When I first read similar posts on the Forum, a few months ago, that was an incredible eye opener to me. A new angle to look at things from. I started to suspect that this vicious organization was a lot about controlling people's minds and life in many ways deliberately, and not due to some center-in-charge or SS being a control freak.

On this, more discussion developed related to spooks and how they may want our "pure" energy to supposedely help in creating a new, better world. ( just read a recent post in the " what was that?" topic in the ex forum, by 2 light) .
But purity, virgin martyrdom for sacrifice to the gods, virgins being forced to having sex with religious leaders and monks, or involved in black magic rituals, is something as old as recorded history. So, since nothing seems to be casual, but definitely coated with gold and good intentions - although not explained in detail - I enjoy putting together the pieces of the puzzle, trying to make some sense out of those strict anachronistic sounding disciplines with the help of all the info and opinions expressed by Forum members. Are we getting there?? :wink:

Within the BK world, any one who wants to investigate more about the significance of "purity" is automatically labelled as a lustful person who wants to "have poison". So, once we shake those labels off us, we are free to do our research and we may end up finding out that the worst lethal poison is manipulation and brain washing, disguised in many ways but omnipresent in the BKWSU.

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Do not touch pussycats, impure company & avoid affection

Post by alladin » 27 Jun 2007

The sad story Heshe reported about a brother who did not even pet a pussycat in 10yrs, reminded me of a sister in London who once had a pet parrot and was told by the SS that keeping any animal was against Shrimat.

So, with a broken heart she had to give it away to comply with the rules. Does anybody remember the story? Was the sister in question Rajanabhen, who later committed suicide jumping off a building?

In that case, I'd rather start up an animal shelter activity or become a dog sitter, more healing and safe than renouncing our pets!!!

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Post by di » 27 Jun 2007

In my situation the guilt of having a relationship, mainly a sexual one, and having made that life long commitment is what started the demise of our marriage.

He states we there was nothing wrong with our relationship, but he could not be in a relationship of any sort. He could no longer be around me because his feelings - both emotional and physically - he could not control. As I said before, he stated I was his whole world and the perfect person and wife to him.

I remember him saying during the act, everything was wonderful and felt 'right' but afterwards he was racked by such guilt and fear of what he had done he said he just did not want to do this anymore.

We had not been living together 8 months before I had noticed subtle changes in his attentions. At times, the body had obviously been willing, but he would not respond saying "oh, that's just the body, doesn't mean I am really interested". Without knowing what I do now, I did not take much notice. I just thought it strange but probably just a 'man' thing. Now I know what it was all about.

It was at this time that he returned to meditation and here I am and there he is ... apart. Both of us in pain ... all because of guilt and fear. When I see him now, he has lost weight, looks stressed and hurting. There are occasional explosions of personality, i.e. verbal attacks on me, showing he is in increasing pain. So much for meditation filling the 'void' he felt inside.

He said to me, if it was any consolation, I would be the last woman that he would ever be with ... I couldn't return the sentiment and said nothing. How is that supposed to make me feel better? My thoughts say if you have made a commitment to someone, that person hasn't done the wrong thing, you are getting on well, and you renounce your relationship and that commitment to 'give' yourself fully to another; it makes no difference whether it is a sexual relationship or the exact opposite.

The betrayal is the same. The abandonment is the same. And the feeling of total rejection and self value is the same. It is equivalent to having an affair and leaving your family for your mistress ... and this is when your home life is to be envied ... go figure.

All because of guilt and fear, this life doesn't count, it is the next. Don't live for this life because it will never be any good. The next one will be better if you treat those you love and make full commitments to with the utmost degradation and scorn.

This is God's word and promises? Just like all the other 'God's' words and promises that have been proven wrong? Just guilt and fear deeply imbedded by self and group hypnosis. Putting oneself in a state of altered consciousness which singularly last up to 4 days, and then immediately planting thoughts and new ethics in that altered mind and governed by absolute fear and guilt, what else can one expect?

I know that being close to my partner who i love, sustains me. It gives me energy. It allows me to go to a place that leaves the messy world away. For a brief time, everything is right in the world and my sensations are of just love. And sex just brings it all together and lifts it to phenomenal height. Somewhere the BKs, or anyone else for that matter, can not intrude.

In some ways it could be akin to 'healing'. This then helps me to be a better person, to show more love and care towards others. It sets my little world 'right', and if my world is OK, than I can make everything else OK ... within reason. It creates a balance in life.

We are physically and emotionally void if the base need, and I mean NEED, of human touch is not fulfilled or totally vetoed. That love and expression of love promotes trust, belief and acceptance of oneself. Encourages an ability to trust others, to in some ways leave yourself totaly open and not fear rejection.

This attachment, and end results of an attachment to another, is exactly the opposite to organisations such as BKs would desire. Isolation, guilt and fear has a very effective way of negatively impacting on these rewards and these negative thoughts and emotions can only increase the power of control and manipulation of a person.

I can not begin to describe the effect it has on the non-BK person. The fact that it is not disclosed, that it is implanted so deeply in the subconscious, makes it nothing but pure deceit. My ex- could only describe that he just did not feel right, but it took another 12 months before he could analyse what was disturbing him.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 28 Jun 2007

di wrote:My thoughts say if you have made a commitment to someone, that person hasn't done the wrong thing, you are getting on well, and you renounce your relationship and that commitment to 'give' yourself fully to another; it makes no difference whether it is a sexual relationship or the exact opposite.

The betrayal is the same. The abandonment is the same. And the feeling of total rejection and self value is the same. It is equivalent to having an affair and leaving your family for your mistress ...
Of course, I play the part of the psychopomp here. I have empathies on both sides and travel between both worlds. I like travelling light and I can see the BK argument. But I will say that, on the basis of observation and experience, I do believe that Di is right here - and this is one area of unresolved violence that the BKWSU needs to address and resolve. But probably wont.

Causing the damage and breakdown of other people's relationship.

Andrey piped up to defend the BKWSU on the basis of "relationship fall apart ... that is the way of the world". Well, I do not accept that fully. Yes, relationships do fall apart but here, with the BKs, you do have this element of betreyal and infidelity on the behalf of the BK.

How some BKs can do this, and then break their faimly unit and demand the money or house or whatever, I have no idea. I also know that the BKWSU and other BK followers have "conspired" with such BKs and provide letter of support for their legal defence etc in extreme cases. There are a couple of cases I am investigating where a husband has alledgely committed suicide when losing everything.

Why is it betreyal and infidelity? Well, the BK is entering into another heart relationship with another personality, be it Shiva or the Avyakt Lekhraj Kirpalani/Brahma. The mind and emotions are taken away to a new living lover .. no some dead, dry abstract concept or practise as mediation might be seen. I think also, could may be even say "know" in some cases that a BK sister has played a part in capturing or holding onto another's husbands. On a basic level it can be personal. On a higher level, your SS are "capturing" subjects for their kingdoms.

How can the BKWSU justify this? Easy. Its the End of the World ... Destruction is coming ... Time to grab your fortune for 5,000 Years ... the world is full of Devilish individuals and your husband/wife is one of them if they do not submit to the will of the BKWSU SISTERS. (Not necessarily the will of any God).

What should they do? In my opinion,full disclosure to new students at day one
not accepting students for "surrender" who have not finished any family duties
only accepting those that have not got any responsibilities.

I am sorry Di, you are obvious hurting today. It will come and go until it has gone again ... this is just to cheer you up;
alladin wrote:The sad story Heshe reported about a Brother who did not even pet a pussycat in 10yrs,
Are you sure that he just did not understand Shrimat when Sister Sudesh waggled her finger at him and said, "No pussy now!"?

Di, you want to see some sad people, come and see the rank of little old Indian BK ladies sitting their untouch, probably unloved all their lives, arranged marriages, now burdens to their families as widows, toothless gnarly little brown rocks amonst a pile of laundry. For them, their Baba is all they have. It for them that I feel a sorry. They do not even get to stroke and comfort each other.

Someone needs to go in and do some bodywork classes getting BK touching each other in non-sexual, healing manners. Paulkershaw? Did you ever have any luck in this department?

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Post by heshe » 28 Jun 2007

People, I have witnessed the awful side effects in others and myself when it comes to unguided celibacy in the men and women of the BKs. Correct me if I am wrong though, it is my understanding that in India there are inbuilt supports for people taking up this vow? Whether it be through exersice to regulate testosterone levels or mantras diet etc.

What is lacking is an open and mature disscision of the pitfulls and heights of such a vow of chastity. When ever I aim towards open dialogue within the bk family about these things, there is a embarresed silence :oops:. It often feels like I am talking to a group of teenagers who deny their own self the chance to openly talk in order top save face. [As Men at Work put it] "I do not WONT TO SAIL WITH THESE SHIP OF FOOLS" :lol:

Come on peole, let's get real and start being the best we can for each other. Which means honesty and integrity. This has been refreshing and therapy for me. Thanks for the chance to share. God bless 8).

Actually it was Split Enz. Love that band.

Does listening to Black Sabbath's "Heaven and Hell" album during the Baba's meeting count as naughty? 8) Tell me I am naughty. I love to be told I am naughty :wink: :wink: :wink:.

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Post by di » 28 Jun 2007

:shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: Yes, naughty is good. Split Enz ... tops.

No, ex-I, not hurting as much these days. Though it still runs deep. It is just there ... I am the really lucky one. I have a life and a future. Those poor old dears ... makes me want to go and give them a massive hug ... They would probably die of heart attack receiving such warmth from a Shudra!!!! Now that would be a different cleansing ... a mass hug-in and kiss-a-thon of all BKs ... show them what real caring is all about.

It is awe inspiring how you fantastic people here have gone from a deceptive-type existence, where any real warmth was taboo, where you couldn't have a mind or thought of your own, to the openness and pure honesty that you all display here. Far more honesty and insight than the average Joe Blow. I guess all your suffering wasn't for naught.

Definitely come out the other side with a extra 'something' special. Total honesty and openness ... that to me is one of the things that God is about. :). So, I guess in a way you all certainly did come a lot closer to the higher being than pre-BK.

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Re: Do not touch pussycats, impure company & avoid affec

Post by paulkershaw » 28 Jun 2007

alladin wrote:In that case, I'd rather start up an animal shelter activity or become a dog sitter, more healing and safe than renouncing our pets!!!
On the other side, how many people in the world prefer to keep pets, cats and dogs etc instead of investing in an intimate and involved relationship? I've seen cases where the animal has taken the place of a partner ... aren't the BKs pracitising something similar in essence?
ex-l wrote:Someone needs to go in and do some bodywork classes getting BK touching each other in non-sexual, healing manners. Paulkershaw? Did you ever have any luck in this department?
My own personal journey has been much the same, even after leaving Gyan. Relationships were difficult for all the same reasons and I battled to touch people. This changed, over time, after I would allow sometime to do a foot massage on me.

Nowadays, I am totally open to it all but its taken many post -BK years to get there. In fact, it was great yesterday feeling such, I finished a new massage course yesterday and was sprawled out on a table virtually butt-naked and really relaxed in front of a room full of people, and not caring one iota at all. I feel that I've learn to honour my body and not hide it underneath neck-high clothing that resonate in the same level to supressed emotions. If ya don't touch it - ya wont' feel it ... if ya don't see it - ya wont have to deal with it syndrome ...

I know of some 'BKs' nearby me who also practice massage and healing therapies but seem to keep it quiet from their mainstream BK contacts. Cant understand why ...

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Such frankness, Thank you

Post by abrahma kumar » 28 Jun 2007

Not much more to add right now but the last week or so on this topic has taken things to a whole new level. Thanks to everyone as always. One day i will join you.

abek

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Re: Such frankness, Thank you

Post by fluffy bunny » 28 Jun 2007

abrahma Kumar wrote:One day I will join you.
What!?! Are you planning on reincarnating as a sister or joining paulkershaw in drag?

You cant fool us.

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Post by paulkershaw » 28 Jun 2007

Jeeezzzzz, talk about doing something once or twice and getting labelled!

I wish to categorically state that I do not do drag. It was all for fun ...

Anyway I no longer have the legs that I used to ... :lol:.

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