Is this the end?

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ms orange
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Re: Is this the end?

Post by ms orange » 02 May 2008

Hi Sakash,

I just thought I'd offer an alternative perspective to some of the other comments. But of course, follow your own heart. Don't listen to any of us!
bluesky wrote:... you need to sacrifice and surrender, so that you only act according to their directions. You have to surrender your intellect, body, mind, wealth, practically everything. You have to be a person with no reasoning and thinking. You are just obedient to everything.

I have never found this to be the case. The surrender and obedience and sacrifice is to high principles, truth and God. It is never to a human being. Some people may want you to surrender to them, but you just don't go there. Keep to your own truth, follow the path (if you want to) which is a pretty simple path really. A lot of the things that get discussed on this forum I feel are so far away from the essence of the BK Raja Yoga path, I am amazed. While you might have dreadful experiences with people in positions of leadership, for your own happiness, don't paint everything with the same brush. Don't dismiss a philosophy you love (if you do) because of some bad experiences (and I don't mean to belittle them - I know they can be seriously heart-breaking) But that's why I go back to the Trimurti - God, me and silence. That's it. I think ex-l called it auto-hypnosis. So be it. If it brings me peace and makes me good, I'll do it. I don't care what you call it.

But also, as was previously said, don't feel forced or guilted into anything. Do what you need to do for your own happiness and peace of mind.
But if you’re a independent person who questions things and hate to be controlled and manipulated, and prefer freedom, then you have to re-evaluate your life.

It's true. Definitely don't do anything where you feel controlled and manipulated. At times when I have come up against difficulties with relationships on this path (this is waaaaaaaaay in the past mind you but I do remember very well) I was very straight and direct with her. I told her directly how I felt and what I would no longer accept from her. She was surprised, but so surprised that she took it on board. I don't think she had realised what she'd been doing. She slipped up a couple of times, and I reminded her and she's changed remarkably since then. She's just a person too. Getting along with her spiritual life and working on changing herself, which is a pretty intricate process. You're somewhere in that process, and probably at a point of great change. The real difficulties, in my experience, often precede some great shift.

Keep on, keep being gentle with yourself, speak to yourself kindly and lovingly and give your mind and heart space.

With love and peace
Ms Orange

sakaash
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Re: Is this the end?

Post by sakaash » 02 May 2008

Thank you all yet again for your inspiring words ...

I did not go to class this morning ... I woke up and just let the time pass by. On the way to work, the guilt kicked in. My response to this was not positive, I am ashamed to say, I feel myself getting irritated by the slightest things ... when I don't get a boost from morning class, my entire day is affected. I know I shouldn't let it, but it just does! At least work is hectic, so I can shift my attention onto something different but, like now when it is a bit quiet, I am right back there, looking at the void and wondering how to fill it!

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by ms orange » 02 May 2008

Hi Sakash,

Something I've done ... whenever there's something really awful, is go into it. Don't fight it, or work out how to fill it (in the case of a void), but just accept it and be with it. I find that it works to take the edge of it. It dissipates the power of it somehow. It's a similar thing to when I've "worked on sanskaras". If there's something really tough I want to shift, I accept the negative form of it first. Accept it and sit with it like an old friend. And it kind of takes the air out of the balloon. Then it's much easier to handle and resolve. Try it out anyway. See if it works.

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by fluffy bunny » 02 May 2008

ms orange wrote:I think ex-l called it auto-hypnosis.
Hmmn ... no, I think the hypnosis is just part of it. The making soft of the ground. There is also, in my opinion, psychism of various sorts; spiritual "overshadowing" and channelling going on in different manners, cathexing between the BK follower and various spirits.

Actually, the hypnosis/auto-hypnosis theory was not mine but I know agree with. However, I was surprised to discover that the accusations of the same went right back to the 1930s when the trance 'possession' and mediumship was far more common and profound amongst the followers and numerous early mediums, the most of which, and the events of which, have been written out of the Yugya history.

The question of whether it is or is not "God" remains open. Obviously it is not what the rest of the world considers to be god. This could just be 'The Great Re-write' and so one should remain cautious and non-BKs fairly informed.

I attempt to be specific.

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alladin
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turning humans into sheep

Post by alladin » 02 May 2008

In response to Ms. Orange:
Ms. Orange wrote:I have never found this to be the case. The surrender and obedience and sacrifice is to high principles, truth and God. It is never to a human being. Some people may want you to surrender to them, but you just don't go there.
I agree with your interpretation and suggestion. If you are strong enough, you can teach others to become clear and strong also. The majority of spiritual seekers are meaning well people, often psychologically damaged and open to abuse from gurus, sect leaders and similar users. I feel that both in the lokik world and in the BK spiritual family, there are more than some people who expect others to bow down. The knowledge is designed to convince us that doing that; being humble, submissive, yielding etc ... is a virtuos behaviour. It often translates into becoming other people's doormats or slaves.
Keep to your own truth, follow the path (if you want to) which is a pretty simple path really.
And who is it that made it complicated, the leaders or the followers?
A lot of the things that get discussed on this forum I feel are so far away from the essence of the BK Raja Yoga path, I am amazed.

Inevitable. Passengers embarked on a ship, and when some of them woke up, after having been narcotized, they realized that the ship was sailing off course, in a direction totally different from the one they originally bought the ticket for. Hijacked by pirates!
While you might have dreadful experiences with people in positions of leadership,
You said you travelled around. So you probably have come across some small centers and you can understand that if you live near a small center and those in charge of it/other students are abusive, you have nowhere to go. It can be very stifling and frustrating. Australia has always been famous for being less fundamentalist, lighter, more fun (BK world) but some places are unbearable. I don't know if you 'd be able to last there! Not everyone has the privilege of moving around. Some people are stuck, and in fact, often they are even asked to stay where they are because Baba needs their hand!! So, please broaden your vision!

It's hard for an emancipated Western woman to imagine how oppressed her sisters are in the third world. Yet, things happen, they are not "exaggerations" of people on victim trips, or unreal!
I was very straight and direct with her. I told her directly how I felt and what I would no longer accept from her. She was surprised, but so surprised that she took it on board.

Sorry, who's "her"? A Senior Sister?

If that was the case, you must have felt good afterwards. It is quite a test to be totally straightforward with SS! Requires a lot of self-esteem and a good connection with Baba (Yoga power). Not all possess enough of them. The BK system is meant to curb people, to make them less assertive, to doubt in their own feelings and deny their deep desires (I don't think you can see that at the moment, otherwise you would stop playing the devil's attorney). If you castrate a cat, how can you expect him to mate?
The real difficulties, in my experience, often precede some great shift.
Yes, Inshallah!

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by fluffy bunny » 02 May 2008

ms orange wrote:I have never found this to be the case. The surrender and obedience and sacrifice is to high principles, truth and God. It is never to a human being.
I wonder what Suman of Germany would answer to that? Tried being a surrendered soul and having a different opinion from the Kripalani Klan. Nice theory but in practise, God is increasingly Dadi Janki or her backbone.
alladin wrote:You said you travelled around. So you probably have come across some small centers and you can understand that if you live near a small center and those in charge of it/other students are abusive, you have nowhere to go. It can be very stifling and frustrating.
Good point Alladin.

One of the things that really motivated me was when I heard they had been taking the dowries off teenage Indian girls who wanted to join them. I think for decades. I have found references over a period of decades.
  • The BKWSU "partyline" was ... that it was to "stop poor parents dumping their unwanted daughters on them".
Even then, it sounds pretty uncharitable to me ... are they not God's equal children too? Does ShivBaba not love them? (Or are we all numberwise according to our socio-economic backgrounds). Now, that to me is actually slavery. Big 'ha-ha!' for a so-called feminist organization. In India, if you are a women without a dowry, least of all an ex-BK woman without a dowry ... you are dog meat basically.

It was not, "we will take the money and hold it in trust, invest it for them and if they ever choose to leave, we will give it back to them". No, it was, "pay for child's upkeep whilst we test her out and train her (the first 6 months) ... then give us her dowry so she is our for keeps". My feeling (although I do not know this part and hope to be disproved) is that these are the junior center-in-charges and palace servants you see around the Yugya. No Exit equals No Threat. Its not even 'indentured servitude'.

Now ... we have to face it, funded or not, if you are fair skinned, good looking, serviceable Westerner ... you are VIP BK material. Used for PR gigs, front of house, VIP service and reception work etc. In India, especially in the old days (although I think they have gotten over it now that they have money and power), the blue eyed, blonde haired Double Foreigners were big cheeses.

What do we really know about the conditions of the Hindis, especially Hindi sisters old and young ... what Self Management Leadership have their really benefited from? Can they really express how they feel and think and do they have access to the real history and philosophy of the BKWSU? Are they involved in the discussion?

I can also say, absolutely, that the SS decreed which center you were at and applied subtle pressure to keep people where they wanted ... and God save you if you had a psychotic center-in-charge. "It was your karma" and as long as she got up for 4 am and kept her knickers up, the SS would back her not any complaints (Speaking from direct personal knowledge here). Yes, BK Australia was always envied by BK West.

"Speaking in context" means, "we can change things to suit ourselves whenever we want".

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by sakaash » 02 May 2008

Wow, you guys really do know how to pick apart a response. I noticed that ms orange is a BK, and although her advice to me has been nothing short of caring, is it me or maybe I am reading into it ... seems like her suggestions are always derided in some way or another.

I know everyone has their own ideas about the whole BK thing but I see it like this, there is good and bad in the BK system, if it was all bad, I know I wouldn't be having these issues ... fact is, there is a lot of good in there even with the non-caring attitude of some SS and the discrepancies in the Murli - who can disagree with the ideas like, "give no sorrow and take no sorrow", "consider yourself a soul, a child of God", "your original qualities are those or peace and love etc etc", "give up things like, anger, lust, greed". These things are like true jewels, we already know them to a certain extent, but the BKs are the only ones who actually say them like this and, to top it off, they claim that these sweet things are told to them by God ... I would expect a loving, caring God to say things like these and that's where I got hooked - big time!

Oh, and on another note ... I found myself having a mild panic attack earlier today when I tried to access the forum but was unable to get connected - some error with the page, I am afraid, I am becoming attached to this forum and all of you, now is that a good thing? Probably not ...

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by fluffy bunny » 02 May 2008

Gosh ... No attachment, please ! We're Brahmins. 8)

What can I say ... she's not wanting to answer the point we raised elsewhere re business and Gyan. As I apologised towards here, unfortunately we have been through the mill with a certain type of BK, the legal action by the BKWSO to shut us down etc, and I am afraid I running low on tolerance or accommodation.

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by sakaash » 02 May 2008

Oh OK ... but still, you must agree, patience and tolerance is a good thing (I am not fighting anyones corner here!). I just felt like Ms Orange wasn't getting a fair deal ... a bit like me I guess, perhaps I should stick up for myself - not so easy where I am at the moment BK life sure is challenging (understatement!) - at least it feels like I can be upfront on here!

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by fluffy bunny » 02 May 2008

You can be upfront on here. In fact, we will be intolerant as your center-in-charge if you do not!!! :D

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by sakaash » 02 May 2008

OK, so I am totally freaked...I've just read some stuff on this forum about anonymity and that some centres are asked to monitor this site so that they can figure out who is posting on here...that has just sent shivers through me...I don't want anyone to know I am having these issues! this is something I thought I would have to go through alone and I thought it was a godsend to have this site to talk through some of my issues with - could it be that someone out there in BK land knows who I am and might even have the power to ostracize me!?

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2 songs for a light weekend

Post by alladin » 02 May 2008

Hi, Sakaash. Please don't worry about becoming "dependent" and missing your forum interaction. It happens to all us due to the starvation we endured ,the lack of sincere, open communication whilst in the BK totalitarian claws!
Instead, it's amazing how far in paranoia they can get us!! Of course if you still have some dealings with the BKs you may wonder and feel "watched"! But remember that now thye have to watch out a bit morre about abusing and banning people, because next thing that happens: their nasty actions will be reported and visible on the web! So, from preys we can become hunters, or at least free citizens!
Remember this song about paranoias?

Somebody's Watching Me - Rockwell

I am just an average guy with an average life
I work from nive to five, hey hell I pay the price
But I want is to be left alone in my average home
But why do I always feel like I am in the Twilight Zone

CHORUS:
I always feel that somebody's watchin' me
And I have no privacy
I always feel that somebody's watchin' me
Is it just a dream?

When I come home at night
I bolt the door real tight
People call me on the phone I am trying to avoid
Well, can the people on TV see me or am I just paranoid

CHORUS

When I am in the shower, I am afraid to wash my hair
I might open my eyes and find someone standing there
People say I am crazy, just a little touched
But maybe showers remind me of Psycho too much
That's why...

I always feel like somebody's watching me
Who's playing tricks on me
I always feel like somebody's watching me
Tell me it cannot be

I don't know anymore
Are the neighbors watching me
Well is the mailman watching me
And I don't feel safe anymore, oh what a mess
I wonder who's watching me now?
Who?
The IRS?

I always feel like somebody's watching me
Who's playing tricks on me
I always feel like somebody's watching me
I cannot enjoy my tea!

One more- apologies to admin. !- for a light week-end. :D


Some compare the BKWSO to a drug and I want a new drug:

Huey Lewis And The News: I Want a New Drug

I want a new drug
One that wont make me sick
One that wont make me crash my car
Or make me feel three feet thick

I want a new drug
One that wont hurt my head
One that wont make my mouth too dry
Or make my eyes too red

One that wont make me nervous
Wondering what to do
One that makes me feel like I feel when Im with you
When Im alone with you

I want a new drug
One that wont spill
One that do not cost too much
Or come in a pill

I want a new drug
One that wont go away
One that wont keep me up all night
One that wont make me sleep all day

One that wont make me nervous
Wondering what to do
One that makes me feel like I feel when Im with you
When Im alone with you
Im alone with you baby

I want a new drug
One that does what it should
One that wont make me feel too bad
One that wont make me feel too good

I want a new drug
One with no doubt
One that wont make me talk too much
Or make my face break out

sakaash
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Re: Is this the end?

Post by sakaash » 02 May 2008

again....cannot sleep, appetite has gone somewhat, now paranoia has struck and I think I am being watched...I wonder, what makes me think I am so special that the BKs would want to spy on me....I am not a threat to them anyway, its just another negative feeling to add to the lot, think I might be getting a cold as well..jeez! I figured out a lot today, doesn't feel like I can say what though..perhaps I should just call it a day and leave this forum before I get too attached to it, before someone finds out who I am and messes me up more than i already am! I am so tired, why cannot I just sleep! Today was hectic....

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by ms orange » 03 May 2008

alladin wrote: ... please broaden your vision! It's hard for an emancipated Western woman to imagine how oppressed her Sisters are in the third world. Yet, things happen, they are not "exaggerations" of people on victim trips, or unreal!
I am, at the moment and for the rest of this year, living in the "third world" with my "oppressed sisters" who are among some of the happiest people I have ever met.
The BK system is meant to curb people, to make them less assertive, to doubt in their own feelings and deny their deep desires (I don't think you can see that at the moment, otherwise you would stop playing the devil's attorney).
I understand that people do sometimes doubt their own feelings and deny their deep desires, but I don't believe the BK system is designed that way at all. I think it's our misunderstanding of it that makes that happen. I have also, at times, doubted my own feelings, been less assertive and denied my desires. It was only when I went deeper, quieter and stiller into the truth of Gods love that I saw my way through.
sakaash wrote:Wow, you guys really do know how to pick apart a response. I noticed that ms orange is a BK, and although her advice to me has been nothing short of caring, is it me or maybe I am reading into it ... seems like her suggestions are always derided in some way or another.
Thanks for your support Sakaash!
ex-l wrote:What can I say ... she's not wanting to answer the point we raised elsewhere re business and Gyan.
Have a look on the Tao of the Traveller thread - I've responded to your various comments and queries.

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by fluffy bunny » 03 May 2008

ms orange wrote:Have a look on the Tao of the Traveller thread - I've responded to your various comments and queries.
Its very easy to respond without answering. Politicians do it all the time. Please excuse the culture shock of our questioning the hierarchy ... its difficult being a pawn on the field of Kurukshetra and its understandable why one just does not want to think about such matters.

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