Is this the end?

sarah
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Re: Is this the end?

Post by sarah » 30 Apr 2008

Sakaash wrote:The worst part of this for me is thinking that I did not really meet God after all, I remember feeling so relieved that my search had ended and now I am anxious again x100! Was it God or not? I really don't know, so I guess not?!
You are the first person on this forum to express exactly what I feel. This is indeed the worst part of it. I can live without the 'family', the ritual and the sense of belonging. What is so tough is the fact that all your life you have been searching, finally you think the search is over and the joy and relief is amazing.

I can honestly say that the feeling that my search was over and that I finally had found the answer probably kept me going for a lot longer than I should have because the questions and doubts were already forming in my mind but, as Alladin said, I did not wish to face them because I was in love and did not want it to end. Maybe the agony of not knowing will encourage you to return and, as Arjun says, maybe for you, you need to stay with it and resolve these things in a BK way from within.

For myself, I think I am beginning to realise that the God I was seeking or connecting with is in actual fact all around me - in the faces of friends and strangers, in nature when I walk my dog, in the sunrise, in the laughter of children, in the satisfaction of a good day's honest work - I know this sounds corny and a bit phoney - for me I could give up the intoxication, the realisations and the blissful states.

What I won't give up is the sense that finally I am opening my eyes, accepting who I am and accepting that life is not perfect and that I create my own destiny and that I am connected with every individual on the planet, regardless of religion. I am connected with all life on this planet. Leaving the BKs has led me to see so much more and my scope has widened to take in the bigger picture.

Sarah

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by ms orange » 30 Apr 2008

Dear Sakaash,

I am writing as a long-term BK but I am certainly not writing to tell you what to do or to 'stay' or 'leave'. But yes, definitely, I can tell you on the basis of what I've learned, give yourself space and love yourself through this. Whenever something like this comes up, often we fight ourselves in our own mind (I've certainly done that in the past, but eventually learned not to!). Really keep loving yourself and talking to yourself as your dearest friend. I believe the seed of spiritual truth ... I believe that all are souls, and I believe in God and that this is how and where S/he comes. Unfortunately, there's also a lot of human stuff that comes in between, inevitably. So, as well as loving yourself through this ... and REALLY do it ... speak to yourself beautifully ... And go back to the absolute basics and see how you feel. Forget everything except you and God. The rest is all detail. Sit with yourself as a soul and see how it feels. I am saying this because it's a way to make your mind still and calm and to be peaceful again ... And when the spin of the mind or the heart comes up again, just accept the spin and talk to yourself lovingly. Then when you start to feel the spin quietening down (you can tell I've been through this cannot you?!) just go deep inside. You and God. That is your world. Leave aside everything else, for now. Just while you're healing/processing. If you cannot do it/ or don't want to do it, read something you love or do something you love that will enhance your spiritual world (personally, I've found that much better than binge shopping or a movie marathon which have tended to distract me and then I have to deal with it all later anyway!). Most of all ... whatever you decide ... it's not that just BKs are your family. We are all your family. And we are here for you ... wherever and whoever we are.

Lots of love and peace,
Ms Orange

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by fluffy bunny » 30 Apr 2008

The real only problem with that approach is the question of whether the spirits being channelled by the Brahma Kumaris are God or not.

I could agree that the Bk practise is pacifying. We question it auto-hypnotic effect. When a BK uses the God word, they mean BapDada and none of us can really be sure that he - or they - are and if two entirely separate concepts are being confused. I'd say most folks have a bit of a question mark hanging there given all the anomalies, manifestations and unanswered questions. A few minor ones remain in the Tao topic for me.

I was studying over an old Murli from the early 80s for quite a different purpose but came over the exact quote mr green referred to once in another topic. We were discussing the Australian sister that had been murder in the screwdriver attack on the way back from Madhuban and other abuses.
6/7/1981 Avyakt Bap - Dada Revision Course Murli

Bap Dada is with you. No one can do anything to you. They cannot do anything! it has been said that the kittens remained safe even though they were in the burning furnace. Nothing happened to them.

They cannot harm even one hair on your head. It is not an ordinary being that is with you. It is the Almighty Authority.
Now, how to we square a direct quotation from God ... allegedly ... and the murders and suicides (of which there have been more than a few) of BKs. I reported another Indian sister's whose body was found in a burnt out apartment not so long ago, I am sure that I only know the tip of the iceberg.

If we add the likes of this to that the failed predictions of Destruction, which is what I was looking for originally, the unspoken historical revisions (20 years of Prajapati God Brahma with no mention of Shiva etc) and the conduct of the Seniors ... who is this God and what are their words worth, ms orange? Do we say, OK it is God but he gets it wrong or does not know what he is talking about? Or do we question what we are being told and encouraged into .. and where to go?

It does not add up. This is why, when an individual is having a crisis such as Sakaash, I would advise them to give their exposure to the BKWSU and its practise a bit of a break ... not get sucked back into the sweet vortex. To find their own feet and head again.

Nice to see you back, ms orange, how did Baba's go down at the film festival? we have updated that topic and look forward to your comments.

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by ms orange » 30 Apr 2008

I would suggest that perhaps bringing up the topics aren't going to be particularly uplifting for Sakaash, which is who this particular forum is for. We are responding to her/his concerns and his heartache. Let's save the debate for another forum.

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by sakaash » 30 Apr 2008

Hi ex-l - you jogged my memory about a sisters centre that was burgled and when they spoke with Dadi Janki about it - they were told that they were not having enough Yoga. Not sure if that was the correct thing to say or not, I guess I saw that as they were to blame, just as with any and everything bad that ever happens to anyone - it is all their fault - their bad karma. I never liked that. It feels like kicking someone when they are down.

Anyway, Ms Orange seems like she has been through the mill and I love the idea of just me and God, I don't feel guilt when I think of my relationship with God in that way ... the guilt comes if I miss the Murli or Amrit Vela or if I choose to wear jeans to Sunday class ... so I always have some form of guilt.

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by fluffy bunny » 30 Apr 2008

ms orange wrote:I would suggest that perhaps bringing up the topics aren't going to be particularly uplifting for Sakaash, which is who this particular forum is for. We are responding to her/his concerns and his heartache. Let's save the debate for another forum.
I promise you, reality is VERY uplifting. Let's save the soporific indoctrination for another forum. Oh, the "revised" BK Australia forum is down right now ...

I make no apology. I would appreciate a response to some of our questions on the Tao of the Traveller topic. I find it too typical of the BKWSUs these days that when you ask them a straight or serious question, they just ignore it and instead spend their attentions where the money is. Like Kuwait.

There is a whole untold story of how Lekhraj Kirpalani looked after his lokik family and even King Janak sees her lokiks on the quiet. I wonder what goes on there? Indeed, as actions speak louder that mock-Jayanti meditation tapes, it would be on topic to wonder where the Kiwi polish fortune is going or if the lokik family is benefit from that instead of Baba.

This is the sort of stuff that is not discussed openly inside the BKWSU but which would help other BKs make their decision rationally before donating for more centers.

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by ms orange » 30 Apr 2008

What you refer to as soporific indoctrination was me trying to be a nice person. You must have had a really tough time, to read kindness as that, so I am sorry for that. ex-l, as a bk you I find that the way you respond to anything I say makes being part of this forum difficult and unappealing. I've answered the queries you posted on the taotraveller site in previous posts. I will answer genuine questions but I won't response to insults or accusatory remarks. As I've said many many times, anything you want to know about the films finances, contact the producer. I wish you well, I really do ... but you make it unnecessarily tough. This is why many BKs won't/don't participate in this forum.

With my warmest wishes, ms orange

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by sakaash » 30 Apr 2008

OK ... so I am on my lunch break and my mind drifted over here again. I thought of the children being brought up in Yoga and I remember as a child being taught the course. I was soooo confused. I had dreams about Brahma Baba and was treated very special by SS's. I had so many questions but they were never answered. I read the book "The Eternal World Cycle" when I was about 12 and wrote my questions down but no one could answer me. I think that was when I drifted away ... but the teachings always stayed with me ... I am a nature lover and I felt something spiritual about that connection, making a connection with "God" was not as easy for me.

I knew I needed God in my life and that's when I took the course again and it was fantastic! I understood things I did not understand the first time round and I really did let my guard down ... all the way down! This is why I feel soooo betrayed now. I know the BKs say don't ask why ... but I cannot help but think why did not God step in for real! If this spirit is not him/her wouldn't he want to make sure people did not get duped! It feels like either I am not worthy or there is no God! - there I said it!

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by fluffy bunny » 30 Apr 2008

ms orange wrote:As I've said many many times, anything you want to know about the films finances, contact the producer.
I do not want to drift off topic and interrupt on someone's important thread. But I wrote to the producer. I got a promise of a reply. And then nothing to further requests. Just like with the BKWSU leadership with which he is closely related. As you stated, you admirably chose to go public, he is your Father after all.

Until we get to the root of the problems, and the BKWSU address the issues and controversies we have raised here, there is not a lot of point have orthodox or evangelist BKs here except for their education :shock: ... and, unfortunately, early on and else where on the internet we faced some very bad examples of what BKs are and do. As I said before, I did not have a tough time. I am not personally motivated in that way. The issues and anomalies are huge enough that anyone with a conscience would be aroused by them. It is just one community that I specialist knowledge in and can help. I am sick of the stereotype of the 'bitter or vindictive ex-BK' etc.

Until those issues mentioned are resolved, I do personally think the BKWSU should best be quarantined because BKs, literally, do not know what they are carrying. I sure most mean well but who knows is going on and the leadership have deceived them and are deceiving others. The God ... what do we call it ... "projection" being a prime example. This is not personal but I mean, specifically, the way we talk/talked to other faiths at interfaith meetings as if their god was the same as the BK god and vice versa ... I will respond to you personally off forum.

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by sakaash » 30 Apr 2008

So, I am here again, cannot get to sleep with all this on my mind. I've turned into a bit of a miserable twat! And that is only after a short time of facing this thing head on. How long is this gonna go on for? Couldn't even make dinner tonight ... settled for chips instead. So much for eating only food cooked by brahmins!

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maybe they are tests

Post by alladin » 30 Apr 2008

Hi, Sarah. I think you have the right, we all do, to someday experience blissful states totally dissociated from the BKs. They force down our throat the belief that it’s either this or that. On one side is Heaven and them, angels, on the other side is materialism, corruption, sorrow, perdition and total loss.

That if we stop buying their doctrine and emancipate ourselves, we are worthless shudras who stained their record, often crippled because fallen from the 5th floor, with a darkened ugly face, monkeys, with no future because we lost our status, and no right to come close to God.

Maybe this relationship with God we are trying to build or discover, needs for us the experience of allowing clergy or a sect to hijack it, suffer from that and realize a number of things until we wake up and make it real and ours. Make it so strong that we really become like the kittens that were safe in the furnace, they did not burn. In spite of the BKs. I was reading of female-only projects and communities both in India and Africa, which are amazing. They could have only bloomed where women are oppressed beyond any imaginable limit for westerners.

So, a relationship is energy, is love. Our love for God and for our Higher self, gets harnessed and diverted by the BKs. They act like ball breaking “in laws”. They test us. We can experiment thinking of us and God as a unit, and eventually go beyond any interference. Maybe it is true that in order to have a mystic union with God, we have to become very pure and strong like him, and overcome all the rubbish that humans try to instil in us for their own selfish and impure motives. Stop feeling guilty and fearful, in any instance, including those Sakaash was mentioning “not waking up for Amrit Vela, wearing jeans in class”.

Feel in tune with nature and know that God is there enjoying with you and if some bitter and dry BKs cannot feel the same bliss, it’s their problem, they’re just envious, loveless souls, so be deaf to their comments. You can sleep with Baba, if you’re too tired to get up, you can take his hand and walk into class “dressed differently”. You can even decide that what matters is that you stay with him and you don’t need to attend any of such classes anymore! Ah, what a sin that would be! Stopped going to mass, and became happier and started to shine!

As far as callousness and cynical speeches about people being attacked or burgled, I have heard similar comments that prove how elevated and noble the souls who utter them are. In fact, we should never be surprised: the BKWSO is a conservative, totalitarian, like ex-l was pointing out, pyramidical society, repulsively chauvinist. They are the citizens and judges who, if a woman gets raped, will question her morality first and say that the victim attracted the problem by dressing in a provocative way. If she gets beaten up or killed, well, she spoke too much or did not know how to stay in "her place"!

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by sakaash » 01 May 2008

Hi Alladin,

Your words really struck home for me ... even though I had a hard time getting to sleep last night I got up for class this morning. Offering Bhog seemed like a ritual. I had my questions about that when I first witnessed it and I still do, but today after the Murli, I asked a question instead of stating what I "took" from the Murli.

My question was this:
  • Baba says that 330 million deities are remembered (that was in todays' Murli 1/05/08)
    Baba also says that there are no deities in the Silver Age (this was in yesterdays' Murli)
    but 330 million is the population at the end of the Silver Age.
I asked, why the contradiction?

I was told that Baba speaks in context and so I must take what he says and have a subtle intellect to understand these things. I was then bombarded with loads more contradictory statements made in Murlis in order to prove the "point" that there are contradictory statements all over the Murli. This left me even more confused, as far as I know and a wise friend once told me "God is not a confusing God".

You know to a certain extent I was able to look past the sanskars of SS and others in Yoga who have some really testing sanskars. I never used my intellect to scrutinise the teachings, since for the most part they have been positive. Now I am beginning to question the teachings themselves and this is very scary for me.
Feels like I am falling down a rabbit hole! I pray God will catch me! (oh sorry, BKs don't pray!)

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by sakaash » 01 May 2008

I am here again ... feels like this is becoming my blog, like a diary of this part of the journey of my life, at least it helps to think that someone out there might read this and not feel alone. I am just down, not much to say really, the same feelings of hopelessness I expressed in different ways earlier. Its funny how at night these things come back to my mind, almost like the daily grind is an escape from the thoughts that are pretty deep, re: God and life.

I wonder if anyone else feels like this ... they look at their lives and think, what is the point for real? You spend the better part of your life working to live, hopefully finding someone to spend your life with or maybe even find the holy grail ... God himself, but it is not really real. No one really knows what happens when it all ends, we either invest in the future, our childrens' future, or invest in something spiritual, something that will set me up nicely in my new life to come ... but who knows for sure, no one. I used to think to myself before the BKs, at least I could be a good person, even if I don't belong to a religion. A Christian friend of mine told me that I'd still end up in hell, since I did not believe that Jesus was the way.

So, maybe I should take all that this world has to offer ... maybe I should find a partner, a mortgage, 2.4 kids and enjoy the odd glass of wine now and then. Perhaps this limited happiness is all there actually is and to believe anything else is to be kidding myself ... what a lovely thought to fall asleep on!

... somehow, I still think I'll end up at class tomorrow morning!

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we can afford mental wanking

Post by alladin » 01 May 2008

Now I am beginning to question the teachings themselves and this is very scary for me.
I, and probably most of us, perfectly understand this feeling. How have I dealt with it? By making myself comfortable under the Great Spirit's canopy of protection and then, questioning.

In any case, nothing is definite and static on a spiritual path, for mystics and truth seekers of all ages. Also, when I feel caught up in complicated matters (it rarely happens), I just think of the billions of people who suffer for real practical reasons in areas of the planet where there's war and famine. BKs are forbidden to keep themselves informed but when you are down, read some article about Darfur, Iraq, Chechnya, Afghanistan or something, and you will soon feel ashamed for not appreciating the privileges you are enjoying.

To me, the number one service and obedience I want to show to God, is keeping myself in a good mood in spite of everything, so that I can spread good vibrations. Associating myself with negative souls or groups, makes this task difficult and life hell. So, I just keep clear from them. Have a good sleep and a nice day with lightness and holding God's hand.

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by bluesky » 02 May 2008

Dear Sakash,

If I can share something here ... You have to choose your life ultimately. If you prefer BK life, so be it. But remember, you need to sacrifice and surrender, so that you only act according to their directions. You have to surrender your intellect, body, mind, wealth, practically everything. You have to be a person with no reasoning and thinking. You are just obedient to everything. In return you get peace, love and blessings, although this may not be permanent. If you fall sick, become bankrupt or became poorer, then you may not get the same attention, unless you decide to work for the centre. So you have to decide what you want considering these factors. If you have analyzed the consequences and decided to be a pukka BK, then dedicate your life for that cause and do not confuse with this or that discussion, but if you do not want to be a pukka BK, so be it and if you want to exit, that's also fine. But you have to analyze the consequences and if you're willing to give in.

But if you’re a independent person who questions things and hate to be controlled and manipulated, and prefers freedom, then you have to re-evaluate your life. You get into understanding the real situation and you have to find out what is the best practice for you. In another word, you have to be responsible for your life, whether it is BK or otherwise. Helplessness, and confusion is a phase you’re going through now to decide on the next step. Believe me, it will take some time to sort this out. But I surely like to know what are the good things you have learnt in your life and in BK life and I hope you will keep them in your memories to move toward which ever life you wish.

Best,

Bluesky

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