Official Contact with Sister Jayanti BKWSU (UK) - legal

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For those involved with the Brahma Kumaris, to discuss issues about the BKWSU in a free and open manner.
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mr green
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Post by mr green » 04 Aug 2007

tinydot wrote:I suggest that we create an open letter addressed to BKWSO that can be viewed by anyone with the internet. We can put the link on the front page of www.brahmakumaris.info website. In the letter, we as good citizens of the world, Brothers and Sisters of the human race, are requesting BKWSO to answer some of the questions regarding their history and philosophy.

If they have the million minutes of peace project, we, too, can have the million sincere petitioners.

We can send the link of the open letter to friends, family members, relatives, and officemates as campaign for religious freedom not to discredit the BKs. Never mind sending the letter to BKWSO lest we are accused of spamming. Then, we can send the list of petitioners to the UN.

I will be one among the first to sign as a petitioner. My lokik family members will also sign-up.
It is an interesting idea.

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Post by andrey » 04 Aug 2007

If we would like to keep the communication then maybe we could appoint a representative to maintain the correspondence, like personal one-to-one letters that we may read here. There are many reasons to believe for this task Sister Bansy is best.

We should know what is possible to achieve and what is not worth trying. If we could have the daily Murli, then it will help a great deal in discussions in the forum. That will make them more regular. If we dicuss the daily Murli, then whenever questions may arise in motion can be posed here and there for comparison. It will aslo fulfill the dream of jannisder, and many others.

It should be clear we are not interested in anything else then self-progress. We believe world will progress like this. What is valuable here is that there is a community feeling. Topics and posts and points are not so valuable. All and the same topic is discussed everywhere. It is about who we are.

Just yesterday i realised the power of discussion on internet when i was searching for some information on a subject I am ignorant and i found a discussion, but did not find a definite answer. I am not clearer than before, but just received some more info regarding the subjects. It was also a "yes" and "no" situation and as i was reading as if things were going more to yes, then with other posts more to no. But it made one think. Made me go deeper. And maybe this is the reason why this place attracts. But it should not be this way.

One should be able to find definite answers.

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fluffy bunny
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Post by fluffy bunny » 04 Aug 2007

You make an interesting point that if they just handed over the Murlis, then they might shut us up ... and make a load of BKs happy who cant get them either ... because our mouths would be full of churnings.

I also agree that we should be allowed definitive answers. But I also think that the next level of self-development is when one extends one's responsibility beyond the self to others, the community as a whole and the world. It can also be a yukti to disempower individuals and get them out your way ... "look within ... look within".

I cant see the problem with this site. The BKWSU hands out awards to soccer projects as examples of "human greatness" ... why cannot it recognize the courage and determination here, how much faith on such little nourishment!?! We will change them.

I think it is far better than Jayanti or her equal comes on here officially and faces the music. I think in your goodwill, and lack of direct experience, you underestimate how skillful she is in handling individuals. The nice thing about a forum is that correspondence is slow enough to analyze in detail and is documented, so that there can be no argument who said or what. If they have nothing to hide, let her walk the BK talk.

Its a problem if they think this is a PBK site ... I do not know the history but either they are afraid of or bored to lathis with the unwinnability of the PBK line of argument.

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Post by john » 04 Aug 2007

ex-l wrote:I think it is far better than Jayanti comes on here, officially or unofficially, and faces the music.
I agree.

They have to take us seriously and not as just some pimple on their bloated a**e, otherwise the music will get louder and louder. We are serious, we want serious answers.

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SS houseplants

Post by fluffy bunny » 04 Aug 2007

I was just thinking ... do they allow "observers" at their Trustee or Zone-in-Charge meetings? Are they held in public or and documented? I would really like to read the by-laws. I think all BKs should be given a copy of them and centers have them, and the trustees name and contact details, on display.

My guess is that the real jossling of power and negotiations will actually goes on around the edges; in bhavans, cottages and during long airflights. Personally, I would not trust the trustees if they are all greehouse-grown, inhouse, SS plants but at least their legal responsibilities as a trustee are quite serious.

If, for example, Janki and Prakashmani are trustees and they is shown to have acted negligently over the child sex abuse, then they would have been in very serious trouble.

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Post by arjun » 04 Aug 2007

Abrahmakumar wrote:Are you volunteering to meet with her as one of the 'members' of this site or on behalf of the PBKs in the place of a/the Senior Administrators? And this talk about increasing mutual faith. Faith in what? That the purpose of the site is NOT to defame God's name? Or that the site is not aimed at destroying the BKWSU?
Dear brother,

Om Shanti. I have no vested interest in meeting Sister Jayanti but I would not decline a chance to discuss aspects of knowledge with her, if she ever expresses such a desire. Moreover I am in India and she is in London. How can a meeting between both of us take place unless she comes down to India? Even if she comes to our town and is willing to meet us, I would meet her only in the presence of a few PBK mothers &/or sisters. Even if she comes on this forum I (and perhaps other PBKs) would engage her only on the discussion related to Murlis and Avyakt Vanis and the BK knowledge.

By increasing mutual faith, I meant to say that it may increase her level of confidence that when she comes on this forum, she will be treated in a friendly and respectful manner.
Maybe there are 3 things I do not yet understand:
1. The extent of the PBK organisation experience with exiters.
2. Whether the PBKs are at heart desirous of having some sort of rapprochement with the BKWSU.
3. Whether the combined force of the BKs/PBKs will be more potent in requesting "contact and meeting with one of the members of this forum for their mutual benefit".
1. Some PBKs exit with a bang. Some exit quietly. Some exit permanently. Some exit temporarily. There have been many who exited and returned. There have been many who exited with a bang, but do not have any grudges now. There are some who still have the same anger against the PBKs and Baba Virendra Dev Dixit. Baba's doors are always open for anyone wishing to return.

2. PBKs believe that one day BKs and PBKs would unite as a single family.

3. Until BKs and PBKs unite, the third question is not applicable.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Meet & Increase Mutual faith in what? The God Men?

Post by fluffy bunny » 04 Aug 2007

abrahma Kumar wrote:3. Whether the combined force of the BKs/PBKs will be more potent in requesting "contact and meeting with one of the members of this forum for their mutual benefit".
Does not abek mean the combination of BKs, so-called "ex-BKs" and PBKs here and now?

Regardless of what anyone says, I still see this forum as the only place all such existence groups meet, knock heads and forge an existence together. If anyone believes anything within the Knowledge, that has got to figure as something unique. They may not like how we talk but they cannot deny that our conversation is bound around the subject and has reached into Godly essences untouched rank and file "Dadi bhagats".

I might not always agree with andrey, say, and have no investement in Advance Knowledge but would defend the forum as meeting place for individuals such as him and say the PBKs have a right to question and document the manner in which the BKWSU leadership treat them. I will do it, and draw criticism to me, even though you, as a group, would not to avoid such. That is what family are for. Especially when it comes to younger or poorer or more vulnerable members defending themselves against abuse of power.

Mostly I agree with the conclusions that they seek to neutralize outspoken individuals in anyway possible, but my door is still open if they chose to prove me wrong. I think that there is very little chance that she or they will be treated in a disrespectful manner but perhaps equally little chance of you or I getting definitive answers.

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Post by admin » 05 Aug 2007

A reply to the response has been received from BK Jayanti copied in full. Forum members response would be appreciated.
BKWSU wrote:Sun, 05 Aug 2007

Dear Friend,

I really do sincerely believe that meeting personally is the way to move forward.
I would also be happy to meet a group of individuals if that would be helpful.

I do hope you will reconsider.

BK Jayanti

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freedom
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Post by freedom » 05 Aug 2007

No personal meeting ... she is a big girl, she should be able to handle forums/emails ... :lol:

If there is nothing to hide ... :wink:.

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howiemac
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Post by howiemac » 06 Aug 2007

BK Jayanti wrote:I really do sincerely believe that meeting personally is the way to move forward. I would also be happy to meet a group of individuals if that would be helpful. I do hope you will reconsider.
I feel Jayanti is to be commended for showing willingness to participate in a dialog, even to the limited extent we have already seen. I can also understand that sysop does not want to act as (or be seen as) representative of the membership of this forum and site, and I commend sysop for that.

Now, Jayanti is making it clear that she is prepared to meet a group but that does not seem practical, given the geographic distribution of members all around the planet.

I can also understand, given her administrative workload (AFAIK she operates effectively as CEO of the BKWSU outside of India, deals with mountains of paperwork, and does not enjoy this aspect of her role), that she will not have the mental energy or time to get involved in detailed discussions on this forum.

But surely the email dialog can be continued, and made public on this forum. To push things along in this direction, perhaps sysop could explain the difficulties of a group meeting, our desire for openness and accountability and ask her what agenda does she wish to pursue by a meeting?

The email could also state the primary agenda of the members of the forum, which appears to me to be the open publication of Murlis, and the establishment of an open public dialog between the BKWSU and the members of this site.

I feel that Jayanti should be welcomed and that dialog should be fostered, rather than taking a confrontational or 'take it or leave it' stance.

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Post by john » 06 Aug 2007

howiemac wrote: what agenda does she wish to pursue by a meeting?

I agree. Definitely we have to find out what is the purpose of the meeting whether it goes ahead or not.
The email could also state the primary agenda of the members of the forum

Yes, i think that is the way forward setting out our position, and they theirs, before any meeting can take place.

I do not think she will come on the forum. Emails for now will have to be the way forward.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Aug 2007

howiemac wrote:But surely the email dialog can be continued, and made public on this forum. To push things along in this direction, perhaps sysop could explain the difficulties of a group meeting, our desire for openness and accountability and ask her what agenda does she wish to pursue by a meeting?
I do not understand the game here. I am absolutely sure, that on the drop of a piece of toli and a loving gaze, she could could find herself numerous willing volunteers for the role of relaying messages; much the same way as Arjun does to Virendra Dev Dixit. In fact, if the BKWSU could find themselves one BK with the darna, reason and gentle humor of Arjun, I'd have 100 times more respect for the organization as a whole.

At present, I cannot see what point there is to meet, even if it was logistically possible, and any unwillingness for there to be an official voice on this forum has to be interpretated as it seems.
  • Would I spoil things if I said what I think ... or have I said it before many times?

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Post by bansy » 06 Aug 2007

To reply to the latest email, this forum IS the meeting place.

The BKs have a cunning tactic of placing the burden onto other people, such as asking for a meeting, when they have been welcomed from the start and aware of this forum for a long time, but will refuse to participate if and when they feel they have no sense of control, a sense of fear and instability. About reconsidering, admin should ask her to reconsider joining the forum, or having a representative.

This forum is respresented by virtual members from all walks of BK-related life (PBKs, VPs, etc) and so the BKWSU is also allowed to be virtually representated too. No closed doors. (*)

If a meeting takes place, I will fear this forum has a lot of burden for admin to take. Providing he/she believes in karma :roll:.

I'll be happy to attend the meeting, plus the numerous ones that follow (surely one is not enough), provided I get to choose my accomodation, flight seat number, and compensation for break from lokik job :P.

(*) I recall watching a war movie about Ike (Eisenhower) and the build up to DDay when, with his chief of staff Smith, they were looking at a painting of Napoleon trekking through the forest on horseback with bloodied soldiers everywhere. Smith would comment how grand Napoleon was looking, whilst Ike replied that (on the eve of his decision to send the boys to Normandy), he was instead looking at the soldiers dying in the battle rather than Napoleon, and realised that his one decision could affected the ordinary soldier who has everything to lose. So the next day, Ike goes out to meet the ordinary boys before they go off into battle.

I am no Ike or Napoloen, but I feel this forum speaks out to the ordinary Raya Yoga student, whether they participate or not. This is commendable for the allowance by admin.

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mr green
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Post by mr green » 06 Aug 2007

bansy wrote:To reply to the latest email, this forum IS the meeting place. The BKs have a cunning tactic of placing the burden onto other people, such as asking for a meeting, when they have been welcomed from the start and aware of this forum for a long time, but will refuse to participate if and when they feel they have no sense of control, a sense of fear and instability. About reconsidering, admin should ask her to reconsider joining the forum, or having a representative. This forum is respresented by virtual members from all walks of BK-related life (PBKs, VPs, etc) and so the BKWSU is also allowed to be virtually representated too. No closed doors. (*) If a meeting takes place, I will fear this forum has a lot of burden for admin to take. Providing he/she believes in karma.
I agree bansy, it should be here, I think they should play our game, after all they approached us ... I have no desire to go to them, I know how that works. What benefit would there be in meeting her, unless you still have some Bhakti for her? I do not ... to me she is just a woman.

I also think there shouldn't be a representative other than for typing and sending emails as Alka is already doing ... (Hi Alka).

Remember she wants or appears to want to talk to us, why on earth shouldn't it done here??????? Let them tow the line for once.

Why should any of us pander to what appears to be their notions of grandeur?

If she wants to talk then talk.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Aug 2007

Speaking personally, if I wrote a reasonable letter to someone, like the one above, and that person completely ignored the points I raised by return. I would take it as a slap on the face ... at which point I would have to decide whether I was going to be Jewish, Christian, Buddhist or Singh :wink:.

If she does not think we, and the issues we raise, are important enough; either we carry on as we are - business as usual - or we become more important so that we have to be dealt with. May be we should take a leaf out their book and start approaching mikes and courting VIPs! Oh ... I see ... some of you already are.

For me (again), it is not us, the dissident voices, or even the abused and banished that I bother about. We've been through it. Did not die. There is nothing they can do to us now. Its will take a while but we will crack the entire history and Murli collection sooner rather than later. But when you read those messages from ostensibly BK followers ... the dependents ... old ladies, soldiers, folks in foreign countries and they are thanking us and begging us for more Murlis ... that's who and when I feel bad and sorry for.

WTF is going on that they cant even hear those voices, the voices of their own flock? Now if we get them ... how many more are there out there unanswered and unexpressed? And how many families dealing left dealing with and paying for the cost of **** like Di's, Katie's, Sweetsajani's ... and the many, many others we all know about?

So, let's forget any of their negative accusations of us. We are the one's that are fighting for liberty and equality, we are the one's that voicing concerns over Duty of Care, we are the one's that are providing a model of open and integrated fraternity ... and what are they doing? Re-writing the Wikipedia page to remove "mediumistic channelling". What is the best she can do? Try and convince us why we should them again and act like the BK secret service? Glasnost, comrades and onwards!

OK ... how serious are you bansy? Do you really want to put your face on the line? Andrey gives you his vote. My only concern about that idea is that if you took the airticket and expenses, you would only be taking the money off some poor cornershop owning Patel as they don't earn their own money.

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