Topics moved

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aimée
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Topics moved

Post by aimée » 21 Jun 2007

You might have noticed that some topics have been moved to the new section. In those topics, the author were clearly presenting themselves in a position outside and against the PBK philosophy. These linguistics signs such as "they" think that, "they" believe that etc. So for the moderators who are willing to do so, please could you move those posts that I think should not stay in the PBK section?

Again, I am thinking of the ones who are not PBK but have a genuine desire to understand what it is about and to consider it, not to undermine it. Those posts are not going to make things easy for them. The advance knowledge is already seriously complicated as it is. I don't mean we should apply censorship, I mean that it is so obvious to see in the tone of the post which one has the purpose to put doubt about the legitimacy of the PBK movement, the advance knowledge or part of it.

For those who have created those posts, I hope you will understand my genuine intention to have a war-free zone, and actually a real PBK zone, were everyone is warmly welcomed, if they want to share, ask, wonder etc, but not - however subtle it wants to be presented- to go against the PBK or the PBK knowledge. I think every members would be very happy to read those discussion in the new section.

Om Shanti

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john
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Re: topics moved

Post by john » 21 Jun 2007

aimée wrote:For those who have created those posts, I hope you will understand my genuine intention to have a war free zone, and actually a real PBK zone, were everyone is warmly welcomed, if they want to share, ask, wonder etc, but not - however subtle it wants to be presented- to go against the PBK or the PBK knowledge. I think every members would be very happy to read those discussion in the new section.
No, I don't understand, sounds like censorship and propaganda to me. If this turns into a cosy backpatting forum, it will be a sad loss for the pursuit of truth.

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Re: topics moved

Post by fluffy bunny » 21 Jun 2007

john wrote:No, I don't understand, sounds like censorship and propaganda to me. If this turns into a cosy backpatting forum, it will be a sad loss for the pursuit of truth.
I suppose there is a difference between questioning what PBK is, however hard, and pushing a different agenda knowingly.

This is not something I am involved in personally. I do not know the subject. But I guess it is just the karma of those that have pushed too hard outside of the box. I think Shivsensa sees himself as a PBK, new_world, what about you?

There is no shame in being independent or whatever.

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aimée
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Post by aimée » 21 Jun 2007

What I mean, is that some post are obviously aimed to systematically undermine the PBK knowledge.

If this place is considered as the PBK section in the forum, I don't think it is fair. If I write in this forum, is to give the opportunity for some to discover the Advance Party, and that God is still around in a Chariot, and that it is possible to meet him.

This knowledge is very deep in itself, it is so interesting, and it would be such a joy to see a place (the PBK forum) where there is real sharing, without constant opposition. If look back at the posts done so far, I have done so recently, and maybe because I read most of them for the first time, and I have taken part in very few of them, I could read as an observer. Well, if the observer were a non-pbk it would look pretty much like a mess, and rather unappealing because far too obscure, and frankly, I don't fancy reading them either.

Where is the spirit of the beginning, where there was real sharing? I am not speaking about all the posts, but quite a few of them have become a fight. Some post were moved, and now they have been put back, I don't know why. If you consider this is the opportunity for the public to discover the Advance Party, then those posts should not be here, especially because there is another section for those who don't agree with the advance knowledge, to give their point of view. This place is becoming like the ex-BK chat, I have already said that, and it is a real shame.

For me, if someone tells me that this is not Shiv teaching the clarification in the Chariot of Virendra Dev Dixit, or that the PBK are telling lies, or whatever I have read in some of the posts, then I think those people should say that in the new section.

So, again, is that fair?

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Re: topics moved

Post by john » 21 Jun 2007

ex-l wrote:I suppose there is a difference between questioning what PBK is, however hard, and pushing a different agenda knowingly.
I agree.

But, how or who will be deciding the motives of a poster? I am just getting this uneasy feeling. Especially when someone wants the forum to be used as a propaganda ground.

Is it going to be that if Aimee doesn't agree with or like a slant of a thread it will be moved to another section? Is that not like, well, playing God?

Would a BK be able to come into the BK section and do the same thing? Because if a PBK can, then surely it is only right that a BK can.

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Post by mr green » 21 Jun 2007

I don't feel comfortable with it either.

Surely everyone's opinion is valid, even if they are from another group?

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Post by aimée » 21 Jun 2007

ex-l' and John,

If you study the posts of Shivsena and New World, it is obvious that they speak against the advance knowledge. They won't say it openly, but it is clear for someone who knows the advance knowledge.

If you see the extract I have shamelessly taken from different places, with the linguistic signs showing that they are not PBK and against PBK. I know I am not really diplomatic, and I have no ill feeling against them. Just the genuine wish to see the PBK section as a peaceful place of exchange and respect, which it is not at the moment.

Is it possible to move the topics that are going against the PBK into the new section? This question is addressed to everyone.

Of course, this means the responsibility to take the decision to do so. But if the criteria is very specific, as the PBK directed as "they", and if the foundation of the PBK knowledge is put in doubt, then I think it is fair to do so. I probably would like to be ruthless is this task, and I don't mind being told off, but I think it is worthwhile having an overview of the PBK posts as a whole, with this focus in mind, as an observer.
Extracts:
Advanced Knowledge teaching of Krishna can change in the end but ShivBap's words in Murlis will be considered as final truth.
Advance knowledge is of ShivBaba, not Krishna, the term of ShivBap as someone speaking has never been mentioned as far as I know.
one cannot seperate Shiv and Ram from each other; but most PBKs are still insisting on seeing bindi ShivBap in Ram's forehead and completely forgetting the niraakari stage of Ram's soul.
Advance knowledge clearly says that it is Shiv, God teaching in the Chariot.
Also I do not believe that there is anything like Paramdham (golden red world) in outer space where ShivBap goes and rests for the next 5000 years; ShivBap again just becomes an observer in Ram's body for 5000 years
This has clearly been explained that Shiv does his job and go and rest in Paramdham, many times.
If it is for the benefit of human race then all the more reason that it is Rambap who should be revealed and glorified(because he has taken 84 births and achieved the 100% incorporeal stage) and not bindi Shiva, whom the human race (6-7 billion souls) cannot identify with.
Again the role of Shiv is denied.
Can any PBK throw some light on the above discrepancy between the Murli point and the teachings of Advanced Knowledge? PBKs feel that Bharat is Ram's soul. But ShivBap says in Murlis that, ''Ram is Parampita Paramatma''. So whom do we believe??? PBK's view or ShivBap's words!!!
No comment
PBKs also believe that 1st couple of (Golden Aged) Lakshmi and Narayan is 16 celestial degree complete. But they don't say anything about celestial degrees of confluence aged Lakshmi and Narayan. Its a simple logic that two souls cannot have the same amount of celestial degrees. There must be some difference. So nobody can say that both confluence aged & Golden Aged Lakshmi and Narayan have the same amount of celestial degrees. But PBKs will not accept that celestial degrees of confluence aged Lakshmi and Narayan are less than that of Golden Aged Lakshmi and Narayan.
Many time times it has been said that the Copper Age Lakshmi and Narayan were kalateet, meaning beyond degrees, and all the souls of their generation.
Here I wish to discuss with you about the prejudiced PBK perspective about the Ladder picture.
No comment
We can trace very ... very few statements about downfall of PBKs in the literature of Advance Party. But their views about Ladder is to criticise BKs.
This is totally false
In Advance Literature, the meaning of 'swarg ke rachieta' (in the picture of Lakshmi-Narayan) has been wrongly interpreted. PBKs clain that Lakshmi & Narayan both are creators (rachieta) of heaven (swarg) & 'to' indicate that there are two creators of heaven, the term 'swarg ke rachieta' is used. Here 'ke' indicates that there are more than one creators. If there is only one creator (ShivBaba), the word 'ka' may be used. So the word 'ke' indicates that Lakshmi-Narayan (who are two in number) are creators of heaven & not ShivBaba (who is one oh number). This is PBK thinking.
Those are a few of so many examples of direct opposition to what I consider as Godly knowledge. Please open your eyes and see if it possible to make the PBK section a ... PBK section, and not an anti-PBK section. Arjunbhai and Andreybhai are constantly trying to justify the advance knowledge, and to rectify the doubts. Many of us have done so.

If someone is against the clarification, they are against Baba. Should those post stay in the PBK section or be moved?

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Post by aimée » 21 Jun 2007

Yes Mr Green,

they are valid, but I would not personally go to the BK section and do the same type of posts they are doing here. So why don't they do them in the freshly made section made for this purpose? I am sure you and others would be happy to chat with them there.

Wouldn't you?

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Post by bansy » 21 Jun 2007

This is a difficult decision, by admin.

The key to all this is the Murli.

I assume that shivsena and new world have been using actual Murli points to back up their opinions and churning. It would be better if they would provide dates and references so that they could be checked by a PBK via ShivBaba (Virendra Dev Dixit) or by a BK (in Murli team) for the validity. In some cases they have. The Murli points given by Arjunbhai are a testimony to the accurate and uniform method the PBKs are studying.

I do not have such access to the Murli points quoted, so thus I do not comment much on their (shivsena/new world) contributions. This does not mean I disagree or agree with them, it simply may not be necessary for my intellect as I am able to keep my own thoughts pure to what is pure inside me (internal) and not what is outside (external). If the Murlis are on the website, then any Murli points can be checked, discussed. Those who have the Murli and expect others to listen to their opinions and views are also going up the creek since no-one can validate what they say. Asking a PBK to ask ShivBaba (Virendra Dev Dixit) is unreliable, they can go and ask ShivBaba (Virendra Dev Dixit) directly if what they say is truth.

This forum is limited unfortunately. I wouldn't worry about anything that is on this forum. Anyone with a clear intellect will find the study which is appropriate to them, as is set in the drama.

Actually, Sister Aimee, anyone with the right PBK intellect will be able to read between the lines. But we have to ask admin (who is God on this forum 8) ), so we are all putting him/her on a rather uncomfortable spot at the moment.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 21 Jun 2007

aimée wrote:What I mean, is that some post are obviously aimed to systematically undermine the PBK knowledge.
It is a pretty heavy accusation to make, frankly ... do you know which group they belong to?

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Post by john » 21 Jun 2007

Aimee, I would be careful because the others may have studied for a lot longer than you and have access to many more Murlis. (Of course, that doesn't mean they are right).

Now, what I mean to say is they may have spotted things that a beginner in advanced knowledge is yet to come up against. It is the same in BK knowledge that those of many years experience can see from a different view point what is going on.

If you are saying they are wrong in the points you outline, then you have to be able to defend what you claim rather than just say, 'it is wrong'. As bansy points out shivsena and new world may have Murli points to back up what they are saying.

You may have a sticky job because as has been pointed out Virendra Dev Dixit himself makes no claim to be the Chariot of ShivBaba, unlike Brahma Baba did.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 21 Jun 2007

Who actually moved the posts?
Albert Einstein wrote:Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions.
I note that this issue did not arise from either my Andrey bashing or Shivsena's despatching of Arjun off to Virendra Dev Dixit every 5 minutes. The straw appears to have broken the camel's back after new_world.

If you put me on the spot, I would say that Shivsena is a PBK or sorts, alebit he has his own issue that he wants to investigate. But I would, and have, openly questioned where your, new_world, loyalties are ... merely because you avoided clearly stating it. It is no big issue here. You can be an independent BK, PBK, ex-PBK, PBK-turned-BK again. I would really appreciate you opening up personally.

I think Shivsena is actually a good advertisement for the PBKs. I am sorry to say but moreso that the baseball bat approach andrey uses.

Personally, I would prefer that the new Splinter group forum was kept for Splinter Group issues only and that the Splinter groups can be clearly represented. I would not like a PBK to systematically undermine other parties knowledge by filling the new forum full of unwanted PBK issues that belong in the PBK forum.

The PBK forum should not just be for entrance level PBK propaganda. I have long asked that PBKs got to work and documented/presented the basic outlines of the Advance Course. Of course, there are and are going to be, many things the PBKs are hiding too ...

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Post by arjun » 22 Jun 2007

Dear all,

Om Shanti. I have just now gone through the discussion in this thread. Although Sister Aimee has a right to voice her opinions, but I personally feel that there is no necessity to move topics that appear to be against the PBKs or Advance knoweldge or Baba Virendra Dev Dixit. In fact, the more the number of such topics, the more it shows the extent of freedom that all members enjoy on this forum. The more the PBKs discuss such topics respectfully, the greater would be the confidence of fellow-members that they would enjoy.

As regards Shivsena Bhai and New_world Bhai, I have no objection to their posts. I was only put off by some comments made by Shivsena Bhai which were unrelated to the topic. Otherwise, I have no hesitation in voicing my opinion on the views expressed by him and I have been doing that. Wherever I do not have an answer, I consult ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) and post His replies whenever they are received. Since that takes time, the delay should not be construed that I am angry with Shivsena Bhai or any other member.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by paulkershaw » 22 Jun 2007

With respect to all, I feel that this is a public forum and should not be restricted to any particular group's requirements, the BrahmaKumari.info home page introduction says it all.

If any 'member' feels they want what is essentially a private forum then would it not be best to create one on their particular organisations own website and then this can have its own policed processes in place?

Fair comment is probably fair game.

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Post by aimée » 22 Jun 2007

Then if it is the opinion of the majority, fair enough. However, for me it defies the purpose of having different sections for different groups.

For me the PBK section is for anyone to understand what the Advance Party is. In the present situation, I doubt this is possible. How does a newcomer find his way in this labyrinth of different churnings? As I said in an earlier post, the advance knowledge is already very intricate. The ones who don't agree with the advance knowledge and what the PBK think are free to express their opinion in their section, the non-PBK section.

This is the only public site that allows the PBK to show who they are are to invite anyone to understand what the Advance Party is, to give the opportunity for BKs to realise that God is still here in another Chariot, and maybe to go and do the bhatthi to see Him.

This place has become a battlefield with words, however disguised they may appear. This is totally counterproductive. I totally understand that most of the members enjoy this battle and they want to keep it. But please try to look at it from the other angle. Especially because it is not prohibited for anyone to go against PBK knowledge. They just are gently invited to move to a move appropriate section.

Is it the same opposition in the BK section, freely accepted? May be I should have a look at it ...

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