Who is the God of Gita - Krishna, Ram or Shiva baba?

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Post by bansy » 01 Oct 2006

shivsena wrote:The PBKs are trying to reveal bindi ShivBaba in the body of Veerendra Dev Dixit. Now my dillemma is this, how is going to be done in future and does bindi ShivBaba really need to be glorified? Supreme Soul Shiva has never experienced any body-consciousness in the full cycle of 84 births in 5000 years, so how can He be revealed through a body? Or does Father Ram needs revelation and glorification in the end as he reaches the 100% incorporeal stage when ShivBap and Rambap merge together and become living ShivBaba!
Dear Shivsenabhai,
I have been watching over this thread, and a few others recently by you, to get an idea of your views. Fully appreciate your efforts for the unlimited understanding.
In summary, are you suggesting that until the "final revelation" takes place (which is the merging of ShivBap and Rambap), Father Shiv is sitting "behind the scenes" and so we brahmins (BKs or PBKs) who are still body-conscious cannot actually fully know the exact form of Father Shiv, except to "assume" with our best efforts that He is a point of light and keep practising this form of remembrance and keep churning deeper on the Murlis. After all, no-one can "prove" His form, how he truly comes and goes in chariots, yes we may have very deep divine feelings and even visions, but this is all we have to hold onto, and so in a sense any brahmin who say they know or have found God has actually fallen into "Bhakti". I am not saying what we brahmins currently doing is wrong, but saying we will only know the real truth (revelation and glorification) only when we continue to study right up to the end because if we fully knew who Father Shiv is now, then there is little purpose for us to be here in this world. When we are truly soul conscious, we have no thoughts of body consiousness or even about being points of light. We just have to be. Yoga is then not 4 or 8 hours but 24 hours.

Your overall view ? Sorry it is hard to put down on paper. Please correct as much of my above remarks as you wish. Maybe even the things were are discussing here are being reported back to Rambap who, as it suggests, is still learning, and Rambap will still have to merge with ShivBap later to become ShivBaba (via body of Virendra Dev Dixit). In a sense, Rambap is still learning with us, and at the end we will all go home to the other shore together. Relevation takes place in a second, so how can some souls think they get the revelation yesterday and others tomorrow.

My understanding is the realisation of Father Shiv is accurately gotten by developing the relationships with Father Shiv, and until we are truly equal to One, then we can recognise Him. Otherwise, we are still "guessing" albeit close guesses. Murlis remind us "Do we like this study", it does not say "You can stop studying now".

Regards
Bansy

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Post by shivsena » 01 Oct 2006

John wrote:Yes, I see your point, but it is only God who is remembered by all the souls of the world, Rambap is only known and understood by diety/Hindu religion. Outside of India Ram is hardly known.
Dear john Bhai.
Very true--God is remembered as light in all religions---so when Rambap and ShivBap become one single entity, then this present body of Virendra Dev Dixit will not be visible and only the aura of light around the body will be visible and this scene will be etched in the memory of souls who will then propagate this fact in the next Kalpa in Bhakti in all religions that ''God is light".
John wrote:I don't think it's the space which is the main issue, but being suspended in a state of purity in the Brahm element.
I think when the soul seperates from the body, both become inanimate and then the question of purity and impurity does not arise. Only when the soul becomes embodied that the terms 'impure soul' and 'pure soul' can be addressed; This brings us to an interesting discussion as to what a soul really is???

Is soul really a point of light (which cannot be seen by any physical means) or is it a spark of eternal energy (consciousness ) which is represented on paper by a point (as one cannot represent energy on
paper by any symbol)--

My view is that, when we say soul is a point of light (jyoti-bindu-atma) what we really mean is that
only when we have jyoti-light ( ie. true ishwariya Gyan-light of knowledge) only then we can attain bindu-roop stage(soul conscious point-stage-where mind and intellect merge together ) and when the mind and intellect merge together then we become a souls while being embodied(as in Golden Age and Silver Age); and when the mind and intellect run in the opposite directions (as in Copper Age and iron age ) then the consciouness-spirit within us identifies itself differently and we become bodies.
This is what i think.

OK---Om Shanti----- shivsena.

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Re: soul separation

Post by shivsena » 01 Oct 2006

ex-l wrote:I really appreciate the scientific rigor you are bring into this forum shivsena. Perhaps you can explain how Paramdham can be "infinite" ... except for a little blob cut out for the material universe. Surely "infinite" minus a bit is a finite.
Dear Brother ex-l.

Thanks for your views.

I firmly believe that science and spirituality has to complement each other for a perfect understanding of Godly knowledge and vice versa; in fact with this wonderful Godly knowledge we can integrate all the subjects of the world viz. history, geography, religion, astronomy, astrology, and all of them will meet at a point and will be complementary to each other; this is the most amazing part of this wonderful Godly knowledge.

OK shivsena.
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Post by john » 01 Oct 2006

Shivasena wrote:I think when the soul seperates from the body, both become inanimate and then the question of purity and impurity does not arise. Only when the soul becomes embodied that the terms 'impure soul' and 'pure soul' can be addressed; This brings us to an interesting discussion as to what a soul really is???
The subject of soul being inanimate without a body came up in another thread.
arjun wrote:Baba has said that a soul without a body is like a non-living object.If Shiva is not permanently in Veerendra Dev Dixit, then he will have to be entering into other bodies or not functioning as a non-living object. Shiva doesn't have a subtle body of his own, so it sounds like he will always have to reside in someone or others body whilst here in the Confluence Age.
I was try to understand that if Shiva is a soul, like all other souls, then it would be the same conditions. When we die we may get subtle bodies till our next birth if that is not immediate. So Shiva not having his own body would also always have to be in anothers body to function, is the logical understanding.

I made another point that if there is no experience in the Soul World. then how does anyone, including Shiva know what it is?

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Post by shivsena » 01 Oct 2006

John wrote:I was try to understand that if Shiva is a soul, like all other souls, then it would be the same conditions. When we die we may get subtle bodies till our next birth if that is not immediate. So Shiva not having his own body would also always have to be in anothers body to function, is the logical understanding. I made another point that if there is no experience in the Soul World. then how does anyone, including Shiva know what it is?
Dear john Bhai.

You have raised the exact queries that i have been raising in yahoo forum and discussing this with my other pbk brothers. If Shiva is a soul like any other soul then he should remain active (chaitanya-live) all thruout the 5000 years cycle and the only way it can happen is by remaining in the body of Ram's soul (chaitanya Paramdham) and not going to some jad Paramdham above.

This would then give an exacting explanation to two queries: one is that Shiva (zero) is supposed to be ever-pure (totally devoid of body-consciousness) and if a soul has to give the proof of being ever pure then he should be within the body for 5000 years without being body-conscious in any percentage while being an observer (sakshi) in the body of Ram; and not by leaving this universe and resting somewhere in Paramdham.

Secondly if ShivBap is the chaitanya seed of the human Kalpa tree then ShivBap along with Rambap should always be together on this earth for 5000 years; only when he has to recite the Murlis then he takes the help of the body of Dada Lekhraj in 1947(as per drama) to give the Godly versions; once this is over in 1969, then he again comes back to his permanent abode in Ram's body. This what i feel.

If ShivBap goes to Paramdham for 5000 years in every cycle then it raises more queries and more complexities than it solves; so truth has to be simple from all perspective.

shivsena.

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Gems of knowledge (Murli Points) for churning.

Post by shivsena » 05 Oct 2006

Dear bk and pbk brothers.

I am starting a new thread whereby i will be sharing some important Murli points which have neither been clarified by advance knowledge nor churned upon by most bk and PBKs.

It has been said in Sakar Murlis: "Father shows son and son shows Father". I would like to know from my brothers who is the "Father'' and who is the ''son'' and how both show each other.

Also it has always been said in A. Vanis : ''Always follow Father". Who is this ''Father'' whom we have to follow?

Views are awaited.
shivsena.
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Post by andrey » 06 Oct 2006

Dear brother,
The son is the soul of Krishna. Through the soul of Krishna, the Supreme Soul shows the Father Prajapita (“that Father”). Then through the soul of Prajapita (Ram) The Father shows the son – Krishna – in a female form.

The Father is the Supreme Father Shiva. His only son is one Prajapita. ? The Supreme Father shows /reveals/ his only son Prajapita and the Prajapita shows the Supreme Soul Shiva.

We have three Fathers that we have to follow. One is the Incorpreal Father Shiva. We have to follow him in his stage. Second is the Father of Humanity Prajapita. We follow him in stage also, we become ancestors souls. The third is the spiritual Father Brahma Baba, we follow him in stage also, we achieve subtle stage and follow him in his doings. He is in fact big Brother, but big brother is given respect as if to the Father.

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Post by shivsena » 06 Oct 2006

Andrey wrote:Dear Brother,
The son is the soul of Krishna. Through the soul of Krishna, the Supreme Soul shows the Father Prajapita ("that Father"). Then through the soul of Prajapita (Ram) The Father shows the son - Krishna - in a female form.
Dear brother andrey.
Where is the soul of Krishna now in the female form???
Andrey wrote:The Father is the Supreme Father Shiva. His only son is one Prajapita. ? The Supreme Father shows /reveals/ his only son Prajapita and the Prajapita shows the Supreme Soul Shiva.
First you say that son is Krishna and then you say Ram is Father; now you say Shiva is Father and son is prajapita Ram; that is what is want to know how does prajapita reveal that shivbindi is inside his body.
Andrey wrote:We have three Fathers that we have to follow. One is the Incorpreal Father Shiva. We have to follow him in his stage. Second is the Father of Humanity Prajapita. We follow him in stage also, we become ancestors souls. The third is the spiritual Father Brahma Baba, we follow him in stage also, we achieve subtle stage and follow him in his doings. He is in fact big Brother, but big Brother is given respect as if to the Father.
How is brahma the spiritual Father; please expand; how is he big brother also at the same time; how do we achieve the subtle stage??? like him?? (is it by leaving the body??) Just a bundle of confusion and ambiguity. (it is not as simple as you think)

shivsena

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Post by andrey » 06 Oct 2006

Dear brother,
The soul of Krishna plays the part of Jagadamba is a female body.
First you say that son is Krishna and then you say Ram is Father; now you say Shiva is Father and son is prajapita Ram; that is what is want to know how does prajapita reveal that shivbindi is inside his body.
Yes, maybe one of these is not correct, however it is also said for us that we can reveal the Father with our stage. So maybe it won't be "Saying I am Shiva", or "I have a bindi in me". Shiva gets revealed only through the knowledge he speaks that this knowledge cannot be known of come by anyone else. Now, how do you accept advanced knowledge. Whom does it come from? Did it came from Shiva in the beginnig. When exactly Krishna started teaching and Shiva hid himself?
How is Brahma the spiritual Father; please expand; how is he big Brother also at the same time; how do we achieve the subtle stage??? like him?? (is it by leaving the body??)
He is Big brother, but he used to play a part of a titleholder Prajapita also, in the absence of the ral Prajapita. Subtle stage is possible in the body - this is the angelic stage, it is the stage of the mind-intellect and in the quoted passage it is explained.

What do you think about the beginning of the Yagya?

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Post by john » 07 Oct 2006

Shivsena wrote:Also I do not believe that there is anything like Paramdham (golden red world) in outer space where ShivBap goes and rests for the next 5000 years;
Can you tally your understanding with the below mentioned Murli extracts

Revised Murli 04.03.04

"... God speaks: Now you children must also remember the home. The Father only tells you about the home and the kingdom. Children, you also understand about where the home of souls is and what the soul is. You have also clearly understood that the Father has come to teach you. Where does the Father come from? From the supreme abode. It would not be said that He comes from the pure world in order to create the pure world; No. The Father says: I have not come from the pure world of the Golden Age. I have come from the home, the home that you children came down from to play your part. I also come from the home every 5000 years, according to the drama-plan. I reside in the home, in the supreme abode ..."

Revised Murli: 06.03.04

"... Only you children understand when there is peace in the element of light and in this world. Peace will be experienced in the land of the element of light, and there will also be peace and happiness here in this world. This world is distinct from the element of light. The element of light is beyond the moon and the stars. There is nothing of this world there. It is called the world of silence. You leave your bodies and go into that world of silence. Children, also remember that and so you are now preparing yourselves to return there ..."

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Post by shivsena » 08 Oct 2006

John wrote:Can you tally your understanding with the below mentioned Murli extracts
"....God speaks: Now you children must also remember the home ... I reside in the home, in the supreme abode. ..."
Dear john Bhai.

When one is reading the Murlis one must first keep in mind "who is this personality who is reciting the Murlis; It is ShivBap - a point of light so subtle, who has no dimensions and who cannot be seen by these physical eyes and cannot be measured by any physical means; so keeping this thing fact in mind it means that whatever He says will also be very subtle and has to be understood by the intellect only; so when ShivBap is a non-physical entity then would he describe a physical world existing outside this universe or would he try to describe a world which is beyond physical and can only be seen by the third eye of knowledge; Also in Murlis Baba says "behad ka bap behad ke bachon se behad ki baat karte hain", (the subtle Father talks about subtle things to his subtle children) but we children instead of understanding his words by the intellect we take it in literal sense that He is describing a physical world.

So when He is talking about his home; it means that he is not talking about jad Paramdham but is hinting at Ram's body who in the end becomes "Tower of peace", Tower of purity" and "Tower of silence" (as Virendra Dev Dixit's body becomes the immortal Chariot) and becomes his supreme abode.
john wrote:... Only you children understand when there is peace in the element of light and in this world ... Children, also remember that and so you are now preparing yourselves to return there ...'
Then you have asked about the element of light: it means that only when there is true light of knowledge then one can experience peace, happiness and silence. One has to take everything in a subtle sense and not in the literal sense. If one takes it in the literal sense then what is the difference between an enlightened soul and a ordinary soul. Also it has been said that the inner world is more bigger and larger than the outside world. Everything rests in the mind and not outside; this will be proved in the end.

This topic of Paramdham is very interesting and very deep and can be best discussed face to face. This is what i sincerely feel.

shivsena.

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Post by andrey » 09 Oct 2006

revised Murli 15.1.04;

"... ShivBaba’s Birthday is worth diamonds. God Himself, the Highest on High is the Bestower of Salvation. How can theer be praise of anyone else? People praise the deities, but it is only the one Father who makes them into deities ..."

ShivBaba’s birthday we know is called Trimurti Shiv Jayanti. And what do you tell? That the second personality is only a deity. He is not the Father.

" ... You souls know that only the one is our Father and thet He also gives us teachings ... "

It is the Father who gives teachings, not the child. Which Father? The corporeal Father Prajapita or the incorporeal Father Shiva It is the incorporeal Father Shiva who teaches the study to become incorporeal

" ... You children know that this is the most auspicious CoA. Some remember this whereas others don’t They forget it. Even if you remember this much, the mercury of your happiness will remain high. If you remember the Father in the form of the Teacher and Guru, then too, the mercury of your happiness will remain high ... "

Which form is the form of Father, Teacher and Satguru. It is one form that is present in front of us now in the CoA.

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Post by john » 09 Oct 2006

Dear Shivsena

Of course you may be correct in your analysis of Gyan.
But, why does ShivBap speak in so much code?
If he has come to enlighten us, why would he have so many things open for interpretation?
Is he not capable of plain speak?
ShivBap has been called the solicitor of solicitors, meaning he comes to make things easy.
If he meant supreme abode was in some Chariot why not say it?
Have you ever discovered a Murli point which indicates at all that supreme abode is the Chariot?
so when ShivBap is a non-physical entity then would he describe a physical world existing outside this universe or would he try to describe a world which is beyond physical and can only be seen by the third eye of knowledge
Soul World or Brahm element is not a physical world, where has it ever been said Soul World is physical?
One has to take everything in a subtle sense and not in the literal sense. If one takes it in the literal sense then what is the difference between an enlightened soul and a ordinary soul
OK even if you take the quote from Murli in a subtle sense how do you explain it all in a subtle sense, because really you have only extracted one point from the paragraph ... so how do the whole paragraphs of Murli I've quoted work in a subtle sense?

Plus also I think you need to explain what happens to all souls at the beginning of Satyug, because if there is under 1 million bodies, where do all the souls go? Without this explaination your theories are not complete.

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Post by shivsena » 09 Oct 2006

John wrote:Of course you may be correct in your analysis of Gyan.
But, why does ShivBap speak in so much code?
If he has come to enlighten us, why would he have so many things open for interpretation?
Is he not capable of plain speak?
ShivBap has been called the solicitor of solicitors, meaning he comes to make things easy.
If he meant supreme abode was in some Chariot why not say it?
Have you ever discovered a Murli point which indicates at all that supreme abode is the Chariot?
Dear john Bhai.

If ShivBap did not speak in code and he spoke in simple language then there would be no exam and the words "numberwar purusharth anusar'' would become redundant; just apply the lokik logic of the study of a subject to the study of Godly knowledge; exams are taken to give marks according to your performance; similarly ShivBap has to make the rosary of 108 Gyani tu atma ki mala and so he has to speak in code; then whosoever understands the nearest to the truth will be the topmost position of the mala (this will be revealed only in the end when Ram ShivBaba comes on the scene).

As regards the Chariot; ShivBap again has given many hints in many Murlis about the chaitanya Paramdham (Ram's body) and not jad Paramdham; He has said many times about"sweet silent home"; now which is this sweet silent home; is it jad Paramdham above?? (what is so sweet about it??) or is it the final nirakari stage of Ramshivbaba which will be sweet to all of us and all PBKs are trying to achieve this stage; is it not??
OK more later.

shivsena.

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Post by shivsena » 09 Oct 2006

John wrote:Soul World or Brahm element is not a physical world, where has it ever been said Soul World is physical?
Dear john Bhai
Yes; that is what i am trying to say; ShivBap spoke about a spiritual world and first the BKs interpretated it as a physical world at the far end of the universe and drew diagrams about the same, showing the universe in the center and then the Subtle Region and then the golden red coloured Paramdham; and now the PBKs are propagating the same thing without thinking about the subtle meaning of ShivBap's mahavakyas. I have a very sincere inner feeling that the whole knowledge which we (BKs and PBKs) have interpretated during the shooting period will change completely when Ramshivbaba appears in His 100% nirakari stage in the near future and starts giving true Gita knowledge in very simple terms. (Truth is simple not complex)
john wrote:OK, even if you take the quote from Murli in a subtle sense how do you explain it all in a subtle sense, because really you have only extracted one point from the paragraph ... so how do the whole paragraphs of Murli I've quoted work in a subtle sense?
plus also I think you need to explain what happens to all souls at the beginning of Satyug, because if there is under 1 million bodies, where do all the souls go? Without this explaination your theories are not complete.
I can take each and every word and explain the subtle meaning but it will take some time. As to where the souls go after Destruction, this is a very deep topic and will require a face to face discussion as i cannot put my thoughts on paper.

shivsena.

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