Andrey

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bansy
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Post by bansy » 03 Jul 2007

If you cannot tolerate somone else its your own weakness.
I agree with this. However, this could be seen as an excuse.

This forum is as open as free as it can be, and thus so far anyone has been able to post whatever they want. The moment barriers are to be put in place, clashes occur. The only ones who seem to be having problem will be the ones who are not sharing. Sharing does not work when the other person does not accept, in a forum that acceptance is in the form of listening. We can refuse to listen to another, which also means we refuse to share. This forum is an instrument.

This forum is about sharing, thus it is about giving and receiving respect. There are strong opinions and most of us are tolerant and patient in this. However, there should be a sense of conduct in a public forum, you cannot simply think this forum is yours alone. This forum is going out to millions around the world, your actions and words is being heard by many and they may not be as tolerant as the members here. Thus can produce a disservice to yourself and to the family you belong. The least of one's problem should be that of another member who has taken that courageous step to speak out, what you offer in this forum goes to a broader audience who are simply tuning in and looking up (or down?) to you.

Everything is your choice to do, but if you were BapSaman, then would Baba refuse any situation and any email or post, easy or hard? Would Baba complain ?

I agree we are all human and not quite BapSaman, but again that's another excuse for Gyani souls. There are no comfort zones for elevated souls. A doctor heals an injured person with the same conviction whether the patient is Hitler or is Gandhi. Or an assassin will kill with the same conviction whether Hitler or Gandhi.

I enjoy (Bros/sister) Shivsena's, Andrey's, ex-l, new world's, Aimee's, John's, etc, posts equally, and extend a warm hand to newcomers who can be confused about how to participate in a forum. I was a little startled by pbkdivya's first posts, but realise that she will come round in good time to offer more for the rest of us. Since the only loss will be his/hers and not mine, so there's little to worry about. We have to be always ready to hear good news and bad news. I have and am learning much from this forum thanks to all the people here.

I do hope people who call themselves freely as "Brothers" and "Sisters" really mean this.

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Post by pbkdivya » 03 Jul 2007

john wrote:A Brother was pushed to the point of losing his cool under your constant provocation. Yes, it is not right for someone to be hit and others who don't know the circumstances to join in. That is why I was explaining the situation to Divya, so he/she would know better whether to join in or not without knowing the whole story
Dear john Bhai,

I am aware of the whole situation and i have been reading the views from the beginning. You know him through the forum only, but I know him personally since 1997. Also I was posting my views in the xbkchat forum till they close it. What arjun has mentioned regarding quite a number of PBKs refused to share their views or post their views because of shivsena's sarcasm comments is accurate. They rather withdraw quietly than being offended by shivsena's sarcastic manner.

When i went to India last year, i met few foreign PBKs from London. They were telling to me that they feel offended by shivsena's sarcasm in his replies to their postings so the best way to avoid any further annoyance is to withdraw from the forum. Everything has a limit and he has gone overboard with his offensive remarks. I admit that i responded sarcastically to his offensive remarks. It is just like tolerating shivsena's insults all the while and then the patience snaps, then it will be an eye for an eye.

Om Shanti,
divya.

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fluffy bunny
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Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Jul 2007

pbkdivya wrote:When I went to India last year, I met few foreign PBKs from London. They were telling to me that they feel offended by shivsena's sarcasm in his replies to their postings so the best way to avoid any further annoyance is to withdraw from the forum.
Just one thought for you Divya.

although you have only made a few posts, already you are chatting away making public personal identities, previous relationships and matters relating to other individuals. Could I ask you perhaps to check with the other the parties as they may not wish those matters to be made public or themselves identified in such a manner? Its just a basic courtesy for other forum members.

Also, and this is for andrey too, it would help if folks stuck "on topic". If everyone checks back to the the title of the discussion thread and attempts to relate their posts back to it, it will help keep the forum focused. For example, this topic is on Andrey and you are off chatting about shivsena.

As far as andrey goes, I am serious about him going and doing some basic, down to earth service of some sort or another for his own good. The internet is obsessive at the best of times and pushing angry electrons down copper wires at another is pointless at the best of times.

Apart from the partners of BKs, abused BKs, or ex-BKs, whom I support, no one really comes here to be "served" as such. Or beaten on the head with inanities, as it feels. They come here to troubleshoot problems, examine intricate details, raise uncensored questions, examine theory ... how would you define that?

So, come on andrey, tell us about the service you are doing and how it is going? Get practical not theoretical.

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Post by bansy » 03 Jul 2007

eye for an eye
Dear Sister pbkdivya,

Regardless of how Shivsena Bhai's view, but is that also your view? Is Shivsena Bhai not another soul? I am not taking any sides, for whatever reason Shivsena Bhai is, it is he who has to change? If he has enabled potential members to withdraw from the forum, then who is being changed? If any poster "butts" into one's thread, you have a choice to ignore or to face it. Again, would Baba turn his face away in disgust?

This is only a forum. You have met Shivsena Bhai in person, which actually puts you in a better vantage point. Sometimes Shivsenabhai would ask a PBK to ask Baba, but he fully knows well he can ask Baba directly if he wishes. The same applies to me and to anyone else. Because of practicalities, this forum is an instrument for us.

Frankly sarcasm doesn't hurt. There is a lot of sarcasm in this world. It is the misunderstanding of Baba's trust as his child which hurt.

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Post by john » 03 Jul 2007

ex-l wrote:So, come on andrey, tell us about the service you are doing and how it is going? Get practical not theoretical.
Yes, Andrey, go forth and multiple the PBKs. With your enthusiasm and devotion, you should be able to reel them in.
ex-l wrote:no one really comes here to be "served" as such.
Besides, service is best done without being forced down the throat.
Divya wrote:They rather withdraw quietly than being offended by shivsena's sarcastic manner.
I thought PBKs were kings with the power to face?

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Post by arjun » 03 Jul 2007

John wrote:I thought PBKs were kings with the power to face?
John Bhai,

Sorry to interrupt, but, PBKs are not kings but only sevadharis (servers). Of course, it can be assumed that they have the sanskars of Kings, but now they are only sevadharis. Being a King has been wrongly interpreted by a honourable member of this forum to mean using the weapons of inappropriate words in the name of 'power to face situations'? The 'power to face situations' comes into play when one is knowledgeful, but faces an ignorant person, especially in unforeseen circumstances. Here, everyone has studied the Murlis and Avyakt Vanis very deeply, where it has been clearly directed that alokik Brahmins (BKs/PBKs) should be double-non-violent. Violence is not necessarily through bodily organs, but also through words, vision and thoughts. There are many Avyakt Vanis and Murlis which contains detailed account of the kind of speech that is permissible for the Brahmins (BKs/PBKs). Baba says that one must definitely speak the truth but one should not lose hosh (consciousness/awareness) in josh (excitement).

Even if the PBKs say that they have the sanskars of Kings, what does the 'power to face' mean? Does it mean 'en eye for an eye' as someone has mentioned or does it mean tolerating all the insult and answering the offending member respectfully all the time? Since both the options are either not permissible or viable, is it not better to remain silent instead of adding fuel to the fire?

Imagine a circumstance where a Dadi or BK teacher loses her temper at a public place because of the questions raised by a PBK, will she be forgiven in the same manner as an honourable PBK member of this forum is being forgiven? Surely in the above circumstance, concerned Dadi's/teacher's behaviour would also have been dissected minutely on the basis of the manual of Shrimat, is it not? This does not mean that I am advocating any action against the PBK member. Everyone would be happy if he joins us again. He is senior to many of us both in age, experience and knowledge and is an asset to this forum.

In the Advance knowledge, ShivBaba through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit says that in case of PBKs who teach knowledge to others, the punishment for every sin is lakh times, while for a non-teaching PBK it is thousand times, for a BK it is hundred times and for the non-BK souls it is equal (i.e. one for one). I have already committed many sins on this forum, so you can imagine the weight of my bag of sins :lol: :D :P.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by john » 03 Jul 2007

arjun wrote:Even if the PBKs say that they have the sanskars of Kings, what does the 'power to face' mean? Does it mean 'en eye for an eye' as someone has mentioned or does it mean tolerating all the insult and answering the offending member respectfully all the time? Since both the options are either not permissible or viable, is it not better to remain silent instead of adding fuel to the fire?
I think amongst other things it means the power to face criticism of what they say and not run away.

I never found Sivasena to be insulting, but open and thoughtful. Which I find a lot more tolerable than subtle digs by PBKs "If you don't understand as I understand you are from a lesser religion". Which is the answer I have seen given when no other answer can be found. To me it is a terrible misuse of knowledge and subtle power claiming. Even if ShivBaba says it, it doesn't mean others can use it as a weapon to fight off anyone they don't agree with. Is it not also that Sivasena was able to research Murli deeply and find points that backed up his ideas and PBKs were indeed frightened off? Do they want all to sit back and say "yes, yes, all you say is great"?

For the sake of clarity I will point out that I do not agree with Sivasena Bhai's point of view. I do so because in the past it may have been used to draw references of allegiance to him. Which I have not. I just don't like the idea of gaggling masses trying to silence someone because of fear and ignorance.

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arjun
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Post by arjun » 03 Jul 2007

Dear John Bhai,

Om Shanti. We could go on arguing endlessly, but apart from entertaining some souls, it would produce no other result. Avyakt BapDada has said that children are very good at becoming lawyers. I think we should sit back and contemplate on our own weaknesses and the ways to overcome them, instead of discussing others' shortcomings. Just as some of the words used by Shivsena Bhai appeared to be against Shrimat to some PBKs, indulging in discussion on an individual in a public forum is also against Shrimat. So, I would like to put a full stop to the issue of Shivsena Bhai. I think the more we discuss on him, the more difficult it will be for him to return. So, let us hope that he changes his mind and returns to discuss the knowledge.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by mr green » 03 Jul 2007

What are you lot like, hey!!!

Stop squabbling now or you won't get any inheritance :lol:.

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john
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Post by john » 03 Jul 2007

arjun wrote:So, I would like to put a full stop to the issue of Shivsena Bhai. I think the more we discuss on him, the more difficult it will be for him to return. So, let us hope that he changes his mind and returns to discuss the knowledge.
Yes, you are right we don't want to lose time and energy.

Hopefully we can steer back to more fruitful and constructive discussions. Different opinions should not be held against anybody.

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Post by pbktrinityshiva » 03 Jul 2007

i say this topic should be deleted. Its not helpful.

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Post by andrey » 12 Aug 2007

Observation of behavior of people and voicing the opinion about it is done in yellow-prеss with photos of the discreditation. Discussing of Godly knowledge is different. I understand you may have difficulties each time to sort out which part is from the Murli and which one is clarification, because this is a hard work you have taken on your shoulders.

We not only respect the Murli, but along with it we respect its clarification, and here we differ. For us this clarification is not just made by someone. If you could interpret the Murli it in your own way then i congratulate you for your abilities. For me there was a big difference studying the Murli before and studying them after i have got the advance knowledge as if a whole door opened up in my mind.

However, because it is commonly known what is the attitude of the PBKs towards the clarifications, they consider them coming from ShivBaba, so it is easy to derive that remark such as "just anyone" is intentionally used to offend. We could maintain each-others dignity by respecting their belives, and not deliberately showing disregard, in the name of the common respect. It has been mentioned many time that there is no compulsion to believe so that we can interact.

If it seems that i would like to stop any discussion then apologies and will make the attempt to not seem like this, because i have no such intention. I just would like to bring the points which i find relevant and give some explanation i find appropriate, if i also would like to lead the discussion in certain way it is because i think it should go there, but it does not mean it really need go there. Of course sometimes i may try to intentionally pull the topick away, if it is about criticising someone, or there is some cheap provocation or wrong language, accusations etc (according to my oppinion) and i believe it is something natural for anyone, but maybe there is no such need as I am not to reform the whole world. For this i apologize. It is just this situation that when someone is having a question and someone is having an answer, but somehow the answer cannot reach, some barrier cannot be overcome, like some communication problem.

You have mistakenly pointed that i don't think study of Murli is essential, this is not a correct impression you may have. Discussion regarding the matter that has happened was just because i liked to point out how it is stated in the Murlis, to receive the impression how ShivBaba has stated that one Murli is enough, Yoga is the main subject etc, from the point of accuracy. Otherwise i like the Murli very much. These collection available from 2003-2004 is only a collection i have collected when i was receiving them and i have studied them several times, along with many others which i don't have available now. I did not like to mention because it does not mean anything. Like someone comes and says i have 1000 Murlis and your mouth becomes wet and start looking with high vision. OK. have them, Baba says one Murli is enough. We should not base or change our vision due to these, but they should be based on some other spiritual principle.

If i would like to attract attention it is only because i feel i have something to say, only to the extent i have learnt, that can be valuable and fit. So far i think the problem comes with communication, listening, hearing. The problem comes because no one even likes to listen, let alone trying to understand, that's why i may have put some extra voice and effort. However you should know that for me there is no importance of whether I am right or wrong. If I am right but it does not fit OK, then this is not right. What is the need to be right if we cannot understand one another. It may become an obstacle instead. Thats why it is also a practice and check up for me, as you know I am very new to Gyan and with very little experience. There is nothing wrong in being wrong and we can resolve the issue. I would not like to reach the situation where people say "OK you are right, you are right just to make one shut up" better discuss.

Moreover Baba has not given the right to the brothers to spread the knowledge, because as you see it comes out wrong and has said that if someone does not like to listen, or does not understand we should leave. I also feel as if we speak different languages, so effort is that we just start to listen to one another, try to understand, because so far i have the feeling left that i have the answer, but somehow it does not reach, somehow i cannot explain it well, or somehow it does not strike the target, so the effort is to localize exactly the fail and neutralize it. Of course i will find it for myself in myself. Please, i would just like to appeal to you to be more tolerant and patient with me as i will make the nessesary effort to find out my mistake on my own, you wont have to mention. I just feel offense if someone is showing it to me because we should be perfect. I don't like having shortcomings, but if i have there is no need to pretend or hide them.

You have said that: Murli clarification are clarifications of Murli as spoken by ShivBaba through Brahmababa.

There is no Murli clarification spoken by ShivBaba through Brhama Baba. ShivBaba has only narrated Murlis through Brahmababa, there is no clarification of the meaning. Now what we can try to extract out of the Murli can be only our own perception, but what he has meant only he can know and tell. You may observe that the difference comes in the interpretation. Some may say interpretation is not needed. Whatever it is said than this is what we have to accept. But it is said that this knowledge is not called nectar /it is said like this in the Murli/, means nectar comes after churning. And there are many things which are not understandable in the plain Murli – without clarification. /for eg. Laksmi and Narayan are called fools, but also intelligent, then we udnerstadn that here is Lakshmi and Narayan of Golden Age who are fools and Lakshmi and Narayan of the Confluence Age who are intelligent, limited and unlimited meanings of matters, and also many other points that clarify the ambiguities which no human being so far could explain/

Depending on the point of view and there are many examples, one can say that Murlis through Brahmababa are just whatever "someone says", why should we accept, yes, yes, to whatever someone says.

It is only said that "You children will bring Paramdham in this world" in a Murli or Avyakt Vani without any interpretation as i think.

Just because someone says so we should not of course just accept, but just because someone says so we should not just deny. We should judge and find out, think and decide. For me, you know there is this song from the Murli “I'll live and die in your lane” then the Murli starts...” you children have come to become a garland arround Baba's neck”, then in the clarification it comes....”whilst living”...and it makes a lot of difference. What is the garland arround the neck of a point of light, where are his eyelids to take us with him on them, and it completely changes the philosophy. We don't have to wait to leave the body and become a deity in the next life, we aim to change ourselves here and now.

Now this is only the new knowledge that comes in the clarifications and it used not be available before. Then some naturally imbibe it and forget who has thought it and say, yes, yes, of course that it is like this, but they say like this only after and when they learn. Before we used to aim leaving the body. Its not just interpretation, it is something like new knowledge that comes out of the old one.

There is also some strong tendency expressed that that to believe is somehow wrong. To believe, to have faith is not wrong and it is not the old path, but there is blind faith and there is ... faith with knowledge. You know, you believe, there is nothing wrong, nothing old in it.

There is also nothing wrong in just repeating the points of knowledge like parrot, this is how we start. At least the song is some sweet song of knowledge, instead of being content with just listening to our own's voice. Then as children do, they repeat initially and later we may even start understanding, explaning, realizing etc. So far i feel we are at the oh ... i know ... get out ... stage as if there will be some loss in listening, narrating and discussing points of knowledge. But i understand that things should not be presented in such way, that people are not ready, do not like to listen and someone is just making them listen and complains against me have been mostly about this for which i apologise.

Problem in listening and hearing comes when we are prejudiced, that oh, i know the same one, or we have certain expectation, however it can be calculated that great part of discussions resemble offensive/defensive type, criticising/prasing etc, and very little part is truly in depth dive. When it happens some jewels may come out. I only complain when discussion becomes only play of words.

We listen to someone because we like to study and we like the study itself. We feel we are not perfect and don't have faith human beings will help us become. That's why we have desperately invested our faith in the idea that God has come in corporeal form and already there is interest out of this investment that the whole world changes for us from a world where there is no one on the top, where all fight for dominance amongs themselves, to a world where there is one responsible Supreme Soul.

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Post by john » 13 Aug 2007

Andrey

There is no understanding between us. What I post you always seem to misunderstand. For me you have too much of an 'us and them' attitude, as opposed to an all being together to find the truth healthier attitude. Someone may disagree with you, so what? Get over it, you are not God.

Rather than keep explaining myself to you and getting distracted from the focus of the threads, I feel it is best we ignore each other. I am more than happy for you to ignore my threads and comments.

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