Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

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bansy
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Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

Post by bansy » 27 Jun 2008

Does anyone know what the Mormons are and do ?

A few passed by the other day, they were polite. They call themselves Chuch of the Latter Day Saints, whilst the word "Mormon" wasn't used. Which raised suspicions, are Mormons a cult ?

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chai bhai
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Re: Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

Post by chai bhai » 28 Jun 2008

Hello. Maybe every small group is a cult. Christianity was a cult when it started too. A lot of people (and academic people too) even say that the anti-cult movement is a cult!

I found this from the Encyclopaedia Britannica ...
... a member of any of several denominations that trace their origins to a religion founded by Joseph Smith, Jr. (1805–1844), in the United States in 1830. The term Mormon, often used to refer to members of these churches, comes from the Book of Mormon, which was published by Smith in 1830. Now an international movement, Mormonism is characterized by a unique understanding of the Godhead, emphasis on family life, belief in continuing revelation, desire for order, respect for authority, and missionary work. Mormons also obey strict prohibitions on alcohol, tobacco, coffee, and tea and promote education and a vigorous work ethic.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the principal formal body embracing Mormonism, is headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, and had more than 11 million members by the early 21st century. About 50 percent of the church's members live in the United States and the rest in Latin America, Canada, Europe, Africa, the Philippines, and parts of Oceania. The next-largest Mormon denomination, the Community of Christ (until 2001 the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints), is headquartered in Independence, Mo., and had a membership of approximately 250,000 in the early 21st century.

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Re: Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

Post by fluffy bunny » 28 Jun 2008

chai Bhai wrote:Christianity was a cult when it started too. A lot of people (and academic people too) even say that the anti-cult movement is a cult!
I have never read about the anti-cult movement being analysed as a cult, even at the high of the Ted Patrick's days. Do you have any good reference to support that statement? I'd be interested to see them.

Christianity is a little problematic too. What do we call the start of Christianity? The first Council of Nicae in 325?

Personally, I do not believe in the Jesus Christ myth as being real any more that the Lekhraj Kirpalani myth (emphasis on the word 'myth', the mythic representation of whatever did happen). With Christ there are far too many obvious sources from which the myth arose. With Lekhraj Kirpalani, there are already too many anomalies and re-writes that we can securely evidence. Many more to come if and when the BKWSU cares to be honest.

Ditto all the religious founders are shrouded in myth, I mean, look at all the birth of Buddha stories ... All of these make me suspect that BapDada is up to something quite different from what he says ... because so much of it is based on even more mythic foundations.

As with Scientology, the best introduction to the Prophet Joseph Smith and the Mormon faith is South Park, of which there are copies on their website. The funny thing is that there are many similarities between all of these groups, listen/read the light descending on Prophet Smith's, the only true religion, the only saviour ... but most of all the historical re-writes and newcomers and frontliners not getting know what the whole truth until their are enculted etc. Its whacky.

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Re: Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

Post by chai bhai » 28 Jun 2008

Hello. I just found this now because you asked. Anti-Cult Group Dismembered As Former Foes Buy Its Assets and Cult deprogramming and the “Anti Cult Cult”. There are some other things I have read too but I cannot remember what they were.

My mother is a retired psychologist and still gets psychology and religious journals, so that is where I probably read them. It is so interesting, often people are the very thing that they point at others about. Sometimes governments use the word 'cult' so they can have more control over the people. Like the suppression of Falun Gong in China. Religious freedom is one of our human rights. We just have to be careful about using the term 'cult' to quickly. It is the same as labelling any group of people. This labelling leads to so many of the worlds problems, I think.

Thanks, chai

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Re: Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

Post by fluffy bunny » 28 Jun 2008

I only hope that one day the BKWSU offers the PBKs the same "religious freedom" it seems to expect from others. Perhaps then the beatings, control by intimidation, exclusions and all other cultic aspects of the Brahma Kumaris will come to an end. Unfortunately, in the meanwhile, they seem to have chose a path of creating a 'personality cult' based around their WANGS (We are Not Guru Gurus™) like Janki Kripalani. 'Dadi Bhakti' they call it inside. Closely related to 'Brahma Bhagats'.

Personally, I do not like the "c-word" simply because it is an ugly word that has been overused. I think that "cultic" is still useful and valid for defining certain activities. It is also very much part of the "American debate" which many folks have attempted to import to other nations. The USA is surprisingly tribal and cultic, one of which are the Mormons ... clean living boys that they are. Their big thing is baptising all of the world that ever lived to save their souls. They spend millions on genealogical research and even baptise Jews, Hindus and Buddhists without consent ... somehow I can see much luck for their missionaries in Islamic nations.

Chai, do you know of anyone in the cult awareness, family survival world that takes millions of dollars off followers, feeds them with false predictions of the End of the World and then exploits their fervour for money or fee labour. Do any ex-cult support groups or therapists have a huge property portfolio ... and so on? It may be hard to 'swallow' but I do not think 'one paper a general opinion makes'.

Interesting links as Rick Ross is about as "anti-cult" as you can get, and an ex-deprogrammer (in his opinion, the Brahma Kumaris are a cult) and the story of the Scientologists taking over 'Cult Awareness Network' did not surprise me at all.
It struck me that that was entirely what the Brahma Kumaris intended on doing to this website.
Falun Gong talk is headed way 'off topic' though ... of course, quote-unquote, "they are not a religion either".

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Re: Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

Post by tom » 29 Jun 2008

Chai Bhai,

I am understanding from the link above which sounds to me a sort of Beware! warning you gave in your message, that you had no time to read the past threads.Therefore i am asking ex-l and other forum members for excuse and for patience and quoting a whole post of ex-l from the last year .This post was written before BKWSU filed on 12.24 pm. September the 10th, 2007, a National Arbitration Forum domain dispute against the registrant of the BrahmaKumaris.Info domain.

Tom (not Cruise!)
Re: Cult Awareness Network Post by ex-l on 13 May 2007 You are correct. CAN used to be a one of the first and a genuine "cult awareness" organization. Scientology wished to supress its exposés and did so by personalizing its attack. A bit like some BKs are doing with any that contributes to this site. On the Wikipedia, BK Simon is casting it as "an attack site" and we as "anti-BKWSU activists". Do you relate to that?

Its a really big shame that the entire spiritual and religious debate, which should largely be left academics and practitioners, has been so distorted by "America" and Scientology. A set of polemics that have been exported all around the world by other media hounds looking for the currency of sensationalism to trade. So to that extent you are correct.

Its a shame because the words cult, sect, religion etc should have clear, impartial academic meanings, and the "cult experience" is one that should be analysed and discussed outside of both general hysteria and political correctitude. That said, Scientology is particularly crazy, money orientated and aggressive, to the point of being militarised and engaging a 'secret service'. Particularly nasty things have been done in their name. Personally, I see that more of an expression of the shadow side of America. Again a shame because there probably is something in the simple e-machine counselling.

The late Robert Vaughn Young, who handled public relations and media for Scientology for more than 20 years said,
  • "The Scientology world is a labyrinth of corporate shells that was designed to baffle all but the initiated. Add to that an arcane language and dedicated 'PRs' trained to divert and control inquiries, and it becomes obvious why few outsiders have been able to comprehend the Scientology hydra, let alone write about it."
Would it be too far off the beat to write;
  • "The Brahma Kumaris world is a labyrinth of service operations that was designed to baffle all but the initiated. Add to that an arcane language and dedicated Senior Sisters trained to divert and control inquiries, and it becomes obvious why few outsiders have been able to comprehend the Brahma Kumari hydra, let alone write about it."
Looking at the Wikipedia debacle, the removal of discussion elsewhere, the banishing and duffing up of PBKs, the hunt for VIPs, the hiding of the core teachings and fictional developments ... I think the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University ought be very careful before they end up being labelled the "Scientologists of India".

Rather than look at the Scientology debate, learn from it and avoid it ... they seem to me to be looking at the Scientology debate, learning from it and applying Scientologies methods! Or at least allowing themselves to be lead by similar human tendencies. Does the security wing have guns in Madubhan yet, or do they just rely on the India Army to provide tactical support when required?

For me, cultic behavior aside, its all about acquisition of real estate. Both physical and mental. And the agresive defense of that which has been acquired by any means. This also explains the orthodox religions' response to new religions.

It is strange to look at all the other, a-cough-and-a-wink, "New Religious Movements" and see how similar the polemics are. You have the cultsters, the ex-cultsters, the anti-cultsters and the Family of cultsters slugging it out. Around them the cult-awareness commentators and then a whole host of academics and media folk in a ring around it benefit professionally and jeering them on. Then over in the distance the 'rest of the world' wondering, "WTF?" and getting on with their lives.

Now and again someone from the 'rest of the world' wonders what is going on, wanders over and gets caught up in the "full wash and spin" cycle playing out the various parts. You could take Moonie, Aum, Scientology, BKWSU, US Marine Corp (oops), EST, FWBO ... whatever and the dynamics are pretty much identical.

When we get to make a movie of all this stuff, can I have Tom Cruise play my part?

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chai bhai
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Re: Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

Post by chai bhai » 29 Jun 2008

Thank you tom. No, I had not read the posts. I am trying to see a little bit of everything on this site and there is a lot to go through! But i am definitely a member of a strange religious group or cult, or bunch of odd balls or a group of people who do not want to be part of a group or new religious movement or old spiritual menagerie or whatever you wish to call it! But even with its warts and scabs and stuff ups along the way, I am happy. And I guess I just get on with my life, meditate and try to be a good person. It maybe even sounds too simple, but that is my life and that is what I do. And I must say that I really do like it. But I am thinking after reading everything that maybe I do not have much to say on this forum. I cannot really add anything new. Even this is not really on the topic.

Thanks for your posting Mr Cruise ;), and filling me in on everything.

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Re: Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

Post by tom » 29 Jun 2008

chai Bhai wrote:It is so interesting, often people are the very thing that they point at others about. Sometimes governments use the word 'cult' so they can have more control over the people. Like the suppression of Falun Gong in China. Religious freedom is one of our human rights. We just have to be careful about using the term 'cult' to quickly. It is the same as labelling any group of people. This labelling leads to so many of the worlds problems, I think.
Sorry for posting again, but Chai Bhai, you are full of surprises,

Your entrance to the forum was as a relaxed renunciate, a spiritual seeker full of insight and wisdom. I appreciated your humble way of approach very much. But your second checkin seems to be with a different characteristic and style, different approach to the forum, sort of assertive and stressed, not introverted, and not willing to learn from the forum. Are you sure, you haven't given your avatar to somebody else on loan ;) ?

Now I read you last post. You were quicker than me. Here is my spiritual brother Chai Bhai again. Welcome again.

Tom

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Re: Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

Post by fluffy bunny » 29 Jun 2008

As far as Mormon beliefs go ... you can trawl through this lot bansy; Criticism of Mormonism.

Chai, you probably have about the right attitude. There is a thread offering new BKs advice on how to survive the BKWSU. Perhaps you could add to that one?

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Re: Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

Post by bansy » 29 Jun 2008

As far as Mormon beliefs go ... you can trawl through this lot bansy; Criticism of Mormonism.
Thanks for this link.

It is quite an odd situation. You see, there is a likelihood I'd probably get to bump into these nice people again as one of them passes by my place to go to work. So now it is like finding them out first, a bit like some members in this forum wanting to know more about the BKWSU even though the BK(s) they know in the first place was also kind and nice to them.

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Re: Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

Post by fluffy bunny » 29 Jun 2008

If you want to ask what they are doing, why they go around in pairs, how pays and what their lifestyle is etc, it is all here; Missionary (LDS Church).

They are at least clean living boys who are paying their own way ... but who really needs missionaries these days!?! It is so 19th Century. Ain't they heard, it is all on the internet now.

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Re: Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

Post by paulkershaw » 30 Jun 2008

Did anyone know that Joseph Smith created the Mormon bible by using a Seer stone in his work? IOW, he channeled the information and then wrote it according to his perceptions at the time. Now The LDS church is mainly considered a cult following by many people because of their restrictive value systems they practice.

I was born into a Mormon household - and Bansy, I do love those lovely clean living young men with their big smiles to visit, anytime - as opposed to the 'Internet' version.

Of course, I will listen to anything they have to say, without any other agenda and a pure intention ... ;) xxx

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