BKs at Strategies for Overcoming Depression Seminars

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Re: Depression, stress, Yoga and nutrition

Post by john morgan » 30 May 2008

Hello Jayadeepan,

Everything that you have said is valid and helpful.

Please message me with your email address. I will then send you the resource that you have not yet explored.

Kindest regards,

John

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Re: Depression, stress, Yoga and nutrition

Post by fluffy bunny » 31 May 2008

Given the focus of this forum, two issues arise for me;
  • how many individual's within the BKWSU are suffering from mild mental disorders including ADHD, depression and how, if ever, are these monitored?
    are such individuals targeted or encouraged by the BKWSU, either consciously or sub-consciously, who really should be elsewhere getting help?
    are individuals having false expectations sitting waiting for Baba to cure them whilst donating money to the Brahma-kumaris?
We are remember the t-shirts or posters, "You don't have to be mad to work here ... but it helps." For me, it should be made ultimately clear that any "yogi" path is for one thing and one thing only, an Olympians' sized attempt at enlightenment or changing consciousness. Not an easy sop for all and any ails. And it is both irresponsible and unethical to market it as such.

Mental illness is no joke and there are no magic bullets either way. Fair enough. Are medicines rather than "Baba's room", are likely to work better ... possibly in acute circumstances - the old "chemical cosh" response. But there is no guarantee of finding caring and competent health care services when one needs them the most and throwing pills at a problem where there are no easy cures is too tempting for overworked doctors. Additionally, the stresses involved in dabbling with psychicism or a "spiritual path" might add problems that most doctors have no idea how to handle.

Are Eli Lilly and pharmaceutical companies "evil"? It is too big a subject to go into here but before popping a pill, try doing a Google for Prozac and suicide. Having witness individuals flip out on and coming off that particular drug myself, I would be VERY, VERY cautious in recommending it.

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Re: BKs at Strategies for Overcoming Depression Seminars

Post by jaycdp » 31 May 2008

Brahmakumaris should not need to help any person who has depression.

I do not think it is Lily's problem. Usually Prozac takes up to 6 weeks to kick in. And most of the suicide is usually within the first 2 months.

Prozac has CNS stimulatory effect like caffeine. Usually depressed clients (not even patient) have insomnia and negative thoughts. So Prozac can do harm during this time. Usually people are asked to take Prozac during the day time. And some people may need sleeping pills for first two months. People with depression are stormed with negative thoughts, so they are potential clients for suicide. The only treatment for these people who have a potential of suicide is Prozac. There is nothing in this world that help other than Prozac. There are lots of new studies they recommend Prozac for these clients.

Prozac is not another magic. It needs emotional support, good environment and educating the client. Usually during depressive episodes one is stormed with all negative thoughts.

There is good article about autism. They call it person centered plan (PCP). In American and Canadian schools they taught programing for disabled clients in the past (untill 1999). American and Canadian elite thought it is easy to program disabled people. So educated American diploma holders will write up a plan for some individual they do not even know. I had a room mate who studies for a diploma in the rehabilitation of mental illness. He was studying very hard to pass programming (this is in 2003).

Now slowly light is showering in the elite Americans, they think it is a crime for someone to control and write plan for an unknown persons life. So now they came up with a plan called person centered plan. This plan will be written by person themselves, not others.

There are idiots in India that think there is a magical treatment for autism in Canada. A family member of mine from Malaysia is a doctor who spent 50 thousand dollars going to America thinking there is magic and miracle in American treatment. Finally she became fed up and went back to where she came from.

In India, there is a saying, "in desperation you worship an idiot instead of god".

We are not yet living in a world of information. We are unfortunatley still living in the world of fear and darkness. The chief minister of Kerala went to America for treatment in 1990s, I still remember. But now a days people are seeing Americans coming to India for treatment. Now we see rich Arabs and African ministers coming to India for treatment. Perhaps Indian doctors were doing cardiac by pass surgery in the early 90s but nobody trusted them because they thought America is the best.

This is coming from a colonial past because colonial masters told them only a British doctor and British medicine is superior. People still think that is true. They will only trust an Indian doctor when a British man comes to India all the way from Britain. This is why i believe in public education. This happens in the Brahmakumari world a lot more than any other part of the world.

Depression is a chemical illness. If you are a Brahmakumari and suffering from depression, go see a doctor and get treatment.
  • poor sleep
    difficulty falling asleep
    or falling asleep all the time
    eating too much or eating too litle
    cannot concentrate on any thing (poor concentration) or easily distracted
    you get angry very quick or you do not angry at all
    you have too much libido or too litle sexual desire
    you have no interest ot too much interest
Om Shanti

Om Shanti


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Re: BKs at Strategies for Overcoming Depression Seminars

Post by john morgan » 31 May 2008

Doctors are often asked by their patients to cure what they should be curing themselves when they experience depression, anxiety worry etc. Doctors take a shot in the dark and mainly try drugs to solve these problems. Suicide and poor health are very common side effects of taking drugs. When a patient dies the doctor is not at fault, the patient was heading that way anyhow - a mere statistic! Why the medical profession does not understand that suppressing a problem does not solve it is one of life's mysteries. There are more people using Psychiatry today than ever before. Much of the pressure these quacks experience is due to long term patients that they did not cure returning for stronger doses of what did not work.

Jayadeepan obviously believes what he has been taught to say by others, that much of the learning that he has picked up in his training in dispensing psychiatric drugs can be debunked by the truth, "as you think, so you become" is very sad. The use of this phrase, so often heard in BK circles, is explained in James Allen's book. He goes into much greater detail than I heard or understood when attending BK classes

When you know there is no need to look further. It is those who do not know but think that they do are the most dangerous. The cloak of respectability that shrinks wear is being questioned today, but the good pharmacist who just reads official publications and aspires to be a doctor is of course unaware of this. It may be best to stay with ones own discipline and leave the advice to the doctors who do much good work. They will soon sort out their shabby psychiatric colleagues.

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Re: BKs at Strategies for Overcoming Depression Seminars

Post by jaycdp » 02 Jun 2008

Depression, there are two types of depression; one is polar or unipolar depression and other is bipolar depression.

Unipolar depression is due to improper NE or serotonin available in the neurotransmitters of the brain. Our brain has 100 thousands or more neuro transmitters. To think clearly and progress we need this chemical balance. Simple example would be to play cricket, soccer or to work as a clerk in a small shop. Whereas in bipolar depression, people get two stage of depression; one is mania or hightened self-esteem or depression or low self-esteem.

Unipolar depression is due to lack of NE and bipolar depression is due to too much NE( nor epineprine). Schizophrenia is due to too much dopamine and Parkinson's Disease is due to too litle dopamine in the nerve ends. These are good theories and there is lots of evidence to back up this theories.

People who go with Yoga are suffering from some kind of depression. Otherwise they do not need to look for Yoga. As far as I am concerned, Yoga is good but do not forget the root cause of depression. The root cause of depression can be body-consciousness or ego or no matter what it is, it needs to be handled before it become worse.

See your doctor and get diagnosed before seeking the brahmakumaris or any other organisation.

Om Shanti

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Re: BKs at Strategies for Overcoming Depression Seminars

Post by admin » 02 Jun 2008

Jay, your posts are very welcome on this forum but please note previous correspondence regarding spellchecking.

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Re: BKs at Strategies for Overcoming Depression Seminars

Post by jaycdp » 05 Jun 2008

Doctors do not make decision by themselves. These teachings have foundation and those foundations are real patients and double blind study. Medical science is not wrong. May be some doctors are not trained enough to handle these cases. Some people believe Jesus can cure disease, others who believe meditation or Hindu gods can cure disease. When they are desperate, they will even think any one who wears saffron or white cloth can cure disease. Some people think mental disorders are silly and god can cure it. It is false. God and religion should stay away from mental disease. These Godly people are the virus in mental disease. This includes the brahmakumaris and Christians, Muslims and Hindus.

I would give some acceptance for PBKs for dealing with mental disorder. Because PBKs respect individual's choice and they respect the individual for who they are. But if PBKs claim that they can cure mental disease, then I disagree with PBKs. Even in the case of PBKs, I have only agree with the principles of basic human right.

May be there is lots of connections with past lives in mental disorder. Even then, the only medicine is anti-psychotics or anti-depressants along with rehabilitation. During rehabilitation, the person who is very related to the client can use any of the spiritual qualities, such as patience, humility, yukti, accommodation and not talking too much (helpful to have a peacefull environment), being supportive emotionally, physically, spiritually and finacially are also very important keys.

Again, here I mentioned medication along with spirituality . This is very important. None of the chemicals are designed to cure mental disease. They are only designed to help or cope with the situation of concerns.

Let me make it clear again. Before you make a judgement about mental disorder, I have some points to add. I have a mother who was diagnosed with bipolar or schizo-affective disorder. I have an aunt who had an autistic child (which i helped her to stabilise with the least amount of anti-psychotics).

He was a 6 feet tall, 200 pound boy who does not speak, 19 and destroying everything in the house. He can have 5 to 6 violent episode of destruction and aggressive behavior every day. He could bite a person and make 3 inch deep wound (4 to 6 times a week). He punch his mother in her head whenever he got a chance and was taking .25 mg resperidal 2 tab in the morning and 2 tab in the evening. He was supposed to take 1 milligram 4 times daily (so he is only taking 1/4 of the recomended dose) and also family was such a loving family that he has never behaved once in his life time. All this happened suddenly at the age of 19. His mother was his primary care giver. Now the playmate brother and the friend's dad have become the primary care giver.

It took me 5 year to educate the family to help this boy. In this boys situation, medicine alone could not have helped because he is an autistic. Right now he is reconnected back to mother and there is one or two episodes an year. It is not easy to talk about mental illness in one chat room.

I have friends who are psychiatrist. I worked in mental hospital for one year. I took care of my mother for 10 years by myself.

I have helped another friend's child along with my psychiatrist. We have assisted the child from stopping him smearing feces in the house when he got angry. It took me 3 years to help this child. I, honestly, cleaned up after him every time he smeared, role modeled him, and proved to him that i am there for helping him. It is not easy as you think or say.

Medicine does help to help the patient. Without medicine people run away from the patient. There is no one in the world who wants to help a patient. Unless otherwise we train and invest money in rehabilitation and family reunion. It costs the government millions of dollar. No religious people can do this. It is none of religious people's business. And they should back of from this issue.

I have more experience if you want me tell you more. There is no point in talking about those experience. Theory from the book and real life practice is defferent.

So please do not talk for those people who suffer. Let them make their decision after experiencing the pill.

Om Shanti

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Re: BKs at Strategies for Overcoming Depression Seminars

Post by john morgan » 06 Jun 2008

Well Jayadeepan,

I find it very sad that "authorities" are able to destroy so many lives with their well meaning but misguided thought. You are obviously not going to read the book I have recommended earlier in this thread because you have bought into the myth that doctors are always right. Any person that does what you suggest would severely handicap their chances of living a fruitful life.

Why is it that the doctors, who are such authorities in your eyes, are still spending many millions of pounds/rupees/dollars etc each day in research? Could the reason be that despite their best efforts to date their drugs have severe shortcomings? If your answer is "Yes", why do you not see this? If your answer is "No", then doctors are very stupid aren't they?

I hope the facts are not too bitter a pill for you to swallow.

Kindest regards,

John

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Re: BKs at Strategies for Overcoming Depression Seminars

Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Jun 2008

john morgan wrote:You are obviously not going to read the book I have recommended earlier in this thread because you have bought into the myth that doctors are always right. Any person that does what you suggest would severely handicap their chances of living a fruitful life.
John ... initially I supported your position to a degree.

Germany, for example, prescribes anything from 3 to 25 times the amount of St John's Wort than Prozac (depending on whose figures you accept) and Ivan Illich's book, "Medical Nemesis: The Expropriation of Health" on 'social iatrogenesis' is a good primer to start with.

The figures for any 'mild' psychiatric treatment, whether chemical or talking are very poor and, from my point of view, utterly conjectural (... how do you feel?). 50:50 is your best odds and the medical system is thick with ill health of its own, including killing off 100,000s every year with wrong treatments, drug company corruption (see Eli Lilly et al alleged burying of contra-indicative evidence and rigging of the FDA re Prozac), drug companies testing drugs on develop nations' citizens etc, consultant's blind faith and arrogance, governmental underfunding and so on ... Illich and others have said it all so much better than I.

However ...

What the hell can James Allen offer a 200 lb autistic leaving 3" deep teeth wounds in his mother's arm!?! At that point even I start to reach for the tranquiliser dart gun. I have to utterly agree with Jay that beyond a relatively near line, its time for all the New Age stuff to BACK WELL OFF. In fact, we should ask, where exactly does everything from the New Agey stuff to Jesus casting out demons fit within "the market place".

On this forum members have documented from their own experience incidents where individuals have has psychotic/mental illnesses induced or brought upon by the Brahma Kumari's practise ... one of which I recollect actually happened in an Australia retreat and, I believe, involved Charlie Hogg carting off some man who thought he had met God and was an angel of light etc (as BKs do) ... Brother Hogg can correct me if he wishes. Another case in Japan where a women flipped out completely. I would add another incident I was party to of a women anorexic going, basically, hyper-manic and destroying her family. BKWSU, come sue me if I am wrong.

I am highly critical of the BKWSU's targeting of vulnerable individuals with false hopes and high promises. Of the case above, we do not know what happened long term. Of course, the "market place" the Brahma Kumaris and New Ager are targeting in the West ... and it is all about the market ... is not the serious mentally ill (although there was an autistic child of a BK in the early to mid period), but the "lifestyle market" of nice middle class people that might have a twinge or two, some melancholia or little emptiness inside them.

What do you or James offer the serious ill? I think you have to draw some limits on your statement or else admit you are talking about two different things entirely.

Like Jay, I have also been inside a serious mentally and physically handicapped wing of a psychiatric hospital (and not as a patient) albeit to a FAR, FAR, FAR lesser extent. I have seen how far the 'mind and body' can corrupt to forms that I found hard to consider "human", I have had friends flip ... I have also had friends flip coming off Prozac and detest it from what I have seen. But like Jay, it too re-shaped my view of the world and placed 'spirit healing' (which I also believe in with caveats) and 'lifestyle enlightment' into another place altogether.

Of course, the other targeting the BKs do is of individuals working in such environments and, until we resolve the anomalies and contradictions, I am equally unsure of that. See their foray into the Royal College of Psychiatry and hospitals in India etc. But, again ... what other support does society have to offer doctors and nurses? Its all highly complex. There does, however, need to be more dialogue between spiritualism and scientism and that is happening.

Scientism does also have limits and I feel that right now, science is as almost unable to admit its limits as spiritualists are ... however, they have sent a man to the moon and made a whole heap of new medical treatments and technologies whilst spiritualism is still, mostly, in the middle ages. And that comes from someone that has also watched some batty Christian attempt to curse out demons from someone having an epileptic fit.

Its another topic thread and, probably, well of forum but what is the Brahma Kumaris' position on Euthanasia and how does it fit in with the wonderful fruitcake mix of Karmic Laws. Frankly ... I am pragmatically "Pro".

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Re: BKs at Strategies for Overcoming Depression Seminars

Post by jaycdp » 06 Jun 2008

john morgan wrote:Why is it that the doctors, who are such authorities in your eyes, are still spending many millions of pounds/rupees/dollars etc each day in research? Could the reason be that despite their best efforts to date their drugs have severe shortcomings? If your answer is "Yes", why do you not see this? If your answer is "No", then doctors are very stupid aren't they?
John, you are not totally wrong. And I am not trying to prove you are wrong.

This issue needs to be discussed in an individual basis. And thank god, thank ShivBaba, if he can cure one person.

IF ...

jayaddeeppan

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Re: BKs at Strategies for Overcoming Depression Seminars

Post by john morgan » 06 Jun 2008

There are obvious limits. If a person can read understand and think then James Allen's book is more than useful. As for the rest, society does its best. Now the "transforming" of a person who can read understand and think into one who cannot is easily accomplished with drugs. As regards New Age stuff its really not my thing.

That Raja Yoga induces, causes or has a part in uncovering psychic and mental illness is often said on this forum. I've never mentioned before that while reading these posts I often wonder if it's the same people that give a diagnosis as drug people into an early or living death. I've never been close enough to the situations here to find out. Often the mental manifestations that people experience are processes of change. They may be a "calling" which can involve massive change. A psychiatrist sees a calling does not understand it, diagnoses it as something else and prescribes drugs. The intervention effectively kills that person not only because they are drugged but because their calling to their life's work has been muted.

A marvelous treatment for depression is to think of health, this probably sounds totally bonkers to you realists out there. The depressed person feels really bad and thinks of how they are, they believe that something is wrong with them and the doctor comes along and says "you are right, take this pill." A depressed person who is told that they are fine and are taught to think thoughts of health and happiness recovers, the deep understanding that they are in fact fine stands them in good stead for the rest of their lives. So how can they be fine if they are depressed? They are depressed because they have thought depressed thoughts and they are fine because they are accurately experiencing the effect of doing this. Think thought full of anxiety and worry and you get a similar result, but the doctor does a hatchet job.

I knew a person diagnosed as bipolar for about two months, we talked in depth at various points during that time then naturally went our own ways. Prior to our meeting they were in and out of psychiatric wards every three months or so for many years. Oddly they then stayed out of hospital for 19 months. I suspect that at some point during that time they forgot to read James Allen's book. Schizophrenics also respond well to his knowledge. The powerful drugs and overall situation that they are in have often removed any thought of recovery from their minds, they think the best they can do is forever play being the patient. Smiling and realisation are companions, I love seeing the so called "incurably ill" smile.

So far I have spoken in a very anti-drug way. The reason for this is that the prescribing of drugs is regarded as a primary treatment. There are situations where drugs, as imperfect as they are, are useful as a secondary treatment. The primary treatment should often be clear instruction in how (not what) to think and the secondary treatment should be dispensed with a.s.a.p.

Being wise is not being a smart ass. Those who are wise know how to make the best of situations. They see things as they really are and their vision includes the potential that lies latent within each of us. In the BK world BapDada is the wisest of the wise, for those outside the BK world he may be too. For those who don't agree you could do a lot worse than James Allen, if you don't even believe that then pop a pill and see. Goodnight.

Useful definition of madness : doing exactly the same thing and expecting a different result.

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Re: BKs at Strategies for Overcoming Depression Seminars

Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Jun 2008

Let us do the science then ... incidentally, the UK charity was set up to publishing its papers on such noble findings. Why don't they, or any faith based cure, "do the science"? Double blind test, prove the case.

I think you and Jay are missing each others point. I think, John, you are talking about melacholia and I agree, changing mental patterns helps. But I think Jay is talking about mental illness where the brainbox is so cross-wired you can input any new code. The hardware is faulty.

What I think the Brahma Kumaris ought to do, out of responsibility, is define the part of the spectrum of human consciousness where their involvement and exploitation is proven to be fair, responsible ... and proven to be effective ... rather than just using a splatter gun approach in the hope that some return falls into Baba's box.

And, that to me, would be sometime AFTER the individual as fulfilled their worldly darma. This would rule out mentally ill. In the old days, the Shrimat was clear. No mental illness. Whether that was pragmatism, social stigma or from Gyan, I do not know.
john morgan wrote:Useful definition of madness: doing exactly the same thing and expecting a different result.
Useful definition of mastery: doing exactly the same thing time and time again and becoming perfect at it.

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Re: BKs at Strategies for Overcoming Depression Seminars

Post by john morgan » 06 Jun 2008

With all due respect ex-I I am not talking about melancholia. Both Jay and I are talking about the same thing. I''m bringing attention to the laws of thought.

Mind is/can be the most powerful force in the universe. People read Murlis and think about them, without thought Murlis are useless. God is a Father but without thought his inheritance is beyond reach. In all walks of life, nothing worthwhile can be achieved without the proper use of thought. The BK demonstrate on a daily basis that a merely human life can become virtuous and divine.

Similarly a very sick person can heal by understanding the nature of thought and directing it well. Everyone uses thought but few recognise its potential, it can merely affect but it can also transform. We accept that many people are in lower states of mind and being. How did they get there? the ignorant use of thought! When imprisoned in the lower states of mind and being it is virtually impossible to see the heights we can reach with ... you guessed it ... thought!

Myths, when understood, can have a most beneficial effect in our lives. A good myth is a concentrated form of learning. I liken the Gordian Knot to many human conditions. How was it cut? With a sword, the sword of wisdom? did not the Golden Fleece heal any sickness? How about the Hydra which when one head was severed had seven spring up in its place? Could that be negative thought and could the torch that prevented more heads appearing be knowledge?

These are all powerful thought forms and to hold them in mind can be both inspirational and healing. I like particularly the sword of wisdom with its holy blade of light. What kind of intellect can hold these thought forms and experience their power? A clean one.

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Re: BKs at Strategies for Overcoming Depression Seminars

Post by jaycdp » 07 Jun 2008

Yes, john, the mind is powerful and I have never a question about that.

Nerves are not minds but in order to think properly, one need proper brain function. Even a person who take these medications, who does not have proper help, will go back to ground zero again. A powerful man can do it without anybody else's help, but how many powerful men are there?

Even baba says there are only 900,000 of them. So I am not worried about those 900,000. I am talking about people who are not in that category.

I am thank full for those booklet you emailed me. I think he was a great person. But how many people understand these concepts?

Om Shanti

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Re: BKs at Strategies for Overcoming Depression Seminars

Post by fluffy bunny » 07 Jun 2008

The brain is just another organ. The soul ... may ... be the commander but it commands, as jay points out, through the cerebellum and nervous system. Can the "power of thought" grow new limbs, straighten deformed one ... no, it too has limits that are not faith bound. How quickly can it transform body chemistry, rebuild nerves? If it worked ever time, the National Health would be using it. The problem is, it is not reproducible and so we have to address it limitations and be ethical about our encouragement of its as a wonder cure (see claims of curing cancer etc). Yes, it has effects, Yes, it has limits. No, BK Raja Yoga is not a wonder cure and should not be promoted as such.

Interestingly, the BKWSU (UK) was founded as a charity to publish papers (not PR) about its findings on such efficacious yogic practises. I do not think it has published one such research in 30 years of, increasingly, multi-million dollar funding. (I have seen a couple on heart related studies paid for by outside institutions).

James Allen dies at, what, 48. How many did he cure and how many have been cured since? Where is the science? Yes, inspirational poetry is good for the soul. Yes, positive thinking course are a wonderful balm for the spiritual malaises affecting the privileged castes and lifestyle consumers, but have you ever had hands on experience with a mentally disabled individual or someone suffering from a harmful psychosis?
  • What does one administer then?
On the other hand, here is an interesting story of BK mental or spiritual health care ...
BK Ram Swaroop wrote:It is Dadi [Nirmal Shanta] who taught me how to serve Yagna through our physical and mental powers. I have got a great opportunity to travel with her in aeroplanes and trains to all the main cities of India including Madhuban. As a close associate of her, I got an opportunity to serve her.

Once I saw her Kaaliroop (stern and strict form) in BKs Kolkata Museum. A well-built young man came to see the museum. While I was explaining him the spiritual knowledge, an evil soul entered into him. He angrily started beating, abusing, shouting and breaking the glasses there. I got frightened and informed Dadi about it.

She immediately came from the first floor. As soon as he saw her, he lay on the ground in the same manner as Lord Shankar is shown at the feet of Kaali Devi in the scriptures. Dadi put her foot on his chest and said, "Who are you? How have you come here?" She sternly asked him to leave instantly.

The moment he heard this, he said, "I am going. I am going." The young man calmed down within two minutes. I was experiencing Dadi as Kaali in Kolkata during the days of 'Durga Pooja' festival.
Where do they, or we, get the training to do stuff like that?

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