Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by fluffy bunny » 12 May 2008

I apologise butting in again to your conversation but nothing Dawn could have done would have warranted the maniacal depravity of what happened to her. We ought to keep such discussion tied to practical examples such as these and the multiple child abuses that happened in Madhuban and ask "why?" Not to be fobbed off with "Karma". I cannot remember BapDada ever even being asked about the child abuse victims ... that seems strange to me.

I had a friend die in Gyan "under Baba's canopy of protection" in a car crash. I, personally, know of two such deaths and I think that there have been more. Was it not in South America or South Africa? The general opinion amongst BKs that also knew the former, and were around at the time, was that it was caused by the over tiredness most BKs working in the real world and trying to keep up the full principles experience when it happened. Empty road, one other single vehicle involved. He was following the principles and doing service (I say "friend" but, of course, we were not allowed to have friends in the BKWSU as that would be attachment.) Someone that inspired great positive in my life that had nothing to do with Gyan.

Given that you have not delivered to us the nature of mechanism of this immutable "Law", it may be your equation that needs tweaking John too. I would tend to agree with Diogenes. Either the BKs' spirit guides are not God and therefore not absolute, or that for practical purposes the BKs should not persist in propagating misleading encouragements as if they WERE the unquestionable word of God. And if one saying is not truth ... as we have documented many now ... does that not reflect on all their sayings?

Humans have a tendency to filter out large amounts of evidence that does not fit their theories. Even scientist souls.

I referred to the Buddha not in a devotional manner but in that those teachings are considered the primary source of Karma philosophy, more so than general Hinduism. In those teachings, there are elements beyond our control, as there are in science. It is as if to say Karma only applies to a partial band of our experience in the same way that Newton's Laws of Motion only apply to a certain dimension and not the Quanta (which is where you are taking us with such laws or theories.

The hard, paid for science that I have been reading recently about related phenomenon points the finger at "false confidence" syndrome. For example, a new study suggests that hypnosis doesn't help people recall events more accurately - but it does tend to make people more confident of their inaccurate memories. Ditto "speed reading" does not actually make the reader more informed - but it tends to make the reader more confident that they are informed. Individuals having manic phases, such as I would label the "Honeymoond Period" tend to exhibit this.

The BKWSU is FULL of "false confidences". Nirwair favourite story of diving over the top of a trench into a hail of bullets because he knew Baba "was protecting him" is a perfect example. I would lay a bet on Dawn having been told the same and believing it. So, in such an exaggerated case, why cannot we expect a real, grown up answer? I am sorry to openly doubt the integrity of your god but, personally, I think Gulzar's trance message was a wet flannel of a sop thrown in the face of Dawn's friends and family, and other BKs.

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by diiogenes » 12 May 2008

john morgan wrote:
... The identifying of the only redeeming feature would have been way beyond me.
The only redeeming feature - so God's promise is not completely compromised otherwise. I'll clarify - my comment doesn't in any way
refer to the actual incident.

There are imponderables for me in this situation, for example exactly when were the words about "Cannot harm a hair on your head" spoken and to whom and to exactly what situation(s) ....Another imponderable could be be the possible karmic relationship between Dawn and the accused and/or any accomplice.... the content of the interaction between Dawn and the cab driver on that particular day.

John, I recongnise you don't represent the BKWSU view in this, your defense does reflect their position though.
And the 'imponderables' you mention represent the nature and circumstances BKs have been promised protection under.
As you yourself remember 'the divine umbrella of protection' then you'll need to take those other references to the same, in good faith.
They're all the same point.
On reflection your logic may need a tweak or two.
It may be I am blind on this one, John. I admit that. Baba has said we're much more clever than him.
Understanding this could be akin to a very Bhuddist paradox, 'you always have Baba's protection, except when you don't.'
I was happy in my attachment to his promise as I understood it.
To use this particular thread to further a personal agenda may be considered distasteful as who can say what effect this discussion as it stands may have on Dawn's friends or family were they to visit this forum.
I don't have an agenda. I am just wanting to come to terms with the conundrum the situation creates. And I wholeheartedly agree otherwise. I've no desire to exploit the incident. On a different note, and for a different thread, I am interested in your take on/description of 'faith in the intellect' that Baba often refers the importance of.

diiogenes

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by paulkershaw » 12 May 2008

re: "There are imponderables for me in this situation, for example exactly when were the words about "Cannot harm a hair on your head" spoken and to whom and to exactly what situation(s) ....Another imponderable could be be the possible karmic relationship between Dawn and the accused and/or any accomplice.... the content of the interaction between Dawn and the cab driver on that particular day."

This wording ""Cannot harm a hair on your head" is definitely spoken in the Murli, I remember hearing it many times but as per everything, it requires contexting correctly. However, even 'what the right context is' is open to much discussion.

Does anyone remember the 1980's story told, likened to this same oft spoke Murli point: ? - "when a train in India, carrying a pukka BK 'sister' is stopped and boarded by bandits (apparently a common occurence in India?) - and as they go through carriage after carriage, plundering and beating, the BK goes into deep Yoga and it seems that the bandits cannot seem to enter her carriage and decide to climb off....becoming fearful of the powerful light emanating from her at the time" - the story was often told in relation to the meaning of the "The Power of Yoga" of course but to my understanding at the time I "heard" that when you have 'Yoga' - not a hair of your head will be harmed.... and I beleived it, Nowadays I understand it more to be a 'vibrational' or an 'energetic' process of attraction.

There was also another similar story of a BK centre in some small villabe in India that experienced mudslides and torrential rains and the whole village it is told, gets wiped out, except for the main area of the centre where everyone has Yoga, namely 'Baba's room' is saved and remains upright, saving everyone in it too.

Is this myth and legend spreading at its best? - or is it true, and why does it work for one and not for another, does it really work if you're pukka and if you're not well ... then you could be in trouble. If any person or organisation is aware of its potential on any singular or group mentality/consciousness they have a powerful process to align with a particular beleif system.

I think its all dependant on one's belief systems in place at the time whcih thankfully seem to change over time.... for many people at any rate.

I do remember an instance for my own life however; that whilst living in a crime hotspot in South Africa and shortly after joining the BKWSU - and of course beginning to be serious about my Amrit Vela and my Yoga/meditation, that my home was virtually the only house in the hotspot area that was left untouched by criminal elements. Powerful I am eh? Or "Great is God?" The tenants that lived in a cottage on the property did not fare so good, one was shot outside in an attempted hijacking.

Ahh, the power of Yoga indeed. Maybe the question should rather become "What excatly is the Power of Yoga"...

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by paulkershaw » 12 May 2008

ex-l wrote:I had a friend die in Gyan "under Baba's canopy of protection" in a car crash. I, personally, know of two such deaths and I think that there have been more. Was it not in South America or South Africa?
The one car crash you refer to was in South Africa in the '80's. I had just joined Gyan and was becoming 'more involved'. Strangely enough, I had been invited to go with the four who lost their lives in that car crash - I turned it down at the last minute due to some "uncertainness within me" - close call, eh? The Power of Yoga indeed. But it works both ways methinks ...

Jayanti & Dadi Janki arrived very soon thereafter in terms of 'family support'. However, I was not privvy to the internal conversations at that time so cannot comment further.

My 'Yoga' (or fear of being stuck in a strange place with really strange people for a whole weekend ... !) certainly saved me but what of the four who died in that crash? I do feel that their Yoga saved them too - in some ironic way. It certainly assisted aspects of the BK 'family' here, as some 'estate money' was used to buy a new centre here and it also opened up my own more defined role within their structures too.

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Knowledge or faith?

Post by joel » 12 May 2008

ex-l wrote:The BKWSU is FULL of "false confidences". Nirwair favourite story of diving over the top of a trench into a hail of bullets because he knew Baba "was protecting him" is a perfect example.
I was going to mention this, too.

"God protects everyone except where the individual's karma intervenes" may seem contradictory, paradoxical and unacceptable to the rationalist. Christianity also promises God's protection in response to prayer and devotion, and has many adherents despite the unjust and untimely death of countless Christians. Martyrdom is a proof of faith. The martyred goes to heaven, or settles karma and goes to Golden Age.

Religious studies does not negate religion because of contradictions. Merely documents the whole.

Perhaps we could have a meta-discussion about where logic applies to discussing the BKWSU, and where we can consider it a faith-based sect. The BKWSU themselves say their practices are based on knowledge. It is unclear what, if anything, of their beliefs is certain, subject to debate and what is an article of faith. Perhaps this: "Everything we assert is certain (what could be more certain than the soul??) , except that when challenged we have the defense of faith."

Most supporters of BK spirituality on this board have that retreat. It could be a right of everyone, whatever their faith or agnosticism.

Ultimately, what the BKs have is their community, right or wrong, just as here on the forum, we have our community, whatever value judgments any participating or third party may have.

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by fluffy bunny » 12 May 2008

Paul touches on my greatest fear ... that the BKWSU has been profiting from these deaths by the way of the BKWSU system of Wills. If it has happened once, twice, three, four times ... what "innocence" is there to the system of having BKs sign their Will over to the BKWSU? A Western life insurance pay out must be a real eye popper for an Indian accountant.

I remember when the Patels first came to America, very shortly after, none of them could get building insurance because so many of them burnt their motels down. Its money for nothing. Now what happens if those car crashes WERE caused by the typical overtiredness that we suffered? I would say too that Dawn was probably not operating at her best coming off longhaul flights.

I think that, of course, everyone has a right to faith ... IF it is presented as just that with a deep honest, e.g. "I cannot and do not say this is true but it gives me comfort or I am experimenting with it right now". Personally, it is when someone presents something of faith as "True" or "The Knowledge" when the problems start. As I will mention elsewhere, I note the BKWSU are using a further BK neologism, "Universal Spiritual Truths" (tm) to describe their faith. Meta-discussion, yes please ... thataway =>

How about, "Its all true except for when it is not true and then we ignore it"? I am not say positive thinking or Karma is "wrong". I am just asking someone to explain HOW it works, the mechanism. How did Dawn "attract" her death? Was she harbouring murderous thoughts?

I have a long memory, and what cautions me, were the events in the 80s when the then "power of your thoughts" guru - after experience much fame and fortune selling the idea - suffered terribly in an airplane crash. Every one was left thinking, "how could it happen to him ... what about me?". "The Secret" and "Bleepers" probably don't know anything about that story but, again, it introduces other complex unknown variables.

I appreciate that faith and expression of thought does play a part Florence Scovel Shin back in the 1920 and 30s was a master of this but I consider that Dawn's physical family would probably appreciate her being discussed and remembered. And, may be we will hear what happened to her money one day.

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by john morgan » 12 May 2008

The way I see the main topic we are discussing is that each person has his own karma. If we had no karma we would be perfect. The study from one perspective involves the removal of karma and there are various ways of doing this. The function of an umbrella of protection is to allieviate the effect of that karma but it must still be worked through and each person is responsible for his/her own.

The study is one of thought control and creation. Centuries ago people had divined that man's potentiality is divine but that he could also become worse than an animal. Each man has a choice, he also has the freewill to exercise his choice. In today's world, man is unaware of his choice. He will also argue that freewill does not exist. Somehow man has to teach himself. When he hears about becoming the master of his destiny he can desire to reach that state because it is something more than he currently experiences.

The BK teach meditation. Students understand that God is teaching and learn to think of themselves as souls in relationship to a Supreme Soul. Students are encouraged to adopt in their thoughts attitudes, vision, characteristics and actions, the attributes of an angel and each person makes effort to attain an elevated stage. To become an angel from an ordinary human being is no easy task because unlike other studies, every aspect of the person's life and character has to be transformed. An angel is an intermediary between man and god and is instrumental in giving his blessings to the world. These blessings can take the form of knowledge to be imbibed, of opportunity to perform good action and a spiritual transfusion of peace or happiness or both. Transfusions are exceptional help given to those whose aim is to live an elevated life. This as I understand it is the function of the BKWSU.

There are many who become distracted from the study. As soon as one knows better than God separation from his love guidance and blessings takes place, this is not something that god does, it is something that the clever do to themselves. Much is said in the BKWSU about fault finding and negativity because they are deep pits into which a person can fall, perhaps never to be seen in elevated company again. Their friends, who agree with and praise them in the leading of a faithless life are equally lost. In attacking or attempting to destroy the faith that can guide the holder to his full potential as a spiritual being they are at each moment unaware of the damage they could be doing.

Now we are all in the same boat of estrangment from the BK. I guess a useful question to ask ourselves is "If just one person that is very unhappy meets me can I console them, give them hope and strength and guide them to a far better life?"

The possibility of never being able to think highly is my worst nightmare. I am working out my own karma here, I create no thought of hatred or enmity towards the BK or anyone else as it would not further my aim.

That people leave the study is unfortunate. That some people get deeply hurt in the study is a fact. It must be that there is no karmic obstacle that cannot be either greatly alleviated or completely overcome with patience and the right method at the right time. The BKs certainly have the tools, perhaps a little more emphasis on patience would help.

Living a life of love is for me far better than living a life of protest. Where something definitely does not work for you it is necessary to try something else. To speak ones truth or experience is good but to make a crusade out of attacking what one has left is not, for me at any rate.

It must be that almost everyone who has read so far is of the opinion that I am defending the BK. this is only part of the story. What I am for and seem to recognise is the spiritual potential of each of we human beings on this planet. Our spiritual side is well worth our attention. This aspect of ourselves which is so often peripheral is a central element in building a good life. Out of the billions of people on this planet a mere million or so are active BK. Even so a million plus people living and aspiring to live an elevated life is something quite exceptional.

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by fluffy bunny » 12 May 2008

Certainly? So, if "the BKs certainly have the tools" do we have to be patient for their God to work out how to use them to save his "kittens"?

I would say that the BKs are "told" God is teaching them and base their decisions on that. We do not "know" that is God. I must reject that the company of BK is particularly elevated ... although perhaps I am just yet to meet a real one. Critical analysis and objectivity is labeled as "fault finding and negativity" so as to diffuse and distract attention.

I would say that it is far as we can safely say that the BKs initiate individuals into relationship with a channelling entity. Who or what it is, we do not know yet. All we do know is that the evidence shows that you cannot trust what it says or take its words on face value nor its elected representatives. So that faith and those priest of this god needs reassessed.

I might well agree with that the aspiration is exceptional ... I am just naturally concerned, on the basis of such evidence as these deaths and murders, that those aspiration individuals are being misled again.

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by john morgan » 12 May 2008

Hello Ex-I,

That God is teaching the BK is what they believe. In the beginning of the Yagya we are told that many people had visions. That was their experience, not ours. The normal everyday experience of a student of the BK is to get up early (Amrit Vela) they then go to morning class where part of most classes is the reading of a Murli. From study of the Murli students gradually develop a theistic mindset. Faith in God is faith it is not fact.

As the study progresses students lives change and for some the possibility that God is teaching seems highly likely and their faith grows into a deeper faith and perhaps a certainty. The effect of the study in their lives is the proof. To get an insight into spiritual life can take a some time though for some it is quick and easy. At any point the student can decide this is not God and walk away. The only proof that God exists is the lives of those who practise his teachings and the BK do not disappoint in this respect.

If you are saying that the BK are not particularly elevated and it is your truth then the study did not work for you. That you cannot see what you are missing out on is at this time absolutely accurate, and a mercy. We can only see what is in us and to all else we are blind. The aim of the study is not to get insight into someone elses spiritual stage, it is to develop our own.

What is it that a million people are doing but I cannot see? They open centres, teach something, sit in silence, dish out sweetmeats, why? Also the question arises why are you knocking them so hard when you don't even know what they are doing. When the BK look at you they know exactly what your activity is. Am I speaking the truth or am I lying? You don't really know do you? So how can you insist that their faith be reassessed? How also can you hand on heart say talk about being further misled?

How happy are you? Is there any aspect of your life that needs improving? It must be hard to change when you are the leader in creating so much that is negative for your responsibility is to be more vehemently negative than most. Perhaps the BK can help, why not investigate further?

You have the right to choose your part. It is to your credit that all can speak it as it is here. Now do your best :roll:

My, its getting a little warm around here!

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by fluffy bunny » 12 May 2008

It strikes me you are headed way offtopic, blurring into a pre-recorded autopilot mode and starting into personal attack John, because the nut of this topic - the evidence of Dawn's death versus your God's promise - cracks both your partylines; the BK "no harm will come" one and the "we create 100% of our reality" one.

You have a fantasy view of the BKWSU that the hard evidence contradicts. Pray, who are these omniscient BKs you speak of, when did they actually become omniscient (presumably some time after Dawn left for India) and how far does their omniscience actually pervade? As with Jonah and Nineveh, I dare say God will find some good people in the BKWSU but, for me, I want the specific details and hard evidence.

The god of the BKWSU said "no harm", not "no harm except for those of you whose Karma really deserves it and make sure you have life insurance and have written your Will out in our favour". I think you have just inspired me to go speak to Dawn's lokik relatives just as I did individuals that actually witness first hand what really went on at Om Mandli.
Times of India wrote:Taxi driver's naivete led to his arrest - 18 Mar 2004

NEW Delhi: The taxi driver Jyotish Prasad, who allegedly raped the Australian tourist, was arrested probably because he was naive enough to go back to sleep at home in Shahbad village, barely a few hundred metres away from the spot where he dumped the body.

Had Prasad, who was driving a taxi registered with the Airport Authority of India (AAI), cared to escape out of the city, the police would have been left with slim chances of nabbing him.

As it turned out, the owner of the taxi had not bothered to keep a record of the antecedents of the driver. "The union of taxi operators should have ensured that all drivers are registered with them," said a police officer.

That's just the proverbial tip of the problem though. About 600 pre-paid taxis ply from the airport under the supervision of the police. Their operators pay a licence fee to the AAI.
The relevance of this is that Dawn's death kicked off a big fuss for the police who had to be seen bring about changes and deal with the taxi touts. Previously, the Delhi Police actually officially recommended the "pre-paid Taxi Booth for hired transportation", since it is governed by Delhi TRAFFIC POLICE. According to the system you had to pay in advance for Taxi Fare which was already approved by Delhi Transport Authority, Govt. of India for each destination in Delhi.

I have no supporting evidence to say this but, to me at present, it raises against the whole question of "heavy jewelry" - which does not figure in all the reports - as being an excuse to blame the victims and possibly even a bogus. What we need know is for the BKWSU details findings to help complete the picture.

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by john morgan » 12 May 2008

Thanks ex-I,

I hear what you say,

Kindest regards,

John

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by bansy » 17 May 2008

john morgan wrote:How happy are you? Is there any aspect of your life that needs improving? It must be hard to change when you are the leader in creating so much that is negative for your responsibility is to be more vehemently negative than most. Perhaps the BK can help, why not investigate further?
Ha Ha , sould be like going for a second honeymoon. Well, why not ?

I agree with much of what john morgan has said in this thread (although off topic). Today had some time and I went to meet the BKs, some new ones. It was great to see them enjoy what was new. Honeymoon or not. I even pointed out the pitfalls of what spiritual life could or not do for them, but simply the reply was more of a "well, yes, but so what", and I agree. So what, if the BKs enjoy being BKs. It is a positive step for them. Whether it works out for them or not is not of my concern, at least they have something for themselves. There are serious issues that are raised in this forum, and I would no doubt expect the BKWSU are taking notice, but I don't think they (the BKWSU) actually disregarded any of the things, such as this topic. Things move on. People move on. They have to move on. And probably due to this reason of moving on, the BKWSU has more successes than upsets and they don't even have a product to sell as such, it is really up to the individual to take and give what there is.

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by john morgan » 17 May 2008

I like what Bansy has said about moving on. No one is stuck though forgetting that one has the field of all possibilities in which to create can give one that feeling. I like it very much when people are happy, let's send good wishes to the happy new BKs that Bansy met for their study to go well. That angels are happier than human beings is true else there would be no reason to make a distinction. May the Murli not be a conundrum for them, rather may they see in it the way to and an expression of angelic happiness. This is very likely what Dawn was all about.

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by fluffy bunny » 18 May 2008

I'd like to hear a "view from beyond the grave" ... a psychic reading from some dead BK so as to get an overview of it all. As a rule, I do not think that psychic readings are 100% reliable but plotting a few might give us some better coordinates on what is going on.

I disagree on the "product" side though. "Lifestyle" is a major product in developed nations.

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by paulkershaw » 19 May 2008

Now, now ex-l. We all know how you feel about Psychic readings ... so don't go back on yer words now, eh?

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