Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

for concern over cult-related damage, institutional abuse & psychological problems.
Post Reply
User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by fluffy bunny » 10 May 2008

andrey wrote:I think that we should not seek something extraordinary in this thread. Killings happen every day. BKs are just normal people. We cannot extract some moral for the BK
But I disagree. BKs are not just "normal people". They are the chosen few and God, himself, promised to protect them in the Murli. "No harm would come to them", he said. This is the whole point. Why do these abuse keep happening if "God" promises otherwise?

Why is it an important question? Because it is another example of the contradictions between what the god of the BKs says and what happens in reality which creates such cognitive dissonance within BK followers that they just choose to ignore or shut it out. A proof if you like. You want to invest importance into that which may have very little and then quickly remove and ignore it if fails.

It is also good that her memory continues to exists after they have washed the blood away. What will be very interesting to find out is if they "drank any of the blood" (e.g. if she willed anything to the BKWSU and if the Brahma Kumaris accepted the money etc).
Wikipedia wrote:Cognitive dissonance is a psychological state that describes the uncomfortable feeling when a person begins to understand that something the person believes to be true is, in fact, not true.

The term cognitive dissonance describes conflicting thoughts or beliefs (cognitions) that occur at the same time, or when engaged in behaviors that conflict with one's beliefs.

In simple terms, it can be the filtering of information that conflicts with what one already believes, in an effort to ignore that information and reinforce one's beliefs. In detailed terms, it is the perception of incompatibility between two cognitions, where "cognition" is defined as any element of knowledge, including attitude, emotion, belief, or behavior.

andrey
PBK
Posts: 1288
Joined: 13 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by andrey » 10 May 2008

Where does it say no harm will come to them? I have never met it. Will this mean if you jump from the 10th floor you will only squash like animation hero then get up and beat the dust out of the clothes. Why do you try to make BK seem stupid and their God saying stupid things, because your interpret it so literally. There should be some meaning to it where it makes sense. For example, it is said for the end when there will be no more accounts, or it is said for if you are in remembrance, otherwise if there are accounts what will happent with them. Will they be settled just with a promise? It is said at other places that "Whatever is your condition, did Baba put you in this? Did you ask him when you did this and that? Now you have to make effort to clear your accounts."

If someone is chosen by God is a matter of attitude. You can be in the BK and still not feel in such way.

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by fluffy bunny » 10 May 2008

andrey wrote:Where does it say no harm will come to them?
Right at the top of this topic. Do you read the topics or just react to the last post?

Its interesting because your response suggests that the fault is ours for being too ignorant to understand the meaning of the sentence, not that it was unclear or misleading. That requires complete faith that everything spoken, at all times, in all Murlis (although it is not clear when or where this started) is pure and complete truth. And if it is wrong, it is not that it is wrong, it is that we are wrong and too ignorant to pick up what is being said.

This discussion is probably best followed up on another topic, e.g. the 'What is so great about the Murlis?' one. I was expecting a PBK to come forward and say what is quoted below is not said to BKs as a whole - although all of the BKs are surely led to believe and encouraged it is spoken to them - but only to LR or Virendra Dev Dixit.

Or are there terms and conditions attached such as it only applies to that that it was spoken to, or the 108 top souls etc. If so, how do we understand "harm even one hair on your head?". I suggest that most BK hear this as literal.
6/7/1981 Avyakt Bap - Dada Revision Course Murli

Bap Dada is with you. No one can do anything to you. They cannot do anything! it has been said that the kittens remained safe even though they were in the burning furnace. Nothing happened to them.

They cannot harm even one hair on your head. It is not an ordinary being that is with you. It is the Almighty Authority.

andrey
PBK
Posts: 1288
Joined: 13 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by andrey » 11 May 2008

OK, now tell yourself. When you read this do you have the impression that nothing will happen to you, means, no one will rob you, no one will harm you. It is this world. OK how do you think? You don't think in this way, do you. Then why do you think anyone thinks any differently. Are others more stupid then you? Then we see that practically people get hurt. So to think here that Gyan must be false due to this fact, may be also a rusch conclusion. Maybe there is some more of it we may like to find. If these are God words then from one side probably they will be simple being for the ordinary public, but also they may be deep and difficult to undertsand but significant.

It is only fools who speak without meaning or speak. Even a person can say something that can be true. Today even on the ordinary poets in literature class they make so much analyzis and so many things come up. The simplest way to check is that - see people are harmed, so this naturally starts our churning. why. It is said like this here, but also it is said like that there then....and we cah reach to somewhere then we can say no, it cannot be this, because of that then go somewhere else and this way. It is like some quest for truth. Where is this quest for truth when we say" Come on it is all a lie?

Then also it is said take it or leave it. Like here it is said we are whatevere we are. Be with us or leave. Why? Does little critisc mean we don't like you or we like to leave. Can you not bear evens so little critics. So Words of Murli maybe they can bear even a lot of critics, when we say why it is said like this. But it will come out with fruits when we are initially well willed. If we are indeed lovers of truth then we will tend to like to find truth even where it is at lest expected to be. This way some new inetrconnections between points will emerge, some new images, ideas, points, meanings will emerge. I think this is whatever the advanced knowledge do. We can also try to do yourself, but to one point there can be 100 interpretation, but only one of them is most correct. So we can oanly kow that from one sourse that we call it Supreme Soul. We have to check and verify otherwise on our own we can be ailing even further away from teh shore. It is good to sail altogehthe, but is this the right direction. So if the direction is OK, is it possible that this is true then we have to find how.

Whether Murli is true or not is different matter for one to decide.It is still interesting for one to ge deeply in it. Through the churnings some things emerge. I can say for mysef that just lately this churning became more for me after the advanced knowledge. Otherwise for me the Murli was more like bakti practice like reading the word of God and less Gyan. It is seedn also that here this churning tendency, unlimited meaning ect has become intence only after the introduction of the advance knowledge and at some ways it does make difference and sense, but nevertheless it makes it more undertsandable and more exciting.

OK what does kittens mean? And furnace?

Kittens are little. Thy have a mothera nd Father. Where is the mother in the BK. Thena re they kittens. When there is mother and Father in practical form, when kittens are there with them in the furnace there will be no harm for them. Where is the furnace? In Karachi where mother and Father were there practical no one got harmed. If it was just a sample then this may take a bigger form somewhere. It could be a matter of then. It is also said that those who have bakti sanskars left in them will have to leave the body. Please, not these are just may game of churning. There are many hints in the advance knowlege. Whatever for some it may sound like a lie, others may see something inside. It is said for a soul tht is knowledgefull he can even watch a film or read newspaper and tally this with the knowledge and then he may see some things happening with the Yagya, some points will emerge etc.

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by fluffy bunny » 11 May 2008

Andrey, as soon as you stop using a spellchecker, I think you are ranting and I stop reading it. So, sorry, but don't waste your time replying to me.

I don't think the Murlis are reliable at all. I think they contain very little actual wisdom. I think that they do work literally, programming the sub-consciousness of the BKs sitting there in morning class in a light trance or dozing stage.

Whatever the meaning, here we remember another victim of the temporary madness incurred by following the Brahma Kumaris. Long may individuals free themselves from it. That this is your only response to a horrendous crime - a defence of the mediumistic messages - makes me wonder where your head is at.

The god of the BKs said "no harm would come" to the BKs. Therefore he cannot be the infallible 'God of All' as he is billed. Its as simple as that. The more examples of his fallibility, the better. it might waken folks up to that fact. Even you agree although for the sake of good politics, the PBKs say, BapDada is not god but Lekhraj Kirpalani BUT he is under the influence of God. That is all it is ... good politics and a desperate attempt to make good the mistakes of the past.

RIP Dawn. I wish you had not gotten trapped in it and were still living a free life.

User avatar
tom
ex-BK
Posts: 139
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Mahatma Gandhi said first :"God is Truth", ultimately he said "Truth is God"
which made me a member of this forum.

Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by tom » 11 May 2008

Dear ex-l,

Thank you for your determined efforts searching the shocking tragic end of our Sister BK Dawn Griggs and bringing very important facts into sunshine which otherwise would have been swept under the carpet.

My flowers and remembrance for Mothers Day today are for BK Dawn Griggs and for her family and friends.

Tom

john morgan
ex-BK
Posts: 306
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by john morgan » 11 May 2008

ex-l wrote:I don't think the Murlis are reliable at all. I think they contain very little actual wisdom. I think that they do work literally, programming the sub-consciousness of the BKs sitting there in morning class in a light trance or dozing stage.
From what ex-I says here, his experience of morning class and appreciation of the Murli was a little different to mine. It is remarkable that the BK have continued to grow in numbers even though that, from ex-I's perspective, they are offering so little. That all who attend BK classes are not suited to them is clear. I don't know if Andrey has ever attended a BK class, as he is PBK, though some of his writing seems good.

As far as ideals go, Brahma Baba's was and still is presented as an ideal life to live, updated of course! For active BKs, this ideal has value. I recall a particular sister bursting into tears one 18th January in Madhuban, this to my mind was an expression of the great love those who knew BB had for him. He certainly created a remarkable world. BB must have had a lot of patience, he inspired many to devote their lives to Godly Service. Gandhi was also a patient man. Those who do not subscribe to the BK way of live can practice being patient, as Gandhi proved. I like patience very much. Whilst I do not appreciate the many of the subtleties and nuances of many situations patience does help in my efforts to understand.

Dawn Griggs's demise was unfortunate and all here would have prevented it if they had the choice but we do not. Bap Dada's words about what took place were very informative and remain accurate in the light of current information. I am certain that the BKs will implement safety procedures for all BK regardless of a past karmic account being mentioned. Other information will be added to that already here. Commenting on Dawn's rebirth as Bap-Dada did for Dadi Kumarka is unlikely as that could create a precedent for all BK even though the circumstances are rare. There is a faith in the BK community that many who are in touch in one life come into contact in the next one. Perhaps this will happen with Dawn.

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by fluffy bunny » 11 May 2008

It always amazes me how such contradictory events can just cruise in one side of BK's heads and out the other. How desensitized they become to such tragedies and how quickly they are to make up excuses or offer reinterpretations for their god. Anyway, Dawn's writings are linked to, you can make a judgement of her wisdom reading it.

John, you are not daft. The Word of God says, "no harm will come" ... and then you get a horrendous murder, and I mean horrendous with multiple face wounds and a head pounded by a rock, of an elderly woman BK "kitten" on the way to "God's HQ" ... probably to meet with BapDada given the time ... and seemingly carrying a fat donation for the Brahma Kumaris' operation.

How do we square the two? Is his word worth nothing? Did she "leave him" in some way and so suffered?

OK. So say the precedent is set and "God" said "No one can do anything to you. They cannot do anything! ... They cannot harm even one hair on your head" but actually he MEANT something or someone else and we are just ignorant. Then that forces us to ENTIRELY reinterpret all the Murlis on a similar metaphorical basis, a la PBKs. What is it?

Offtopic: Are you telling me you NEVER dozed off in a morning class!?! Please, if you wish to discuss Murli class you will have to demonstrate some 'traffic control' and take it off to another topic.

john morgan
ex-BK
Posts: 306
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by john morgan » 11 May 2008

Hello Ex-I,

Firstly, thanks for saying that I am not daft. I am though considering the creation of a thread entitled, "What to do if the BK give you a tough time" or something similar. The reason for this is not to have a pop at the BK but to smooth the path for those leaving the study.

Whilst I appreciate very much the arguments you are directly presenting to me, why is it that I do not seem to take them as my own? The reason for this is that I wish to learn how to create my own causes and to leave, as much as I can, the rest alone. To spend my life unearthing all, even creating all the reasons why Bap-Dada and the BK are wrong would be something less than I can do. This is nothing against you personally. It is no secret that the BK have no love for me, as is evident by their treatment of my request for further study. Each day I am compelled to create new thought and wish it to be as constructive as possible. So I deliberately reduce the impact of anything that is likely to make me negative angry or disgruntled. Commentary on the activity of others has a price, whilst I am doing it I cannot concentrate on more constructive issues. If they got me, so I get them before they get me or even because they did - its negative. Even if the unvarnished truth is that they did "get me."

It is clear that the person accused of murdering Dawn Griggs was not a BK. Even so it would be very unfair of me to suggest that BapDada was responsible for the words and actions of any BK, all senior sisters and brothers included. Bap Dada speaks his truth and those for whom he is a guide do their best and often their best leaves nothing missing. Had the accused been a BK it is extremely unlikely but not impossible that he would have done the same thing. At various times in my life the knowledge has been invaluable to me, the disentaglement in my own mind of Bap Dada from any BK has been vital in accessing that value. It may be that I urgently require this knowledge later today or tomorrow, this daft person hopes not but karma is karma and I do know that Godly Versions often work for me.

It seems that Dawn died with deep faith, she did not say "but you said no one could harm a hair on my head." Where people have faith it is important to respect that for it can be the tip of a wonderful world into which we have not yet gained insight.

Dawn has been to Madhuban many times before, that she was going again indicates that she had found something there of value.

diiogenes
ex-BK
Posts: 13
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: I reregistered as diogenes on feb 27 -08, but cannot login.
I was the diogenes posting from 2006 as well.
Location: Australia

Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by diiogenes » 11 May 2008

Even so it would be very unfair of me to suggest that BapDada was responsible for the words and actions of any BK, all senior Sisters and Brothers included.
Hi John, considering you have to be surrendered to become a senior, and BKs are requested (by Baba as well, I believe) to treat their views/pronouncements as his, where do you draw the line of responsibility?

On a sombre note, the message Baba supposedly gave, that Dawn left her body with 'Baba' on her lips, while she wasn't afforded the umbrella of his protection from such violence, would seem to create something of a contradiction. This soul was a career counsellor, an intelligent professional, had not long had a book published, drawing on some of the fundamental knowledge of Gyan.

1/ in twenty years service and contact with the BKWSU she hadn't earned/secured enough of Baba's protection to deflect this incident?
2/ in twenty years in Gyan she can die with 'Baba' in her thoughts, but her meditation/account was so lacking as to not have burned out her past life actions sufficiently to avoid such violent death?

john morgan
ex-BK
Posts: 306
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by john morgan » 11 May 2008

Hello Diiogenes,

The following is what I think about your question, it may be inaccurate.

Each person has responsibility for the influences that he creates, this is a universal law.

In the exceptional circumstance that one is sheltering under a divine umbrella of protection and has access to exceptional advice it should be taken with full awareness of personal responsibility.

There may exist times when the advice "Baba is responsible" applies to the work even then personal responsibility exists.

What do you consider to be true?

I suspect that the reason you could not edit your post was that I was replying to it. Interesting that we should almost simultaneously use "the divine umbrella of protection" in our communications.

If you are looking for contradiction or fallibility you will find them.

Kind regards,

John

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by fluffy bunny » 11 May 2008

john morgan wrote:Each person has responsibility for the influences that he creates, this is a universal law.
Could you express this "law" in completion? Are you saying absolutely and 100% completely responsible? How did Dawn create her murder then?

I am not sure it is a "universal law". I know that it is a little bit trendy right now, post "The Secret" and "What the Bleep?" et al. But, not even the Buddha went that far.

john morgan
ex-BK
Posts: 306
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by john morgan » 11 May 2008

ex-l wrote:Could you express this "law" in completion? Are you saying absolutely and 100% completely responsible? How did Dawn create her murder then?

I am not sure it is a "universal law". I know that it is a little bit trendy right now, post "The Secret" and "What the Bleep?" et al. But, not even the Buddha went that far.
Now really ex-I, all this is baby stuff.

You are as capable as I informing reasons why this may or may not be true. Let's wait for Diiogenese's response to my question then we can all pool our resources - or explore our differences.

Perhaps another thread?

Kind regards,

John

diiogenes
ex-BK
Posts: 13
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: I reregistered as diogenes on feb 27 -08, but cannot login.
I was the diogenes posting from 2006 as well.
Location: Australia

Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by diiogenes » 12 May 2008

There may exist times when the advice "Baba is responsible" applies to the work even then personal responsibility exists. What do you consider to be true?
I don't differ with what you've said, up to the point of your above sentence. Once Baba is at the point of responsibility for our welfare it means a power over and above our personal ability (otherwise there's no need for God) - regardless of what we think. By all means, use our common sense to preserve our interests and welfare. But we've been told, as ex-l has quoted and I remember from the Murlis - in good faith, with an honest heart and rememberance, we are under the umbrella of his protection. Under this promise, the small misjudgement Dawn made is in no way commensurate with a failure and removal from Baba's protection- at the level of losing her life in such a fashion.

That we don't know her past births is the only slightly redeeming aspect for what is otherwise a conundrum and contradiction of Baba's promise.
If you are looking for contradiction or fallibility you will find them.
Not in God, John. They don't exist in the Supreme Soul, Almighty Authority.

So why do they exist in this situation? Are you trying to say there's fine print in the Murli's like there is in insurance contracts? Dawn did not 'riddle me this' effectively enough to earn or deserve Baba's protection? Your view is tending to come across like blind faith. And we've been told we have the knowledge, what God's promises are, that remove any need for further blind faith.

john morgan
ex-BK
Posts: 306
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by john morgan » 12 May 2008

Hello Diiogenes,

You seem very knowledgeable about such matters. The identifying of the only redeeming feature would have been way beyond me.

There are imponderables for me in this situation, for example exactly when were the words about "Cannot harm a hair on your head" spoken and to whom and to exactly what situation(s) did they apply?

Another imponderable could be be the possible karmic relationship between Dawn and the accused and/or any accomplice.

Yet another may be the content of the interaction between Dawn and the cab driver on that particular day.

On reflection your logic may need a tweak or two.

You are well aware that I am no spokesman for the BK or Bap-Dada, if the reason for this discussion is to understand the way things are then your enquiry should be directed towards them. To use this particular thread to further a personal agenda may be considered distasteful as who can say what effect this discussion as it stands may have on Dawn's friends or family were they to visit this forum. At this point It may be considerate to clean this thread up and move the more volatile aspects elsewhere.

Kindest regards,

John

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest